Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Guardian_Doge]

Prom has an issue with the dream world stuff and them not being their own space-times

I posted a direct scan saying they're other realities, they have the exact same effect as something in reality would, and other pieces that act as supportive evidence.
So I don't really understand the problem here.

 

[Malomtek]

Putting the beef that you have with the others aside for a second what's your input on the Tenshi feat I gave

No beef. As for the Tenshi "feat", I don't think a lunatic howl from a mad god threatening to "destroy Heaven and Earth" and "tame the land" simultaneously can ever be taken at face value, or even that seriously to begin with.

 

[Mobi2]

No beef. As for the Tenshi "feat", I don't think a lunatic howl from a mad god threatening to "destroy Heaven and Earth" and "tame the land" simultaneously can ever be taken at face value, or even that seriously to begin with.

What about the part where she shaking all of heaven

 

[Mobi2]

I posted a direct scan saying they're other realities, they have the exact same effect as something in reality would, and other pieces that act as supportive evidence.
So I don't really understand the problem here.

I don't have a particular issue with it. Prom is the one that's waiting for everyone else's response on the matter I just brought up the Tenshi heaven stuff as a buffer before we downgrade to anything else that's too drastic.

 

[Malomtek]

What about the part where she shaking all of heaven

What about it? I don't see it posted anywhere in this thread.

 

[Mobi2]

What about it? I don't see it posted anywhere in this thread.

Tenshi	私は、比那名居天子 泣く子も昇天する天人だ！ ひれ伏せい！	I am Tenshi Hinanawi, the celestial who'll ascend even crying children! Bow before me!
Joon	こいつ、やばすぎる 天界を震わす こんな出鱈目なパワー 今まで感じたことがないわ	Uh, this is bad. Really bad. What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens? I've never felt anything like it.

 

[Malomtek]

Tenshi	私は、比那名居天子 泣く子も昇天する天人だ！ ひれ伏せい！	I am Tenshi Hinanawi, the celestial who'll ascend even crying children! Bow before me!
Joon	こいつ、やばすぎる 天界を震わす こんな出鱈目なパワー 今まで感じたことがないわ	Uh, this is bad. Really bad. What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens? I've never felt anything like it.

"What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens?"

Joon, not being a celestial, would have no idea whether "the heavens" (and I'm noting the lack of "all of" in there), in the sense of afterlife otherworlds, are being literally shaken by Tenshi. Even if we took that at face value, "the heavens" might just be referring to the actual sky of Earth, or maybe even outer space, "the heavens" as a term being very vague in this specific situation. But since there's not much reason to believe that "shaking even the heavens" amounts to anything other than a turn of phrase - again, Joon is not a celestial and there's no reason in particular for her to be able to sense "heavenly" disturbances - this amounts to nothing more than narrative fluff for the player to know how super-serious a threat Tenshi is.

And I honestly can't imagine Tenshi shaking "all of the heavens" (your claim, not the text) without any of the other celestials, or maybe even that enigmatic "Lord of Heaven" mentioned a few times in some source books, jumping in just to see what the hell's going on.

 

[Mobi2]

"What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens?"

Joon, not being a celestial, would have no idea whether "the heavens" (and I'm noting the lack of "all of" in there), in the sense of afterlife otherworlds, are being literally shaken by Tenshi. Even if we took that at face value, "the heavens" might just be referring to the actual sky of Earth, or maybe even outer space, "the heavens" as a term being very vague in this specific situation. But since there's not much reason to believe that "shaking even the heavens" amounts to anything other than a turn of phrase - again, Joon is not a celestial and there's no reason in particular for her to be able to sense "heavenly" disturbances - this amounts to nothing more than narrative fluff for the player to know how super-serious a threat Tenshi is.

And I honestly can't imagine Tenshi shaking "all of the heavens" (your claim, not the text) without any of the other celestials, or maybe even that enigmatic "Lord of Heaven" mentioned a few times in some source books, jumping in just to see what the hell's going on.

Even though they were fighting in heaven it's literally the stage in the game. Joon is a god that has a primordial form can't see and understand what even is heaven when Miko a mere hermit can tell that the occult ball that Sagume created has occult power that was infinitely flowing out of it?

