Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Shmooply]

Could someone also bring up which spellcard youmu does this in? Might help a bit with context.

Sure thing.

 

[Shmooply]

Unless you're talking about where is it stated that the spell card has infinite width, then here:

Yes.

 

[RethPo]

I see...... for starters. If anything is infinite itd be its length. Infinite width would... basically make it undodgeable and break spellcard rules. You sure thats not mistranslated at all?

Second if its a feat at all it might be more of a range/attack speed feat feat. Youmu crosses a finite distance and characters just move out of her way which is reacting to just youmu. But the beam coming from the slash is whats infinite in speed and would already be out the way from pretty much aimdodging. Least thats how im seeing it. Unless you scale it to the other attacks. Seems to support a possible rating if anything. Proms word might be best here

Edit: Unless they mean the "bullets of light" she forms around you spread out with infinite width which would be just infinite range.

 

[Malomtek]

You just completely ignored my actual point there on why taking gameplay visuals over lore especially in touhou is ridiculous and said "i dont care". Why are you even debating here if you dont care?

No, you're ignoring my point, which is that "what is shown" > "what is stated" in a visual medium such as a video game. And if the purported aftereffects of a spell card (plant manipulation, fear manipulation, fire manipulation, etc) don't like up with what is shown, then what is stated about that spell card should be scrutinized further.

Yeah... its easy to animate slashes with INFINITE WIDTH on a screen on a game where you have to dodge on screen bullet patterns... I dont even think you have any clue what youre talking about at this point

"It is not that difficult to depict a fully screen-crossing slash for a supposedly "infinite width" moon slice."

"Fully screen-crossing", meaning that you can't see the ends of the "slash lines" from either side of the screen.

 

[Mobi2]

I see...... for starters. If anything is infinite itd be its length. Infinite width would... basically make it undodgeable and break spellcard rules. You sure thats not mistranslated at all?

Second if its a feat at all it might be more of a range/attack speed feat feat. Youmu crosses a finite distance and characters just move out of her way which is reacting to just youmu. But the beam coming from the slash is whats infinite in speed and would already be out the way from pretty much aimdodging. Least thats how im seeing it. Unless you scale it to the other attacks. Seems to support a possible rating if anything. Proms word might be best here

Edit: Unless they mean the "bullets of light" she forms around you spread out with infinite width which would be just infinite range.

無限 translates to infinite and you can check the original translation here (just scroll down to Youmu's.) https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Spell_Cards/Last_Word
I'm pretty indifferent to the speed debate here so I'll let you guys decide. Just wanted to show that it isn't a mistranslation.

 

[RethPo]

Actually this gives the best context https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Youmu_Konpaku's_Spell_Cards

"A Spell Card where she lunges at you at high speed while reflecting the light of the moon. The chilly radiance will have you seeing stars. After a long charge-up period, she slashes at you right as the moonlight wavers, and you're surrounded by bullets of light in a single instant. A fearsome, indiscriminate attack."

So in other words. The "power" (or light) of the moon makes the width of the attack infinite and the bullets shown are supposde to be the bullets of light being reflected.

So basically. Youmus summoning bullets covering an infinite range, which move around the character that they have to dodge. Its actually an arguably solid ftl feat for reimu, but just infinite range for youmu and its one she has to charge up.

No, you're ignoring my point, which is that "what is shown" > "what is stated" in a visual medium such as a video game. And if the purported aftereffects of a spell card (plant manipulation, fear manipulation, fire manipulation, etc) don't like up with what is shown, then what is stated about that spell card should be scrutinized further.

Even though youve made no attempt to adress what i said and just repeated yourself again... it seems like you dont see the difference between "ignoring my points" and "doesnt agree with me"

No. What is stated takes priority over game mechanics and visuals. The animators cant animate it and blatantly dont in touhous case (inconsistent danmaku patterns etc). If you wanna use this logic to downgrade basically every vg franchise out there that shows almost zero hax in game visuals then be my guest.

"It is not that difficult to depict a fully screen-crossing slash for a supposedly "infinite width" moon slice."

"Fully screen-crossing", meaning that you can't see the ends of the "slash lines" from either side of the screen.

I-it literally crosses the full length of the screen... what?

