Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[AKM sama]

and of course staff members that are fine with the whole infinite speed stuff.

Reading the explanations given by Prom, it seems like that was already rejected.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

We still need to come up with a proper scaling chain IIRC, and of course staff members that are fine with the whole infinite speed stuff.

What scaling chain? Doremy's?

 

[Antvasima]

I wish I could unilaterally change this forum's speed standards, just to see you whine like the incontinent little boy you are when I downgrade all your favorite verses to shit.

Malomtek, you have made some good points earlier, but you stepped over the line of acceptable behaviour with this comment, and need to make a much greater effort to be reasonably polite in the future.

Anyway, I tried to get Saikou and others interested in this thread before, but they did not respond.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, big thanks for helping out above Promestein.

So what are the conclusions here so far regarding what changes that we need to apply?

 

[RethPo]

Ive missed a lot. Im guessing proms okay with characters scaling to doremy or no? Ill read later.

Also i was gonna do a quick revision for this but i think it can be done here. Alice and Patchouli should only be 2-C with magic and 9-B physically. Alice only harms mokou in imperisable night with doll magic and doesnt really attack her through any physical means so only doll magic should scale, and both of them are only rivals to marisa in terms of magic. The main reason they should be downgraded though is that its stated that most magicians have physically weak bodies (at least ones that have been doing it and using mercury for a long time). And alice and patchouli are the main examples given for it.

Yet theyre being listed as infinitely more durable than almost everyone in gensokyo and physically scaling to some of the most powerful youkai in the series. That should be changed.

I guess if theres anything we could get quick agreement or disagreement here. Its only two characters and pretty simple.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't think any staff members have given their thoughts on Youmu's possible infinite attack speed, and as RethPo just brought up we still have a possible Alice/Patchouli downgrade to discuss, but besides those things I think we're just about done here.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait for Promestein to make decisions first.

 

[Malomtek]

Malomtek, you have made some good points earlier, but you stepped over the line of acceptable behaviour with this comment, and need to make a much greater effort to be reasonably polite in the future.

Understood.

Anyway, big thanks for helping out above Promestein.

So what are the conclusions here so far regarding what changes that we need to apply?

Apparently 2-C/low multiversal Touhou is still accepted (somehow), but infinite speed is a no-go.

It's not the sword swing by itself that the character's are dodging, it's the attack as a whole, which includes the infinitely expanding part. Nowhere did I say that Youmu's physical attacks with her swords can reach those speeds, it's the projectiles they create, which, if you've ever seen any Touhou gameplay at all, are the part that needs to be dodged. Which, just to reiterate, includes the infinitely expanding part.

If the physical sword swing itself doesn't scale to to the slash's mystical moon magic "expansion", then I don't see a reason for any other Touhou character's movement to scale at all either.

From the pictures you've shown, the attack itself doesn't seem to be much anything other than a series of "sword slash lines" emanating from Youmu, each of which have clearly portrayed and even pointed "tips" or endings, which belies any of them being actually "infinite" in size, and means that you don't really need infinite speed to dodge it or anything. It's not some "wave" or anything like the Skyward Strike or the Getsuga Tensou, which is just as well, because an "infinitely expanding sword slash wave" would be undodgeable in a Touhou game.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Apparently 2-C/low multiversal Touhou is still accepted (somehow), but infinite speed is a no-go.

Do you really want a repeat of your last downgrade thread?

If the physical sword swing itself doesn't scale to to the slash's mystical moon magic "expansion", then I don't see a reason for any other Touhou character's movement to scale at all either.

Because the 'expansion' is what they're dodging, not the sword slash. What part about this aren't you getting? If character A pulls out a gun and shoots characters B and they dodge it, we measure character B's speed based on dodging the bullet, not how fast character A was able to pull out their gun.