 

[Mobi2]

Also, why would shaking the heavens be relegated to a small portion of it? "oh he shook the earth" "Nah he shook Deleware"

 

[Mobi2]

@Promestein what are your opinions on this?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Is shaking the Heavens a feat? Legit question btw, not trying to debunk it or anything. It kinda reminds me of Jiren shaking the World of Void. If you shake an infinite sized realm, is it a High 3-A feat?

 

[Mobi2]

Is shaking the Heavens a feat? Legit question btw, not trying to debunk it or anything. It kinda reminds me of Jiren shaking the World of Void. If you shake an infinite sized realm, is it a

Currently from the discussion Prom, Reth, and I have agreed to it being Multi-galaxy (not shaking it, but the size of the place) due to showing galaxies in the background of the fight.

 

[Malomtek]

Even though they were fighting in heaven it's literally the stage in the game. Joon is a god that has a primordial form can't see and understand what even is heaven when Miko a mere hermit can tell that the occult ball that Sagume created has occult power that was infinitely flowing out of it?

"Heaven (天界 Tenkai, lit. Celestial World) is a collection of separate realms existing above the Earth. One of them, Bhavaagra (有頂天 Uchouten, lit. Summit of the existent world), is the setting of most final battles in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, and can be reached by climbing the Youkai Mountain. Bhavaagra is also where Tenshi Hinanawi and her family live."

Literally the first paragraph of the Touhou wiki. Bhava-agra isn't "the Heaven", it's a "heaven", one that basically amounts to the personal realm of Tenshi. This is exactly the kind of blatant misrepresentation of Touhou canon that @Promestein was talking about.

And why would we presume that Joon having a "primordial form" would give her weird cosmic senses in her physical manifestation? Do the "primordial forms" of the gods even have minds in the typical sense anyway?

Miko is not Joon, and we shouldn't be arbitrary granting entirely new abilities to certain characters just because a presumed "lower" character has those abilities.

 

[Mobi2]

"Heaven (天界 Tenkai, lit. Celestial World) is a collection of separate realms existing above the Earth. One of them, Bhavaagra (有頂天 Uchouten, lit. Summit of the existent world), is the setting of most final battles in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, and can be reached by climbing the Youkai Mountain. Bhavaagra is also where Tenshi Hinanawi and her family live."

Literally the first paragraph of the Touhou wiki. Bhava-agra isn't "the Heaven", it's a "heaven", one that basically amounts to the personal realm of Tenshi. This is exactly the kind of blatant misrepresentation of Touhou canon that @Promestein was talking about.

And why would we presume that Joon having a "primordial form" would give her weird cosmic senses in her physical manifestation? Do the "primordial forms" of the gods even have minds in the typical sense anyway?

Miko is not Joon, and we shouldn't be arbitrary granting entirely new abilities to certain characters just because a presumed "lower" character has those abilities.

First off even if it's just Bhava-agra it's shown to have multiple galaxies so it wouldn't even matter in the first place. Why would Joon not living there make her inherently unable to sense the Tenshi clone's power anyway if anything that's an ability upgrade.

 

[Mobi2]

Also, don't get me on the misrepresentation of Touhou canon did you forget I was the one to point out that Suika heaven feat was a mistranslation? If anything I'm downgrading the verse compared to everyone else. What do I have to gain when it comes to blatantly misrepresenting information when I'm trying to get to the turth.

 

[Mobi2]

also, I hate to break it to you Joon uses Tenkai 天界

Joon	こいつ、やばすぎる 天界を震わす こんな出鱈目なパワー 今まで感じたことがないわ	Uh, this is bad. Really bad. What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens? I've never felt anything like it.

 

[Malomtek]

First off even if it's just Bhava-agra it's shown to have multiple galaxies so it wouldn't even matter in the first place.

Yes, so it's likely at least the size of multiple galaxies.

I was about to say something about how our "lights in dimensions" standards are such that random pinpoints or spots of light in a dimension are not assumed to be stars by default (that's also for @Promestein too), but if Bhava-agra contains visibly galaxy-shaped structures, then what can I say really....other than they might be "pseudo-galaxies" created by equally fake "dimension lights" and do not necessarily scale to even the smallest real galaxies in size.

Why would Joon not living there make her inherently unable to sense the Tenshi clone's power anyway if anything that's an ability upgrade.