 

[Mobi2]

Actually this gives the best context https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Youmu_Konpaku's_Spell_Cards

"A Spell Card where she lunges at you at high speed while reflecting the light of the moon. The chilly radiance will have you seeing stars. After a long charge-up period, she slashes at you right as the moonlight wavers, and you're surrounded by bullets of light in a single instant. A fearsome, indiscriminate attack."

So in other words. The "power" (or light) of the moon makes the width of the attack infinite and the bullets shown are supposde to be the bullets of light being reflected.

So basically. Youmus summoning bullets covering an infinite range, which move around the character that they have to dodge. Its actually an arguably solid ftl feat for reimu, but just infinite range for youmu and its one she has to charge up.

Even though youve made no attempt to adress what i said and just repeated yourself again... it seems like you dont see the difference between "ignoring my points" and "doesnt agree with me"


I-it literally crosses the full length of the screen... what?

Funnily enough in grimoire of Marisa in one of Eirin's spell cards Marisa said light can't travel infinitely iirc.

 

[RethPo]

Funnily enough in grimoire of Marisa in one of Eirin's spell cards Marisa said light can't travel infinitely iirc.

Eh prolly true (havent read yet). Though marisas word isnt exactly the most reliable most of the time.

Edit: This the context btw

Edit2 Eh? Can i not post ******** links here?

Edit3 EHHH??? Whys the word M.an.g.a.d.e.x not allowed?

Edit4 just remove the spaces lmao

https: //ma n g ade x. org/chapter/f921567e-4a87-4320-81c4-0b847e93ad09/61

 

[Mobi2]

Eh prolly true (havent read yet). Though marisas word isnt exactly the most reliable most of the time.

Nah this one was under the context of the genealogy danmaku adding onto itself over and over again oddly. She was also given the information by Eirin.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Simply moving in a higher-dimensional realm doesn't give one infinite/immeasurable speed or whatever.

Dear lord are we going to be dealing with 5-D Touhou next?

When did I said it was higher dimensional?

I don't see anything in what you've linked that makes the Sanzu River an "infinite place".

We know beforehand that the Sanzu Rive is infinite. That's like one of the points being stated in Onsokuno's blog and in the profiles.

Isn't the Animal Realm in Hell in the Touhou universe? I don't see why that would specifically measure out as some "infinite speed" feat.

Nope. They are directly separated worlds. They are part of the Hell Society, indeed, but they aren't really in the same reality.

And why are we assuming that dream "realities" are just as big as the physical universe again? I'm pretty sure it's been agreed that dream "realities" are just smaller subsections of the Dream World anyway.

It wasn't, we all have agreed with the Dream World's realities having the same size as the "real" ones. But even so, it doesn't refutes that they are still travelling from Gensokyo to the Lunar Capital.

 

[Malomtek]

What is stated takes priority over game mechanics and visuals.

Not when certain attacks literally only appear in gameplay.

I-it literally crosses the full length of the screen... what?

If you look closely, you might note that the "sword lines" have pointed endpoints which just stop at the edge of each screen. My view is that an "infinite width sword slash" shouldn't even have visible endpoints.

When did I said it was higher dimensional?

You said it was beyond time and history, which I assumed amounted to essentially the same thing in this case.

We know beforehand that the Sanzu Rive is infinite. That's like one of the points being stated in Onsokuno's blog and in the profiles.

Can you link the blog for me then?

Nope. They are directly separated worlds. They are part of the Hell Society, indeed, but they aren't really in the same reality.

Isn't "Hell Society" just Hell itself, and all its subsections?

It wasn't, we all have agreed with the Dream World's realities having the same size as the "real" ones. But even so, it doesn't refutes that they are still travelling from Gensokyo to the Lunar Capital.

Considering the mechanics of everything that would be involved in this feat, that's more dimensional travel rather than sheer speed.

Unless you're saying that dreams "physically" exist somewhere in outer space, which not even ZUN agrees with.

 

[Promestein]

Sanzu's size varies and we can't use that to judge speed.

"First, we have that Eientei was once a place existing outside time and history, and we know that the IN cast was able or freely moving there."

This isn't a speed feat.

"We also has things like the LoLK staff travelling throughout Dream World, which has many realities inside within it, to go to the Lunar Capital, and in SSiB Rei'sen travelled from the moon to Gensokyo, so we have some more stuff there."

Not a quanitifiable speed feat. We don't know how much space they traveled.

 

[RethPo]

Not when certain attacks literally only appear in gameplay.