From the pictures you've shown, the attack itself doesn't seem to be much anything other than a series of "sword slash lines" emanating from Youmu, each of which have clearly portrayed and even pointed "tips" or endings, which belies any of them being actually "infinite" in size, and means that you don't really need infinite speed to dodge it or anything. It's not some "wave" or anything like the Skyward Strike or the Getsuga Tensou, which is just as well, because an "infinitely expanding sword slash wave" would be undodgeable in a Touhou game.

Yes, because those bullets are individual pieces of an attack. A singular bullet does not determine the full range of a character's attack. The entire thing, put together, expands infinitely. And keep in mind that spell cards in touhou are virtually never represented in game on a 1 to 1 basis with what they look or behave like in lore. Statements or descriptions of a spell card take precedence over what is shown in game, because the latter can be extremely vague, and due to the nature of touhou as a whole, they will almost never be represented in a way that fully contextualizes what a character is actually capable of. This is a case where the visual representation of a spell card doesn't line up with it's lore based description, and in this case the latter is what we should use to determine the effects of this spell card.

 

[Malomtek]

Because the 'expansion' is what they're dodging, not the sword slash. What part about this aren't you getting? If character A pulls out a gun and shoots characters B and they dodge it, we measure character B's speed based on dodging the bullet, not how fast character A was able to pull out their gun.

Aimdodging is still a thing lol.

Yes, because those bullets are individual pieces of an attack. A singular bullet does not determine the full range of a character's attack. The entire thing, put together, expands infinitely.

When did moon magic sword slashes magically turn into "bullets" that have to be "pieced together" to get the "full attack"?

Statements or descriptions of a spell card take precedence over what is shown in game

Why? You can't pull this "gameplay and story segregation" card when this "infinite" attack is literally only shown, displayed, portrayed, or otherwise visually represented whatsoever in gameplay, and therefore the gameplay is the only frame of reference for how it "really looks", and what the gameplay shows doesn't look very good for "infinite width moon magic sword slashes".

How on earth can the direct visual representation of a spell card be "extremely vague", or even any more vague than the description of the spell card itself? That's just bullshit cubed.

To commemorate this occasion of absurd wank dying yet again, I have drawn a little comic for all to enjoy. I challenge anyone on the side of "infinite speed" 2hu to make something as beautiful as this.

Just assume Goku packed some Hakai energy into that Kamehameha.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

-_-

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Honestly I could sit here all day and debate you, but if you're gonna resort to drawing my favorite character dying just so you can brag about infinite speed being 'debunked', I don't really see a reason. You're acting like a child, and I don't debate children.

 

[Malomtek]

Honestly I could sit here all day and debate you, but if you're gonna resort to drawing my favorite character dying just so you can brag about infinite speed being 'debunked', I don't really see a reason. You're acting like a child, and I don't debate children.

You need to stop taking yourself, your character, and this hobby in general so seriously. I'm just having fun here, and isn't this hobby all about fun?

 

[Pixy]

Aimdodging is still a thing lol.


When did moon magic sword slashes magically turn into "bullets" that have to be "pieced together" to get the "full attack"?


Why? You can't pull this "gameplay and story segregation" card when this "infinite" attack is literally only shown, displayed, portrayed, or otherwise visually represented whatsoever in gameplay, and therefore the gameplay is the only frame of reference for how it "really looks", and what the gameplay shows doesn't look very good for "infinite width moon magic sword slashes".

How on earth can the direct visual representation of a spell card be "extremely vague", or even any more vague than the description of the spell card itself? That's just bullshit cubed.

To commemorate this occasion of absurd wank dying yet again, I have drawn a little comic for all to enjoy. I challenge anyone on the side of "infinite speed" 2hu to make something as beautiful as this.

Just assume Goku packed some Hakai energy into that Kamehameha.

I didn't see he has Immortal negate in his profile could you explain ?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Don't bother debating him, he'll just keep drawing bad mspaint comics in response.

 

[Malomtek]

I didn't see he has Immortal negate in his profile could you explain ?

