Some thoughts on the Harry Potter profiles

[LightMoonWizard]

I agree on the first part, but I disagree that we can scale completely different spells with their own individual effects and purposes to each other. We don't have any evidence or even indication that it is possible to use destructive spells of such a level.

But i also don't see why they shouldn't scale to each others unless the spell has a context saying it's generally harder than the spell we are comparing or the characters themselves having a context of them being able to perform the specific spell in a greater or weaker scale compared to other spells they can perform. And it looks like every element conjuring spells like incendio, aguamenti, nebulus, ventus etc should scale equally to each other unless context like the earlier things exists. I get what you mean by we haven't seen any actual destructive feat that is equal to the lvl we get by calcs. But just because there isn't a direct feat or a quote that hints the destructiveness doesn't mean they never can in my opinion.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

But i also don't see why they shouldn't scale to each others unless the spell has a context saying it's generally harder than the spell we are comparing or the characters themselves having a context of them being able to perform the specific spell in a greater or weaker scale compared to other spells they can perform. And it looks like every element conjuring spells like incendio, aguamenti, nebulus, ventus etc should scale equally to each other unless context like the earlier things exists. I get what you mean by we haven't seen any actual destructive feat that is equal to the lvl we get by calcs. But just because there isn't a direct feat or a quote that hints the destructiveness doesn't mean they never can in my opinion.

I agree that it doesn't make it impossible, but it doesn't imply that this is the case either. I think the lack of evidence means that we can't use this as a justification for bumping Dumbledore and co so many (sub)tiers up.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I agree that it doesn't make it impossible, but it doesn't imply that this is the case either. I think the lack of evidence means that we can't use this as a justification for bumping Dumbledore and co so many (sub)tiers up.

I mean evidence lack really differs for everyone but going by calcs and the point i made early abt how spell potency works and scales to each other. It is definitely possible and imo i think that's enough to call them that lvl in Ap even tho there aren't direct feats and quotes of a destruction on that lvl. I think there should be a anti statement that stand against the scale to stop it from being used.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

I mean evidence lack really differs for everyone but going by calcs and the point i made early abt how spell potency works and scales to each other. It is definitely possible and imo i think that's enough to call them that lvl in Ap even tho there aren't direct feats and quotes of a destruction on that lvl. I think there should be a anti statement that stand against the scale to stop it from being used.

Valid argument, but I think we should agree to disagree until we get an opinion on the matter from more people.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Valid argument, but I think we should agree to disagree until we get an opinion on the matter from more people.

Agreed.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Hi are we still on the subjects in the OP or something else?

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Hi are we still on the subjects in the OP or something else?

Think we are but the ap downgrading is on debate and there are some lightning feats etc to be calced

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Hi are we still on the subjects in the OP or something else?

Yeah, but there have been brought forth some additional feats and, as LightMoonWizard said, the AP-downgrade is under debate. I've also asked if anyone has an opinion on which feats would be most useful to calc.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Also I think we should change the vanishing spell in to Existence Erasure from BFR.

 

[The_Fiend888]

I agree with you about the vanishing spell.

"Where do Vanished objects go?"
"Into non being, which is to say, everything," replied Professor McGonagall.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

For what it's worth, as a semi-book purist I fully agree with separating the book and movie profiles. Don't even mind going as far as to removing using movie details in calculations for events that occurred in books, but I don't mind either way.

I guess I would still argue for the fog calculation as some form of Environmental Destruction irrelevant to combat-related AP.

Going to be quite rusty as I have been extremely inactive in the past year but what are some of the feats perhaps most worth calculating?

Powers and abilities have never been my area of expertise but the changes seem reasonable.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

I guess I would still argue for the fog calculation as some form of Environmental Destruction irrelevant to combat-related AP.

Yeah, I don't think it's combat applicable, and therefore should be removed from the profiles.

Going to be quite rusty as I have been extremely inactive in the past year but what are some of the feats perhaps most worth calculating?