If you look closely, you might note that the "sword lines" have pointed endpoints which just stop at the edge of each screen. My view is that an "infinite width sword slash" shouldn't even have visible endpoints.

Ummmm, i did just explain that it wasnt the sword slashes but the bullets that would go on forever. Either way though itd be more infinite range for youmu still.

 

[Promestein]

Yes, more infinite range than speed and even then I'm kinda iffy on the entire thing, it's a single statement from a one-off amped attack

 

[RethPo]

I see.

Well since youre here now prom i guess i should ask if it isnt going too off course. What do you think about the characters new scaling to doremy and being 2-C? Basing on zun saying doremy as a baku isnt a super impressive youkai and doremy recreating two infinite realms in the dream world.

And whaddya think of this? Since it should be a relatively simple downgrade

Alice and Patchouli should only be 2-C with magic and 9-B physically. Alice only harms mokou in imperisable night with doll magic and doesnt really attack her through any physical means so only doll magic should scale, and both of them are only rivals to marisa in terms of magic. The main reason they should be downgraded though is that its stated that most magicians have physically weak bodies (at least ones that have been doing it and using mercury for a long time). And alice and patchouli are the main examples given for it.

Yet theyre being listed as infinitely more durable than almost everyone in gensokyo and physically scaling to some of the most powerful youkai in the series. That should be changed.

 

[Malomtek]

Ummmm, i did just explain that it wasnt the sword slashes but the bullets that would go on forever. Either way though itd be more infinite range for youmu still.

Well the "bullets" (if you're referencing the "sword slash lines") didn't go on forever either, so it's arguably not even a range feat.

 

[RethPo]

Well the "bullets" (if you're referencing the "sword slash lines") didn't go on forever either, so it's arguably not even a range feat.

NOOOOO DA PURPLE BULLETS!

 

[Promestein]

I'm sorta bewildered at how many blatant misinterpretations of canon material are showing up here. Like, is it not, like, page 2 information that the Sanzu River's size varies based on the usage of Komachi's ability? I'm not a Touhou expert or anything and even I can instantly call bullshit there. It's literally in the second paragraph of the wiki page; if you bring up something so blatantly incorrect again I'm going to have to assume that you're deliberately misrepresenting information to wank Touhou.

Infinite world size, show me the proof, yes. Couldn't it just be High 3-A, anyways? Where's the proof of Doremy making spacetimes? Spacetime proofs, yes. Show me them.

 

[RethPo]

Infinite world size, show me the proof, yes. Couldn't it just be High 3-A, anyways? Where's the proof of Doremy making spacetimes? Spacetime proofs, yes. Show me them.

Well the only context ive been given is recreating the netherworld and land of the backdoor in sumirekos dream. Both scaling larger than hell and are entirely seperate realms normally speaking and all. I do kinda agree the feat could easy just be high 3-A though.

Although i find how hell is treat weird though. Hell is a collection of different (i think) otherworlds referred to as different hells at some points. One of which happens to be infinite which makes any realm larger than hell now infinite in size. Like we treat "hell" as referring to all of them collectively.

 

[Promestein]

Again, I questioned the consistency of the Netherworld being infinite in size (the statement is very temporally disconnected from the statement on Hell's size), and I dunno if it even makes sense for the Netherworld to be bigger than Hell given how Hell is described. Where does the statement as to the Land of the Backdoor's size come from?

And yes, I agree, Hell is a connection of realms that includes at least an infinite sized realm, and is referred to collectively as infinite in an interview.

 

[RethPo]

Iiiii dont know about the land of the backdoor. Saikou should know actually. I think ive heard its larger than heaven or has a seemingly endless statement?

I dunno if it even makes sense for the Netherworld to be bigger than Hell given how Hell is described

Hmmm... Could you possibly elaborate on that point a little further? You mean like with hell being described as a collective orrr?

 

[Promestein]

Seemingly endless doesn't mean anything.

Hmmm... Could you possibly elaborate on that point a little further?

The Netherworld is a single realm that brings in a single type of spirit. Hell is a collection of massive realms that take in a massive quantity of spirits and is explicitly described as huge because of it. The Netherworld statement also comes from PMiSS, which is written in universe and is full of inaccuracies (Akyuu calls Eirin and Kaguya humans, for example), and the quote is just "It's said that the Netherworld today is larger than Hell."

"It's said."