It's just a joke comic. Don't take it too seriously.

 

[Pixy]

Well so it's mean he absolute stupid How he think Son Goku will kill Mukou while Kaguya and Mokou try to kill each other so many many years ?

 

[RethPo]

Just looks like theyre trolling tbh.
Anyway for youmus attack speed. If these are her projectile slashes that characters can dodge and they actually cross the entirety of the infinite netherworld then you can make a case for it.

I do kinda get the argument that infinite speed characters are having clear issues related to getting places on time (even though most of their destinations mftl+ would get them to in seconds or way less). But at the same time ive seen tonnes of mostly game characters rated as infinite to immeasurable yet not instantly going to destinations or traveling through time better yet when they should be entirely capable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Putting all that aside, can we please actually address Youmu's speed feat now? I'm more than willing to provide instances where a spell card's portrayal in a game does not line up with how it's stated to look or function from a lore perspective.

 

[Malomtek]

I'm more than willing to provide instances where a spell card's portrayal in a game does not line up with how it's stated to look or function from a lore perspective.

Whenever such things are the case, I believe it is the "lore perspective" that should be scrutinized much more than the direct visual depictions, which offer far less for interpretation.

 

[RethPo]

Lore perspective if reliable should always be taken over what happens under gameplay mechanics... unless of course the "lore perspective" is clearly unreliable statements or just an exaggeration to hype up the attacks or something.

 

[Malomtek]

Lore perspective if reliable should always be taken over what happens under gameplay mechanics... unless of course the "lore perspective" is clearly unreliable statements or just an exaggeration to hype up the attacks or something.

I think visual depictions of attacks in gameplay can just be handwaved away as "gameplay mechanics".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm sorry to tell you this, but we already let spell card descriptions take precedence over their depiction in game. Stuff like Parsee's spell cards, which based solely on their in game depiction would not give her any additional abilities, are described by Marisa in a way that clearly gives her plant, fire, and fear manipulation. We cannot judge Touhou stats purely by what is visually shown; it's very nature as a series makes that impossible.

 

[Malomtek]

Stuff like Parsee's spell cards, which based solely on their in game depiction would not give her any additional abilities, are described by Marisa in a way that clearly gives her plant, fire, and fear manipulation.

And unless we actually see any of such aftereffects depicted either in gameplay or story events, there's not much reason to take them seriously.

In the battles between visuals and claims, visuals should almost always take precedence.

 

[RethPo]

I think visual depictions of attacks in gameplay can just be handwaved away as "gameplay mechanics".

If the lore contradicts it then yes. Stuff like the elder scrolls would be a good example but point is, most developers arent going to show characters breaking reality, covering city wide ranges in every attack, moving at ftl speeds, doing feats impossible for a normal humanoid body etc in actual gameplay. Thats the reason things are explained...

 

[Malomtek]

If the lore contradicts it then yes.

If the "lore" contradicts it, then the lore is either inaccurate or plain wrong.

Stuff like the elder scrolls would be a good example but point is, most developers arent going to show characters breaking reality, covering city wide ranges in every attack, moving at ftl speeds, doing feats impossible for a normal humanoid body etc in actual gameplay.

So the Touhou gameplay is "willing" to/capable of portraying characters moving at superhuman speeds and shooting energy bullets and other assorted projectiles out of every pore in their body, both "feats impossible for a normal humanoid body", but can't/"won't" show an energy bullet shooting up flames or causing plants to spring up or any other minor aftereffects these bullets are "supposed" to have via their descriptions and "lore"?

That sounds both arbitrary and ridiculous.

 

[RethPo]

"If the lore contradicts on screen gameplay then its wrong"... you really dont want to be convinced on anything do you?