Because now you're just assuming that Joon has cosmic senses, and trying to rationalize it in a decidedly circular fashion with "primordial form" and "she's greater than a 'mere' hermit".

also, I hate to break it to you Joon uses Tenkai 天界

Joon	こいつ、やばすぎる 天界を震わす こんな出鱈目なパワー 今まで感じたことがないわ	Uh, this is bad. Really bad. What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens? I've never felt anything like it.

So? Again, "heavens" is a decidedly generic and vague term here that could mean any number of things, there is no reason for Joon of all people to know for certain that actual "celestial worlds" are literally being shaken by Tenshi, and none of the other celestials seem too bothered by the supposed shaking of all their entire realms by Tenshi.

 

[Mobi2]

Yes, so it's likely at least the size of multiple galaxies.

I was about to say something about how our "lights in dimensions" standards are such that random pinpoints or spots of light in a dimension are not assumed to be stars by default (that's also for @Promestein too), but if Bhava-agra contains visibly galaxy-shaped structures, then what can I say really....other than they might be "pseudo-galaxies" created by equally fake "dimension lights" and do not necessarily scale to even the smallest real galaxies in size.


Because now you're just assuming that Joon has cosmic senses, and trying to rationalize it in a decidedly circular fashion with "primordial form" and "she's greater than a 'mere' hermit".


So? Again, "heavens" is a decidedly generic and vague term here that could mean any number of things, there is no reason for Joon of all people to know for certain that actual "celestial worlds" are literally being shaken by Tenshi, and none of the other celestials seem too bothered by the supposed shaking of all their entire realms by Tenshi.

If ZUN wanted to write something other than the tenkai realms he already established he would've already done so. Also "psuedo galaxies"? the intention is pretty clear that those are galaxies otherwise they wouldn't have made it into the game. We'll wait for Prom I think I've been pretty consistent in me giving my information without trying to intentionally give false.

 

[Malomtek]

If ZUN wanted to write something other than the tenkai realms he already established he would've already done so.

Everything I said about the vagueness of the term "heavens" still applies even if we take the characters for "celestial world" into account. The "celestial world" could still mean just the Earth's sky (just as well, since Heaven as a whole is depicted as a realm existing just above Earth's atmosphere in Touhou cosmology, so it can't be very big to begin with), outer space, some transcendental afterlife realm, or even just Bhava-agra alone. Keep in mind that the Japanese usage of the term "world", even in contexts such as this, can be just as, if not even more vague and broad than anything in the West.

Also "psuedo galaxies"? the intention is pretty clear that those are galaxies otherwise they wouldn't have made it into the game.

I'm just considering how current standards for how "dimension lights" aren't automatically stars, and logically extending it to galaxy-like structures seen in dimensions. Don't blame me, blame the system.

 

[Promestein]

Shaking the Heavens is shaking the Heavens. Tenkai means Tenkai. Heaven is also legitimately huge.

 

[Malomtek]

Shaking the Heavens is shaking the Heavens

But which definition of "heaven"?

Tenkai means Tenkai.

But in which sense?

Heaven is also legitimately huge.

But by what measure?

And why haven't any of the other celestials appeared to notice Tenshi shaking the heavenly realms?

 

[Promestein]

I don't see any reason to think that Tenkai is referring to anything but the only context it exists in for Touhou. You're splitting hairs at this point. We don't have reason to believe that it's referring to anything else, unlike the Tengai statement. As far as I can tell Tenshi's feat is more or less legitimate, though I'm a bit iffy about Heaven being 3-B in size.

Things like Heaven and Hakugyokurou exist strangely in relation to the Earth and Gensokyo. Yeah, Heaven exists above the Earth in some sense, but it's also itself made up of different worlds and such.

Why are the primordial gods Low 2-C?

 

[Malomtek]

I don't see any reason to think that Tenkai is referring to anything but the only context it exists in for Touhou. You're splitting hairs at this point. We don't have reason to believe that it's referring to anything else, unlike the Tengai statement. As far as I can tell Tenshi's feat is more or less legitimate, though I'm a bit iffy about Heaven being 3-B in size.

That still doesn't explain why none of the other celestials seem to notice Tenshi shaking their collective world.

Why are the primordial gods Low 2-C?