The Netherworld's size was also increased to prevent overcrowding (At least according to Akyuu); note that Former Hell was abandoned for exactly that reason, overcrowding, which says to me that it seems more likely that it's being compared to Former Hell.

 

[Promestein]

Honestly, with all of this in mind, I'm VERY iffy about using size comparisons between the different worlds for any scaling whatsoever. The Netherworld size comparison is from a work full of intentional inaccuracies and itself not stated with confidence, and though Heaven is certainly bigger than the Netherworld, wouldn't it make more sense for Heaven to be compared to Hell as similar in size? Heaven itself is made up of multiple realms too, after all - but it is much more selective than Hell, which is so huge because of the massive quantity of spirits it governs.

In other words I see no reason to assume Heaven is infinite in size, that any specific Hell besides Avici is infinite in size, and that the Netherworld is infinite in size.

What justifications for High 3-A~2-C remain?

 

[RethPo]

That is... a really good point.

The justifications for low 2-C and high 3-A were the following (copy and pasted from your lewdness)

-Yukari Yakumo: Supporting High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of messing with the Netherworld's boundary.

-Suika Ibuki: High 3-A feat of Heaven busting. (It was brought up earlier that this might be a mistranslation as well)

-Miko: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating Senkai AND absorbing Kaguya's infinite corridor.

(This is me: Senkai i dont think is infinite though from what i know. It was stated that it can be expanded infinitely which yknow, means it is created as whatever given size (maybe large planetary due to having an earth and moon distance in one of the stages) and can be altered and expanded at will)

-Kaguya: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating the infinite corridor.

-Komachi: High 3-A(Low 2-C?) feat of extending the Sanzu river to be infinite.

-Doremy: High 3-A feat of re-creating Afterlives and the Land of the Backdoor in the dream world.

-Eiki: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of extending the Netherworld to be infinite, alongside her fellow Yama.

 

[Promestein]

We seemingly do not treat infinite expansion / contraction of space as a High 3-A feat. I can think of characters who can stretch space to such a degree that aren't High 3-A (Fortissimo Odin, for example); we treat it as a sort of hax, apparently, judging by how the majority of pages I've seen have treated it, which would dismiss all remaining feats besides Miko's.

And that's assuming Senkai is actually infinite in size. What's the source?

 

[RethPo]

Going by saikous blog.

• This was a world called Senkai, which could be expanded infinitely into any nook or cranny to form a new world for the hermits.

Sooooo in other words... it could be expanded infinitely manually... not outright infinite.

The infinite corridor is done by kaguya (and hermits) piecing together infinite pieces of space-time so make what you will of that.

 

[Promestein]

Mmm, I don't think that works. The statement on the wiki is explained by saying that infinite space can exist in any crack in the ground; and thus, you can go anywhere. Not just Senkai; but also Senkai. I don't think that's an infinite size feat.

All Kaguya really has to do is just loop the corridor; she doesn't have to create infinite space if she just loops space in on itself so you go through a repeating hall over and over and over again. I said this in the thread that this upgrade was initially presented in, if I'm remembering properly.

The quote is

Made with a power that infinitely links miniscule gaps in space-time together.

Honestly no idea how to quantify this, or what Miko does, due to how little it's elaborated on. I'd say Miko's feat of seemingly absorbing infinite space is the only High 3-A feat left, but it's weird, hardly explained, and when every other High 3-A feat has been heavily disputed, it looks like it could be an outlier.

 

[Urshani]

Mmm, I don't think that works. The statement on the wiki is explained by saying that infinite space can exist in any crack in the ground; and thus, you can go anywhere. Not just Senkai; but also Senkai. I don't think that's an infinite size feat.

All Kaguya really has to do is just loop the corridor; she doesn't have to create infinite space if she just loops space in on itself so you go through a repeating hall over and over and over again. I said this in the thread that this upgrade was initially presented in, if I'm remembering properly.

The quote is

Honestly no idea how to quantify this, or what Miko does, due to how little it's elaborated on. I'd say Miko's feat of seemingly absorbing infinite space is the only High 3-A feat left, but it's weird, hardly explained, and when every other High 3-A feat has been heavily disputed, it looks like it could be an outlier.

what is left if there are no high 3-A feats? 2-C?