Because half the attacks wouldnt be able to fit on the screen or be remotely dodgeable. And they dont even have to animate the character sprites themselves doing that... Just the danmaku being fired

You do know how ridiculous it is to take touhous danmaku and visuals as the absolute peak of what theyre doing right? Great fairy wars has the weakest enemies in the verse firing the most complex danmaku patterns. Yet all the enemies there are incapable of even comparing to someone like yukari (whos danmaku in lunatic modes are arguably less difficult) due to their danmaku just not being good enough. But on screen logic just makes weak fairies danmaku nearly the most complex in the series huh?

In fact spellcard fights just look and function outright different in fighting games yet its all under the same system and set of rules.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, if you have an issue with that, then it might be best saved for another thread. The idea that Touhou feats and abilities are invalid because they are not depicted accurately in gameplay is something that would have extremely wide ranging implications for the verse as a whole. This would be the single biggest revision to the verse in a long time, so good luck with that. But as it stands right now, this wiki does accept lore statements taking precedence over visuals. If the admins come to an agreement and take your side, fine, whatever. But you've been down this road before with the whole "Touhou characters can't be universal because we never see universal destruction when they fight" thing, so I can't imagine this proposal will go much better.

Anyways, I'm basing my reasoning here off of what is currently accepted for the verse. If that's an issue for you, make your own CRT.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well personally I wouldn't disregard the infinite speed yet. There are other feats that could work for that, outside of Kaguya's thing.
First, we have that Eientei was once a place existing outside time and history, and we know that the IN cast was able or freely moving there.
There's also the WBaWC cast being able of travel throughout the Sanzu River and getting into Higan, which as we know, it's an infinite place
More explanation here.
Reimu directly says it:

For your information, I'm headed to Hell!
Crossing the river is just one step along that path.

And in the same game they travelled throughout the Hell to the Animal Realm, so that's another feat.
Also there's the thing of Youmu's attacks, which I think should work.
We also has things like the LoLK staff travelling throughout Dream World, which has many realities inside within it, to go to the Lunar Capital, and in SSiB Rei'sen travelled from the moon to Gensokyo, so we have some more stuff there.

 

[Shmooply]

we have that Eientei was once a place existing outside time and history

Being able to move in a place with no time doesn't count as an infinite speed feat anymore, so...

Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable.

So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I don't see why that wouldn't count as being capable of moving at infinite speed, because if you can move in a place in which speed cannot be defined then it should mean that you are essentially transcending the capability of moving in linear time.
But anyway, I'm not willing to go against the rules here, so F.

 

[Antvasima]

So did Promestein accept 2-C, but reject infinite speed then?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Shmooply is correct. Fiction is generally far too inconsistent for us to be able to give every character that has ever moved in a timeless void infinite speed. They have to demonstrate it in practice as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The three feats originally brought up were rejected, but there are still a few feats to be discussed because this thread is somehow incapable of dying.

 

[Malomtek]

"If the lore contradicts on screen gameplay then its wrong"... you really dont want to be convinced on anything do you?

Because half the attacks wouldnt be able to fit on the screen or be remotely dodgeable. And they dont even have to animate the character sprites themselves doing that... Just the danmaku being fired

You do know how ridiculous it is to take touhous danmaku and visuals as the absolute peak of what theyre doing right? Great fairy wars has the weakest enemies in the verse firing the most complex danmaku patterns. Yet all the enemies there are incapable of even comparing to someone like yukari (whos danmaku in lunatic modes are arguably less difficult) due to their danmaku just not being good enough. But on screen logic just makes weak fairies danmaku nearly the most complex in the series huh?

In fact spellcard fights just look and function outright different in fighting games yet its all under the same system and set of rules.

I don't care about how "complex" the bullet hells are. I just care about whether the aftereffects displayed in their visual depictions square up with what's claimed about them in the "lore", and they don't, especially not the "infinite width" moon slashes.

We see the moon slashes, they have clear beginnings, middles, and ends in screen. It is not that difficult to depict a fully screen-crossing slash for a supposedly "infinite width" moon slice. Therefore, they're not infinite.

It's that simple.