Something about them predating the universe and each one helping to create reality. More specifically, it was determined that all of the innumerable/"8 million" Touhou deities existed in some abstract and "nameless" primordial state in which all things where conjoined together in an endless "sphere of chaos", and it was only when the gods starting giving things "names" and therefore defining concepts and the boundaries between concepts that the universe formed into what it currently is in the Touhou world.

 

[Mobi2]

That still doesn't explain why none of the other celestials seem to notice Tenshi shaking their collective world.

Because that fight only lasted for one stage in Antinomy of common flowers, and the shaking was only brought up during that stage.

 

[Malomtek]

Because that fight only lasted for one stage in Antinomy of common flowers, and the shaking was only brought up during that stage.

And that matter's why? Shaking the heavens is still shaking the heavens, no matter how "short" it lasts.

 

[Mobi2]

And that matter's why? Shaking the heavens is still shaking the heavens, no matter how "short" it lasts.

You do realize it's not even out of character for Tenshi to shake vast distances right? That was the entire plot of SWR where she did it twice. It's literally a common occurrence for that to happen. People in Heaven could just be used to it at this point.

 

[Promestein]

It's absolutely a common thing for Tenshi to do and other Celestials barely give a shit about anything and spend their time indulging, most likely none of them would give a shit in all honesty, until something actually dangerous happened

 

[Pixy]

It's absolutely a common thing for Tenshi to do and other Celestials barely give a shit about anything and spend their time indulging, most likely none of them would give a shit in all honesty, until something actually dangerous happened

Celestials's Logic

Tenshi shake the heaven twice : I sleep

Someone in Gensokyo try to reach heaven : Real Shit !?

 

[Malomtek]

You do realize it's not even out of character for Tenshi to shake vast distances right? That was the entire plot of SWR where she did it twice. It's literally a common occurrence for that to happen. People in Heaven could just be used to it at this point.

It's absolutely a common thing for Tenshi to do and other Celestials barely give a shit about anything and spend their time indulging, most likely none of them would give a shit in all honesty, until something actually dangerous happened

Then I guess Tenshi's heaven-shaking feat is legitimate then.

Also @Promestein you asked what makes the primordial gods Low 2-C, but I'm still stuck on how many Touhou characters are rated 2-C/low multiversal on their profiles.

Hecatia Lapislazuli

Hecatia Lapislazuli (ヘカーティア・ラピスラズリ) is a mysterious Goddess of Hell who governs the Hells of the moon, the Earth, and Otherworlds. She has a separate body in each of the three worlds and can act independently with each of them. Once, she was the main leader of the Ministry of Right and Wrong...

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Kanako Yasaka

Kanako Yasaka (八坂　神奈子) is the current goddess of the Moriya Shrine, following her victory over Suwako during the Great Suwa War, thousands of years in the past. Due to her dependence on faith, which was scarce in the Outside World, she moved her shrine to Gensokyo so she could collect it more...

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Yatagarasu

Yatagarasu was the avatar of Amaterasu and the Personification of the Sun. It used to be a giant crow living in the sun. However, seemingly after Houyi shot down the sun, it was found deceased. Following this, Kanako planned to make a certain underworld raven a living nuclear reactor by making...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon God (Touhou Project)

The Dragon (龍, Ryū), also called Dragon God (龍神, Ryūjin) is, according to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, the highest god of Gensokyo. All living things, whether human or youkai, worship the dragon god. The dragon lives in sea or sky or rain, and regardless of the Great Hakurei Border, the...

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Lord Tsukuyomi

Lord Tsukuyomi is the leader and ruler of the Lunar Capital. Very little is known about him. Tier: At least 2-C | Low 2-C Key: Physical World | Nameless Form Name: Lord Tsukuyomi Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Unknown, likely Male Age: Predates reality itself Classification: Lunarian Powers and...

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Kaguya Houraisan

Kaguya Houraisan (蓬莱山 輝夜, Houraisan Kaguya) is the former princess of the Moon, banished to Earth for consuming the Hourai Elixir to become immortal. There, she dwelt among the humans and eventually grew to love her new home. Her beauty attracted many suitors, but she refused to marry any of...

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Doremy Sweet

Doremy Sweet is a Baku who resides in the Dream World and is its ruler. Tier: 2-C Name: Doremy Sweet Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Female Age: Unknown Classification: Youkai, Baku Powers and Abilities: Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Can create, manipulate, destroy, and eat...

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Just to name a few.