 

[Mobi2]

Honestly, with all of this in mind, I'm VERY iffy about using size comparisons between the different worlds for any scaling whatsoever. The Netherworld size comparison is from a work full of intentional inaccuracies and itself not stated with confidence, and though Heaven is certainly bigger than the Netherworld, wouldn't it make more sense for Heaven to be compared to Hell as similar in size? Heaven itself is made up of multiple realms too, after all - but it is much more selective than Hell, which is so huge because of the massive quantity of spirits it governs.

In other words I see no reason to assume Heaven is infinite in size, that any specific Hell besides Avici is infinite in size, and that the Netherworld is infinite in size.

What justifications for High 3-A~2-C remain?

With the explanation that the celestials and those in heaven are snobbish to where they don't want anyone else to take up any room there essentially forced the netherworld to be expanded to compensate.

Yukari	……何処にもいない 天界は贅沢に土地を使い過ぎている 天界は飽和状態で成仏は禁止、だなんて大嘘ね ただ単に、狭くなるのが嫌なだけ…… 天人は世俗を捨てた者ってのも大嘘 本当は最もずる賢い人間の巣窟	...Nothing anywhere. The heavens use the lands too luxuriously. They say Heaven is too saturated so attaining nirvana is forbidden... What a farce. They just hate small spaces, that's all... The celestials leaving their worldliness behind is just a lie, too. Heaven is, in fact, the hive for these sly people.

この間、天界を見てきたわ 天界は広くて土地が余ってそうね それなのにさらに地上にも住む処って……

I've seen the heavens during this time. The heavens are spacious with lots of land to spare, and yet you seek places to live on earth....

There is also this statement

人間は死ぬと、中有の道を通り、三途の河を渡り、閻魔様の裁きを受けると罪の重さによって地獄か冥界か天界等に行き先が分かれる。		After death, humans pass through the Road of Liminality, cross over the Sanzu River, and receive the Yama's judgment. Depending on the severity of their crimes, they are sent to Hell, to the Netherworld, to Heaven, etc.

I think it'd be weird if the realms aren't similar in size due to souls/people doing different things in their lifetimes and the severity of their crimes being different from one and another.

 

[Promestein]

Heaven is very large but doesn't have to be as large as Hell for things to work or make sense.

 

[Mobi2]

その内の冥界は、罪の無い死者が成仏するか転生するまでの間を幽霊として過ごす世界である。		Among those, the Netherworld is the world where the guiltless dead spend their time as phantoms, until they achieve nirvana or reincarnate.

There's also the issue of Heaven being locked by the celestials currently so the souls having nowhere to go to besides the netherworld.

 

[RethPo]

what is left if there are no high 3-A feats? 2-C?

Well if high 3-A is rejected.

Theres suikas black hole feat. Utsuhos star level scaling. And doremy and other super high tiers have 4-A feats... although she could still be 3-A considering she can replicated the dreams of anyone... which should include amitabha whos yknow... googols of times universe size on his own.

 

[Mobi2]

Heaven is very large but doesn't have to be as large as Hell for things to work or make sense.

The issue that I have is that when you attain enlightenment you become immortal in a sense and if there isn't enough space for potentially an endless amount of souls everything is going to be overcrowded

 

[Promestein]

The Amitabha feat is so ******* vague and not from anyone who we can 100% trust to be a perfect source.

And yet the Netherworld wasn't properly sized for this either! Not a lot of people reach enlightenment, anyways.

 

[Urshani]

upgrade thread that turned into a downgrade thread

malomtek don't respond to this comment

 

[Mobi2]

The Amitabha feat is so ******* vague and not from anyone who we can 100% trust to be a perfect source.

And yet the Netherworld wasn't properly sized for this either! Not a lot of people reach enlightenment, anyways.

Sure there aren't a lot of people but since there is an eternity to be spent in the afterlives it'd be a disaster for heaven if they get more and more of an influx of souls.

 

[Promestein]

Easy enough to avoid that, given that they can just shut it off and tell everyone they're overcrowded when they're not.

 

[Mobi2]

Easy enough to avoid that, given that they can just shut it off and tell everyone they're overcrowded when they're not.

And that loops back to the Netherworld issue as to where it'd be too crowded because of that.

 

[Promestein]

But they made the Netherworld bigger, so it's not.

 

[Mobi2]

Hell was also going through an expansion point as well

現在、地獄では人口増加に伴う施設拡張を余儀無くされて、財政難に陥っているという。		Since Hell's facilities naturally must be expanded in order to accommodate the increasing population, it's said that Hell is currently experiencing a period of financial difficulty.