Well, if you have an issue with that, then it might be best saved for another thread. The idea that Touhou feats and abilities are invalid because they are not depicted accurately in gameplay is something that would have extremely wide ranging implications for the verse as a whole. This would be the single biggest revision to the verse in a long time, so good luck with that. But as it stands right now, this wiki does accept lore statements taking precedence over visuals. If the admins come to an agreement and take your side, fine, whatever. But you've been down this road before with the whole "Touhou characters can't be universal because we never see universal destruction when they fight" thing, so I can't imagine this proposal will go much better.

Anyways, I'm basing my reasoning here off of what is currently accepted for the verse. If that's an issue for you, make your own CRT.

I'm not talking about the feats and abilities in themselves, but certain descriptions of certain spell cards. If those descriptions don't square up with what's in the games, then they have to be scrutinized at length.

First, we have that Eientei was once a place existing outside time and history, and we know that the IN cast was able or freely moving there.

Simply moving in a higher-dimensional realm doesn't give one infinite/immeasurable speed or whatever.

Dear lord are we going to be dealing with 5-D Touhou next?

There's also the WBaWC cast being able of travel throughout the Sanzu River and getting into Higan, which as we know, it's an infinite place
More explanation here.

I don't see anything in what you've linked that makes the Sanzu River an "infinite place".

And in the same game they travelled throughout the Hell to the Animal Realm, so that's another feat.

Isn't the Animal Realm in Hell in the Touhou universe? I don't see why that would specifically measure out as some "infinite speed" feat.

We also has things like the LoLK staff travelling throughout Dream World, which has many realities inside within it, to go to the Lunar Capital, and in SSiB Rei'sen travelled from the moon to Gensokyo, so we have some more stuff there.

And why are we assuming that dream "realities" are just as big as the physical universe again? I'm pretty sure it's been agreed that dream "realities" are just smaller subsections of the Dream World anyway.

 

[Shmooply]

this thread is somehow incapable of dying.

What's next? It spits fire as well?

 

[Malomtek]

What's next? It spits fire as well?

Well if you considered my little comic...

 

[Antvasima]

The three feats originally brought up were rejected, but there are still a few feats to be discussed because this thread is somehow incapable of dying.

Okay, feel free to do so then.

Anyway, Malomtek, you promised to try to be on your best behaviour. Immediately starting to draw mocking animations is not the proper way to do so.

 

[Malomtek]

So did Promestein accept 2-C, but reject infinite speed then?

I'm pretty sure Prom hasn't even mentioned 2-C yet, and she rejected all the original justifications for infinite 2hu speed. Of course, to "keep the dream alive" (i.e. push the agenda further), another Touhou supporter came with even more supposedly "infinite speed" feats that I now have to debunk.

Prom hasn't logged back in yet to comment on all this, unfortunately.

Anyway, Malomtek, you promised to try to be on your best behaviour. Immediately starting to draw mocking animations is not the proper way to do so.

I apologize for potentially breaking the rules here. I understand, and I won't post any more "mocking animations" (it was a comic, actually) in these kinds of "hot" threads again, because such things would be seen as extremely spiteful by the other side.

 

[RethPo]

I don't care about how "complex" the bullet hells are. I just care about whether the aftereffects displayed in their visual depictions square up with what's claimed about them in the "lore", and they don't, especially not the "infinite width" moon slashes.

We see the moon slashes, they have clear beginnings, middles, and ends in screen. It is not that difficult to depict a fully screen-crossing slash for a supposedly "infinite width" moon slice. Therefore, they're not infinite

You just completely ignored my actual point there on why taking gameplay visuals over lore especially in touhou is ridiculous and said "i dont care". Why are you even debating here if you dont care?

Yeah... its easy to animate slashes with INFINITE WIDTH on a screen on a game where you have to dodge on screen bullet patterns... I dont even think you have any clue what youre talking about at this point

Could someone also bring up which spellcard youmu does this in? Might help a bit with context.