 

[Mobi2]

Celestials's Logic

Tenshi shake the heaven twice : I sleep

Someone in Gensokyo try to reach heaven : Real Shit !?

real celestial logic: kicking Tenshi out for gobbling peaches, but not shaking vast distances several times.

 

[Mobi2]

Then I guess Tenshi's heaven-shaking feat is legitimate then.

Also @Promestein you asked what makes the primordial gods Low 2-C, but I'm still stuck on how many Touhou characters are rated 2-C/low multiversal on their profiles.

Hecatia Lapislazuli

Hecatia Lapislazuli (ヘカーティア・ラピスラズリ) is a mysterious Goddess of Hell who governs the Hells of the moon, the Earth, and Otherworlds. She has a separate body in each of the three worlds and can act independently with each of them. Once, she was the main leader of the Ministry of Right and Wrong...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kanako Yasaka

Kanako Yasaka (八坂　神奈子) is the current goddess of the Moriya Shrine, following her victory over Suwako during the Great Suwa War, thousands of years in the past. Due to her dependence on faith, which was scarce in the Outside World, she moved her shrine to Gensokyo so she could collect it more...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yatagarasu

Yatagarasu was the avatar of Amaterasu and the Personification of the Sun. It used to be a giant crow living in the sun. However, seemingly after Houyi shot down the sun, it was found deceased. Following this, Kanako planned to make a certain underworld raven a living nuclear reactor by making...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon God (Touhou Project)

The Dragon (龍, Ryū), also called Dragon God (龍神, Ryūjin) is, according to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, the highest god of Gensokyo. All living things, whether human or youkai, worship the dragon god. The dragon lives in sea or sky or rain, and regardless of the Great Hakurei Border, the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Lord Tsukuyomi

Lord Tsukuyomi is the leader and ruler of the Lunar Capital. Very little is known about him. Tier: At least 2-C | Low 2-C Key: Physical World | Nameless Form Name: Lord Tsukuyomi Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Unknown, likely Male Age: Predates reality itself Classification: Lunarian Powers and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kaguya Houraisan

Kaguya Houraisan (蓬莱山 輝夜, Houraisan Kaguya) is the former princess of the Moon, banished to Earth for consuming the Hourai Elixir to become immortal. There, she dwelt among the humans and eventually grew to love her new home. Her beauty attracted many suitors, but she refused to marry any of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Doremy Sweet

Doremy Sweet is a Baku who resides in the Dream World and is its ruler. Tier: 2-C Name: Doremy Sweet Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Female Age: Unknown Classification: Youkai, Baku Powers and Abilities: Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Can create, manipulate, destroy, and eat...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Just to name a few.

They are 2C from the dream world and Doremy as a Baku being stated to not be that strong of a youkai from a SCoOW interview. Though prom has a contention with the dream world being 2C we're just waiting on the others to make their points before we come to a final decision.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I leave for a few hours and now we're discussing 3-B touhou? What the hell?

(Most of this is directed at Promestein but it might apply to other people's arguments, who knows)

Apologies if some of these topics have been previously addressed, I missed a lot and it's hard to take in everything all at once.

Okay, starting off, I'm gonna mention that there are still a handful of universal feats that could be used. The Occult Balls are stated to have infinite energy flowing out of them (Sagume created the one in question so she should scale), Youmu's spell card that we used to argue for infinite speed covers an infinite area using power drawn from the moon, and Eirin can use Klein Bottles, which contain infinite mass and are 4D (she uses this as an attack via one of her spell cards, so it should be acceptable for AP).

I have a big issue with implying that Akyuu was just referring to former hell in that article, because PMiSS came out 2 years before SA. Why would she be referring to a concept that literally did not exist at the time of writing? To put it another way, why would ZUN have a character reference a location he hadn't even designed yet? It's a massive leap in logic to assume ZUN was talking about former hell in that instance, and the authorial intent was clearly to have Akyuu refer to hell as a broad concept, not just one specific location that didn't even exist yet. So in my opinion, throwing away one of the only decisive statements regarding the size of heaven and the netherworld using impossible logic like this is completely ridiculous.