I think these might be the ones most worth looking at, but the whole list (more or less) is on page one:

Lifting strength:
Dumbledore telekinetically moving the house tables

Attack potency:
Death Eaters shaking Hogwarts
Voldemort creating a shockwave
Voldemort blowing a statue into pieces (calced by The_Fiend)
Rowle collapsing a ceiling
Hermione collapsing a floor
Golgomath ripping off another giant's head (calced by The_Fiend)

Durability:
Lynch crashing #1
Lynch crashing #2
A Death Eater getting hit by a brick wall

Speed:
Voldemort flying from Nurmengard to the English Channel #1
Voldemort flying from Nurmengard to the English Channel #2

 

[Arceus0x]

If lightning gets used y'all gotta remember that we have some wacky standards rn and lightning has to be proven to act like legit lightning in many ways to actually be allowed that speed. Otherwise it gets scaled to supersonic or hypersonic which are the speeds of electricity

 

[The_Fiend888]

Golgomath Rips Karkus' Head

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Golgomath Rips Karkus' Head

Great job!

 

[The_Fiend888]

Thank you.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

I think lifting strength would at least scale somewhat to giants in general, though, but I can see that we have little concrete proof for this.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I guess I would still argue for the fog calculation as some form of Environmental Destruction irrelevant to combat-related AP.

The fog feat can be considered as ED but what about dumbledores berlin mirror world creation feat? The feat matches with all the condition that this wiki has to applying creation feats to Ap (creation rules). And since there isn't a mana system in this verse, we should estimate the spells scale with their difficulty in their subjects. Conjuration/Creation is the most hardest part of the art of transfiguration which is arguably the most complicated and high lvl magic in the verse, and dumbledore created a pocket dimension of mirrored berlin merely by sending a waterdroplet through a reflection while being wandlessly. Using a explosive or any othe destructive spells on this scale would be easier than creating a city sized poket dimension.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Also, why don't we add tier2-3 canon characters profiles. Like characters from games(hogwarts mystery, hogwarts legacy, magic awakened). There seems to be quite a lot of characters with new abilities and even one of them having superspeed.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

The fog feat can be considered as ED but what about dumbledores berlin mirror world creation feat? The feat matches with all the condition that this wiki has to applying creation feats to Ap (creation rules). And since there isn't a mana system in this verse, we should estimate the spells scale with their difficulty in their subjects. Conjuration/Creation is the most hardest part of the art of transfiguration which is arguably the most complicated and high lvl magic in the verse, and dumbledore created a pocket dimension of mirrored berlin merely by sending a waterdroplet through a reflection while being wandlessly. Using a explosive or any othe destructive spells on this scale would be easier than creating a city sized poket dimension.

I still don't agree with this.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

I just found this feat of Fred easily reacting to a thrown knife. I don't know if it's worth calcing?

 

[The_Fiend888]

Athletic humans can throw a knife at a speed of at least 11.6 m/s and at most 13.4 m/s. Its result would be much smaller than Dumbledore's feat's result. And they already have Subsonic reaction speed.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Athletic humans can throw a knife at a speed of at least 11.6 m/s and at most 13.4 m/s. Its result would be much smaller than feat of Dumbledore's result. And they already have Subsonic reaction speed.

Yeah, I suspected something like this; I just thought it could be worth mentioning as I think the basis for them being Subsonic is a bit shakey, unless I've missed something.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Professor Flitwick creates the hogwarts protection in deathly hallows all by himself in the novel.

“I can act from here,” said Flitwick, and although he could bare

see out of it, he pointed his wand through the smashed window and

started muttering incantations of great complexity. Harry heard a

weird rushing noise, as though Flitwick had unleashed the power

of the wind into the grounds.



This barrier was calced around multi city block-town so this should upgrade flitwicks ap and similar or higher tiers would also scale or scale above this. And this also back up the top tiers current Ap.

 

[The_Fiend888]

This feat was only in the movie, not the book.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Professor Flitwick creates the hogwarts protection in deathly hallows all by himself in the novel.

“I can act from here,” said Flitwick, and although he could bare

see out of it, he pointed his wand through the smashed window and

started muttering incantations of great complexity. Harry heard a

weird rushing noise, as though Flitwick had unleashed the power

of the wind into the grounds.



This barrier was calced around multi city block-town so this should upgrade flitwicks ap and similar or higher tiers would also scale or scale above this. And this also back up the top tiers current Ap.

While Flitwick likely used protective enchantments in the passage you quoted, there is no mention of a shield like in the movie, and nobody gets disintegrated. Even if there had been such a shield, its durability wouldn't scale to Flitwick's attack potency either way.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Lifting strength:
Dumbledore telekinetically moving the house tables

Attack potency:
Death Eaters shaking Hogwarts
Voldemort creating a shockwave
Voldemort blowing a statue into pieces (calced by The_Fiend)
Rowle collapsing a ceiling
Hermione collapsing a floor
Golgomath ripping off another giant's head (calced by The_Fiend)

Durability:
Lynch crashing #1
Lynch crashing #2
A Death Eater getting hit by a brick wall

Speed:
Voldemort flying from Nurmengard to the English Channel #1
Voldemort flying from Nurmengard to the English Channel #2

If someone could take a shot at some of these, it would be great. Also, what would be needed to actually apply the changes I've proposed? Several people have agreed, but it's a bit disorganised at the moment.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

While Flitwick likely used protective enchantments in the passage you quoted, there is no mention of a shield like in the movie, and nobody gets disintegrated. Even if there had been such a shield, its durability wouldn't scale to Flitwick's attack potency either way.

Hmm, I imagined it would've some kind of invisible barrier that kept the death eaters and dark creatures from entering hogwarts. Cause they said they'll put up every protection they're capable of and flitwicks mutters a long incantation and finishes with protego horribilis which the hp wiki says it's effect as a shield or a barrier(unclear tho since there isn't any info of the spell and it's source).

But wouldn't the protective magical energy itself that surrounds hogwarts be scaled anyway? And i'm pretty sure we don't get any info of how the protection gets nulified by the death eaters as well as voldemorts magic using withe the elderwand that makes him suspect the wand isn't obeying him when he calls snape.

Even if there had been such a shield, its durability wouldn't scale to Flitwick's attack potency either way.

I still believe the scale of spells should connect to each other in equal unless there's extra context about the limit or difficulty the spell or the caster has. And i don't see why defensive spell won't scale to offensive spells.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Hmm, I imagined it would've some kind of invisible barrier that kept the death eaters and dark creatures from entering hogwarts. Cause they said they'll put up every protection they're capable of and flitwicks mutters a long incantation and finishes with protego horribilis which the hp wiki says it's effect as a shield or a barrier(unclear tho since there isn't any info of the spell and it's source).

There is no mention of how the protection spells Flitwick uses work in the books, and they have no durability feats. The effects you mention here come from the movie.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

There is no mention of how the protection spells Flitwick uses work in the books, and they have no durability feats. The effects you mention here come from the movie.

But the invisible shield effect of larger scale than a normal protego is in the books as protego totalum.



That's why i suggested to calc the amount magical energy that would be covering hogwarts since there isn't any dura feat or statement that it's a physical shield. I've seen a calc of the magic that supports hogwarts due to rowling stating hogwarts as well as other wizards houses or structures are not possible to be built by muggles and is supported by magic.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

But the invisible shield effect of larger scale than a normal protego is in the books as protego totalum.

That's why i suggested to calc the amount magical energy that would be covering hogwarts since there isn't any dura feat or statement that it's a physical shield. I've seen a calc of the magic that supports hogwarts due to rowling stating hogwarts as well as other wizards houses or structures are not possible to be built by muggles and is supported by magic.

I don't really understand how this could be calculated, or how it is relevant to offensive combat spells.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I don't really understand how this could be calculated, or how it is relevant to offensive combat spells.

By using castles mass and height and getting the PE ig. Not a expert in calc but that's how the calc was done on the one i found. Like i said, spells should have same scale in effect unless it has unique traits that claims otherwise.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

By using castles mass and height and getting the PE ig. Not a expert in calc but that's how the calc was done on the one i found.

Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to how one would calc the amount of "magical energy" generated by protective enchantments we know very little about.

Like i said, spells should have same scale in effect unless it has unique traits that claims otherwise.

I still don't think that there is anything that implies this sort of scaling to be the case. If anything, it's implied that defensive spells (and in turn, possibly utility spells) are generally superior to offensive ones.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to how one would calc the amount of "magical energy" generated by protective enchantments we know very little about.

By assuming it's range from the bare minimum as the castle itself and up to the barriers size we see in the movies as highend.

I still don't think that there is anything that implies this sort of scaling to be the case. If anything, it's implied that defensive spells (and in turn, possibly utility spells) are generally superior to offensive ones.