Also, Akyuu's inaccuracies are either due to her misinterpreting actual canon information (thinking Kaguya and Eirin are humans, thinking Mokou came from a clan of youkai hunting ninjas) or being deliberately fed false information (youkai abilities are self reported, so it's easy to assume some of them were lying to make themselves look good, the least debatable example of which is Yukari's 'undermining all of reality' statement), neither of which have evidence to apply to her statement on hell and the Netherworld. And if you want to argue she was just speculating, she also speculates regarding Sakuya's origins, but in that article she clearly states she is speculating. If she were doing the same in the article where she compares hell and the Netherworld, she would say so. The statement itself being vague doesn't really disprove anything, either. It's the only definitive statement we have regarding the size of two extremely important Otherworlds, so unless we have explicit evidence that it is incorrect, it's the best we have to go off of. We have to work with what we're given, and touhou never gives that much.

Last thing regarding this point. ZUN has outright stated that there are no borders between hells, and trying to separate them is essentially pointless. Make of that what you will.

As for Miko absorbing Kaguya's infinite corridor being an outlier, keep in mind that it was stated to be a 'hermit art', which implies other hermits should be capable of replicating it (Seiga, Kasen, and Futo). Also, something being 'weird' or 'hardly explained' does not immediately disqualify a feat. What else would even need to be explained about the feat, anyways? She's clearly absorbing infinite space. There's not an implication or anything, it's right there in the text.

I also wanna ask if we're absolutely sure that Suika destroying the sky isn't destroying Heaven, as these statements from PMiSS and AoCF would imply. To me it sounds like shattering the sky is equivalent to shattering Heaven.

Finally, in regards to Kaguya's infinite speed stuff... is it seriously being rejected because scaling other characters to it would make the ability useless? That's... not really a valid reason to reject a feat. If a character can fight evenly with an amped character, they should scale to whatever stats that amp gives. Just because it makes one facet of Kaguya's abilities less useful than they otherwise would be doesn't mean it isn't valid scaling. And even then, it doesn't make the ability useless because not everyone has infinite speed. And while you say we can't assume the full context of Mokou and Kaguya's fights, can we at least agree that Kaguya would be making full use of her abilities in these fights to the death? And that Mokou clearly has at least some way of keeping up with infinite speed? Our options here are either 1. Mokou can't actually keep up with Kaguya and gets stomped every time they fight, 2. Mokou has some unseen ability that just so happens to counter infinite speed that is never shown or mentioned, or 3. Mokou scales to an amped Kaguya. I shouldn't have to explain why 3 is the most likely option among these. Touhou is a series devoid of context for a lot of things, so in cases like these we just have to go with the most logical option.

There's also Dream World stuff, but someone is making their own post about that so I'll hold off.

So in my opinion, using the context and evidence that you've given, it still seems like there are a handful of feats left to discuss, Akyuu's statement regarding hell is not referring to former hell, so Heaven and the Netherworld are still infinite via that statement as a result, so Tenshi shaking Heaven is H3-A, Miko's corridor absorbing feat is still valid (and it should scale to 3 other characters, who have their own scaling chains), Suika destroying Heaven is possibly still valid, and infinite speed scaling is still valid. Having a few notable feats debunked hurts, but as it stands now I don't think it's enough to downgrade the verse below H3-A. And given that 4 separate characters would have an L2-C feat (remember that you cannot affect space without affecting time in touhou), I think a flat L2-C rating is much more appropriate. I'd obviously like to keep the 2-C ratings, but that's reliant on Dream World Stuff, which I'm leaving to someone far more knowledgeable on that topic.

Also @Promestein you asked what makes the primordial gods Low 2-C, but I'm still stuck on how many Touhou characters are rated 2-C/low multiversal on their profiles.

Because we've yet to reach an agreement on what the ratings should be. Nothing is being changed until then.

 

[Mobi2]

I leave for a few hours and now we're discussing 3-B touhou? What the hell?

(Most of this is directed at Promestein but it might apply to other people's arguments, who knows)

Apologies if some of these topics have been previously addressed, I missed a lot and it's hard to take in everything all at once.

Okay, starting off, I'm gonna mention that there are still a handful of universal feats that could be used. The Occult Balls are stated to have infinite energy flowing out of them (Sagume created the one in question so she should scale), Youmu's spell card that we used to argue for infinite speed covers an infinite area using power drawn from the moon, and Eirin can use Klein Bottles, which contain infinite mass and are 4D (she uses this as an attack via one of her spell cards, so it should be acceptable for AP).