I still think this is the default way to scale the spells range of effects. Where is this implied? Cause i've never seen this being a case at all.

 

[The_Fiend888]

It was also said that the potential of a spell varies depending on the desires, emotions, concentration and will of the user. So I think a wizard who is very interested in and enjoys one branch of magic should be better at using that type of magic than someone who is not even slightly interested in that type of magic. It would probably same even if the two were equally skilled.

I also calced the 'Voldemort Blowing A Statue into Pieces' feat.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

By assuming it's range from the bare minimum as the castle itself and up to the barriers size we see in the movies as highend.

Yeah, we can possibly find the range of the spell, but we have no way of knowing how much energy, if any, it generates, as we don't know how it works.

I still think this is the default way to scale the spells range of effects. Where is this implied? Cause i've never seen this being a case at all.

It's implied by the fact that places protected by defensive spells are usually safe from even top-tiers, which means that they are likely unable to brute-force their way in.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

It was also said that the potential of a spell varies depending on the desires, emotions, concentration and will of the user. So I think a wizard who is very interested in and enjoys one branch of magic should be better at using that type of magic than someone who is not even slightly interested in that type of magic. It would probably same even if the two were equally skilled.

I also calced the 'Voldemort Blowing A Statue into Pieces' feat.

Yeah, that's why i said there should be context that points out such things to make the feat more significant than other spells by that wizard. But top tiers were all masters of all branch of spell, charm, curses besides dumbledore not really being in to divinations.
Good job on the calc

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

I also calced the 'Voldemort Blowing A Statue into Pieces' feat.

Yeah, good job!

 

[LightMoonWizard]

It's implied by the fact that places protected by defensive spells are usually safe from even top-tiers, which means that they are likely unable to brute-force their way in.

That was only when the whole order and the ministry would put every defensive spell they are capable of on the burrow. Which will stack it's defense by who knows how much. By this why we should also take in offensive spells usage when the wizards has several buff with other spell or a more powerful version of the spell and by multiple people.

“At the home of one of the Order,” said Snape. “The place,according to the source, has been given every protection that theOrder and Ministry together could provide. I think that there islittle chance of taking him once he is there, my Lord, unless, ofcourse, the Ministry has fallen before next Saturday, which mightgive us the opportunity to discover and undo enough of the enchantments to break through the rest.”

And like above, there is still a chance even with all those tons of protections and with the infomation of the ministry has on the protection, they can undo the enchantments enough to just break through it. So it doesn't even take voldemort himself a top tier to do but the knowledge of which spells that are protecting the place is enough to undo it even for the semi equal wizards(death eaters and ministry, order wizards are in the same league).

We need to put in place every protection of which we arecapable while Potter does what he needs to do.”“You realize, of course, that nothing we do will be able to keepout You-Know-Who indefinitely?” said Professor Sprout.

And even the high tiers like the hogwarts professors know their defensive spells are no match for voldemort as just like dumbledore stated, voldemorts magical knowledge is most likely superior to any alive wizard. Which means he knows all the counter spells to the defensive spells anyone can put up against him. And this was always proved when voldemort would just come in to wizard families home including harrys even tho they had extra protections

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

That was only when the whole order and the ministry would put every defensive spell they are capable of on the burrow. Which will stack it's defense by who knows how much. By this why we should also take in offensive spells usage when the wizards has several buff with other spell or a more powerful version of the spell and by multiple people.

And like above, there is still a chance even with all those tons of protections and with the infomation of the ministry has on the protection, they can undo the enchantments enough to just break through it. So it doesn't even take voldemort himself a top tier to do but the knowledge of which spells that are protecting the place is enough to undo it even for the semi equal wizards(death eaters and ministry, order wizards are in the same league).

And even the high tiers like the hogwarts professors know their defensive spells are no match for voldemort as just like dumbledore stated, voldemorts magical knowledge is most likely superior to any alive wizard. Which means he knows all the counter spells to the defensive spells anyone can put up against him. And this was always proved when voldemort would just come in to wizard families home including harrys even tho they had extra protections

I stand corrected, I see. The only thing I'll argue is that it's implied in your last quote that there were multiple enchantments stacking around Hogwarts too.