I have a big issue with implying that Akyuu was just referring to former hell in that article, because PMiSS came out 2 years before SA. Why would she be referring to a concept that literally did not exist at the time of writing? To put it another way, why would ZUN have a character reference a location he hadn't even designed yet? It's a massive leap in logic to assume ZUN was talking about former hell in that instance, and the authorial intent was clearly to have Akyuu refer to hell as a broad concept, not just one specific location that didn't even exist yet. So in my opinion, throwing away one of the only decisive statements regarding the size of heaven and the netherworld using impossible logic like this is completely ridiculous.

Also, Akyuu's inaccuracies are either due to her misinterpreting actual canon information (thinking Kaguya and Eirin are humans, thinking Mokou came from a clan of youkai hunting ninjas) or being deliberately fed false information (youkai abilities are self reported, so it's easy to assume some of them were lying to make themselves look good, the least debatable example of which is Yukari's 'undermining all of reality' statement), neither of which have evidence to apply to her statement on hell and the Netherworld. And if you want to argue she was just speculating, she also speculates regarding Sakuya's origins, but in that article she clearly states she is speculating. If she were doing the same in the article where she compares hell and the Netherworld, she would say so. The statement itself being vague doesn't really disprove anything, either. It's the only definitive statement we have regarding the size of two extremely important Otherworlds, so unless we have explicit evidence that it is incorrect, it's the best we have to go off of. We have to work with what we're given, and touhou never gives that much.

Last thing regarding this point. ZUN has outright stated that there are no borders between hells, and trying to separate them is essentially pointless. Make of that what you will.

As for Miko absorbing Kaguya's infinite corridor being an outlier, keep in mind that it was stated to be a 'hermit art', which implies other hermits should be capable of replicating it (Seiga, Kasen, and Futo). Also, something being 'weird' or 'hardly explained' does not immediately disqualify a feat. What else would even need to be explained about the feat, anyways? She's clearly absorbing infinite space. There's not an implication or anything, it's right there in the text.

I also wanna ask if we're absolutely sure that Suika destroying the sky isn't destroying Heaven, as these statements from PMiSS and AoCF would imply. To me it sounds like shattering the sky is equivalent to shattering Heaven.

Finally, in regards to Kaguya's infinite speed stuff... is it seriously being rejected because scaling other characters to it would make the ability useless? That's... not really a valid reason to reject a feat. If a character can fight evenly with an amped character, they should scale to whatever stats that amp gives. Just because it makes one facet of Kaguya's abilities less useful than they otherwise would be doesn't mean it isn't valid scaling. And even then, it doesn't make the ability useless because not everyone has infinite speed. And while you say we can't assume the full context of Mokou and Kaguya's fights, can we at least agree that Kaguya would be making full use of her abilities in these fights to the death? And that Mokou clearly has at least some way of keeping up with infinite speed? Our options here are either 1. Mokou can't actually keep up with Kaguya and gets stomped every time they fight, 2. Mokou has some unseen ability that just so happens to counter infinite speed that is never shown or mentioned, or 3. Mokou scales to an amped Kaguya. I shouldn't have to explain why 3 is the most likely option among these. Touhou is a series devoid of context for a lot of things, so in cases like these we just have to go with the most logical option.

There's also Dream World stuff, but someone is making their own post about that so I'll hold off.

So in my opinion, using the context and evidence that you've given, it still seems like there are a handful of feats left to discuss, Akyuu's statement regarding hell is not referring to former hell, so Heaven and the Netherworld are still infinite via that statement as a result, so Tenshi shaking Heaven is H3-A, Miko's corridor absorbing feat is still valid (and it should scale to 3 other characters, who have their own scaling chains), Suika destroying Heaven is possibly still valid, and infinite speed scaling is still valid. Having a few notable feats debunked hurts, but as it stands now I don't think it's enough to downgrade the verse below H3-A. And given that 4 separate characters would have an L2-C feat (remember that you cannot affect space without affecting time in touhou), I think a flat L2-C rating is much more appropriate. I'd obviously like to keep the 2-C ratings, but that's reliant on Dream World Stuff, which I'm leaving to someone far more knowledgeable on that topic.

Because we've yet to reach an agreement on what the ratings should be. Nothing is being changed until then.

I left the tenkai multi galaxy stuff as a placeholder for the time being just before we get to arguing any other feat to be lower. Instead of the sky which Tenshi was talking about, tengai 天蓋 is mostly translated to be canopy so suika's feat is a mistranslation. I haven't argued in favor of universal or above yet because I'm too tired from mid-terms atm.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's fair. And if the translation stuff has already been discussed at length, I'll drop it, though I would still like to see what others have to say.

 

[Pixy]

They are 2C from the dream world and Doremy as a Baku being stated to not be that strong of a youkai from a SCoOW interview. Though prom has a contention with the dream world being 2C we're just waiting on the others to make their points before we come to a final decision.

Not Strong Youkai !? You're serious !?
I prefer to encounter with Suika or Yukari more than just meet doremy...

According to Touhou 16.5 : Violet Detector

Sumireko got f_ck up by doremy who trapped her inside dream world and have to encounter her " friends " but dream version
But the shock scene is..... everyone you seen in your life can turn to be hostile to you in dream
And...... For unexplainable reason there Yukari's dream version too including Sumireko's dream version

And it's even said by doremy herself... If you die in dream world you probably dead....


Basically... This is what you call not that strong ? The Youkai that can trapped you inside Endless Nightmare... And if you dead in your nightmare... You will dead in your reality world too

 

[Mobi2]

Not Strong Youkai !? You're serious !?
I prefer to encounter with Suika or Yukari more than just meet doremy...

According to Touhou 16.5 : Violet Detector

Sumireko got f_ck up by doremy who trapped her inside dream world and have to encounter her " friends " but dream version
But the shock scene is..... everyone you seen in your life can turn to be hostile to you in dream
And...... For unexplainable reason there Yukari's dream version too including Sumireko's dream version

And it's even said by doremy herself... If you die in dream world you probably dead....


Basically... This is what you call not that strong ? The Youkai that can trapped you inside Endless Nightmare... And if you dead in your nightmare... You will dead in your reality world too

This was the statement that Mokou was using to my knowledge. I guess the contradiction here would be Reisen saying that she's the most dangerous youkai in the dream world. Though danger doesn't have to mean power it might just be her hax or something like that.

Reisen	ば、獏ばくだって？ そんな馬鹿な…… なんだって夢の中ここで 一番危険な妖怪が私の前に	A... a baku? This is ridiculous... What's the most dangerous youkai in the Dream Worldthis place doing here in front of me?

 

[Pixy]

This was the statement that Mokou was using to my knowledge. I guess the contradiction here would be Reisen saying that she's the most dangerous youkai in the dream world. Though danger doesn't have to mean power it might just be her hax or something like that.

Reisen	ば、獏ばくだって？ そんな馬鹿な…… なんだって夢の中ここで 一番危険な妖怪が私の前に	A... a baku? This is ridiculous... What's the most dangerous youkai in the Dream Worldthis place doing here in front of me?

Hold on I turning on my computer so I can send you the image

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I still think assuming Doremy having control over dream versions of characters makes her superior to the real versions is an NLF. Everyone who sleeps has a dream version of themselves, which includes Sagume, and I would certainly hope we all agree Sagume outclasses Doremy.

 

[Mobi2]

I still think assuming Doremy having control over dream versions of characters makes her superior to the real versions is an NLF. Everyone who sleeps has a dream version of themselves, which includes Sagume, and I would certainly hope we all agree Sagume outclasses Doremy.

You could also say it's Reisen's knowledge so she doesn't have to be right on the matter, and it could just be her authority over the place.

 

[Pixy]

This was the statement that Mokou was using to my knowledge. I guess the contradiction here would be Reisen saying that she's the most dangerous youkai in the dream world. Though danger doesn't have to mean power it might just be her hax or something like that.

Reisen	ば、獏ばくだって？ そんな馬鹿な…… なんだって夢の中ここで 一番危険な妖怪が私の前に	A... a baku? This is ridiculous... What's the most dangerous youkai in the Dream Worldthis place doing here in front of me?

I already see ZUN mention about that thank you
But we have to accept the fact : Get trapped inside endless nightmare is terrible than Encounter with Gensokyo's Youkai Cuz once you get trapped in endless.. nightmare there no exist way for you.... great this high school girl get rescue ( more like just help a bit ) by okina so Her Endless nightmare end..
here image I just mention