Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

[Alonik]

So far no one has debunked my points about even the author not thinking of it in as a fantasy lore thing, even with the interviewer asking about "layers of dream or reality" and him ignoring that and saying it was totally metaphorical.

This is simply people thinking that the player is a character, rather than us, real people. Where is Bill Gates' profile since he created the platform where minecraft game exists?

 

[Leotamer]

And so the two things you listed were one person mentioning the spawn mechanic, and my venting that I didn't think my arguments were taken seriously, followed by actual argumentation which you left out? Neither are fallacies, one is not even an argument and the other is just a weak argument. Which I wanted to say is the fallacy fallacy, but then I googled it before and that isn't what the fallacy fallacy is.

To summarize my argument since it has been disjointed:

The ending monologue is a part of the game, and thus can be analyzed. People argue that we should not take it seriously because it is not literal within the universe, however for it to not literal within the universe, it first must be within the universe. If it is in the universe, that means that the player character is reading the dialogue/monologue. Because the player is reading the dialogue/monologue, that means that what they are saying is at least partially true: the player sees the game as fiction, and thus qualifies for having a higher tier key because he can create and destroy realms (which include separate overworlds, nethers and ends for each) as a whim.

If the player character isn't reading it, then we can consider the game of Minecraft and this story as functional separate, then the End Poem is a metanarrative about Minecraft, and thus contains the narrative of Minecraft within it. If it is separate, there is no reason not to take it as its own piece of fiction and thus power-scale it.

As for why we should disregard the author on this matter, it is because the principle of death of the author. In short, stories are meant to be experienced, not written. And thus each experience taken from a piece of work is equally valid, which includes the author's experience. It is not worthless, it is simply not worth more than what someone else believes. The work is final arbiter on what is true about the work. And the End Poem is a part of the overall work.

As for why we should power-scale it, because I heard that is what we do here. (This is a witticism. I am not very funny.)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your argument makes no sense, though. We're not arguing it isn't literal in-universe, we're arguing it isn't in-universe to begin with, it's just a poem given to you, the player. It's a 4th wall break by the game that doesn't address your "player character" at all. It also equally isn't this metanarrative you're claiming it to be- that argument has no basis.

Death of the author vs Word of god is a common argument so for now I won't bother weighing in on this since it goes both ways and I'm tired of the circular arguments. We use word of god when it doesn't contradict the game, if it isn't outright inconsistent (things like "oh yeah terrarian kills 1-A guys by flexing his pinkie lmao", for example, would be ignored). This debate over whether to consider WoG or not is just getting annoying.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Death of the author can't really he argued here because nothing contradicts the WoG.

It's literally the poem, and the author telling you what the meaning of the poem is or isn't, nothing in game or in any other piece of lore opposes this, much less to an extent where you can actually apply death of the author. If someone writes something, and then says "no, this isn't literal, it's a metaphor" as is the case here, then you can't just go "waaa death of the author, I want it to be literal" without anything backing this interpretation over the author's explict statements

 

[Leotamer]

I've played Minecraft since 2011, lad. I've got no bias against it, unless of course you would call a keen desire to see accurate ratings "bias". The fact of the matter is that the End Poem isn't a literal statement. And before you give me the rant of "OH BUT ITS FICTION NONE OF IT IS LITERAL YOU BUFFOON", that's obviously not the argument. As in, literal in-verse. Even there it is meant purely as a metaphor. I figure this is a simple distinction to make, but perhaps I was wrong.

You can strawman away if you like, I won't tolerate arguments made based on attacking the quality of one's character. Leave that shit in the HST threads.

Your argument makes no sense, though. We're not arguing it isn't literal in-universe, we're arguing it isn't in-universe to begin with, it's just a poem given to you, the player. It's a 4th wall break by the game that doesn't address your "player character" at all. It also equally isn't this metanarrative you're claiming it to be- that argument has no basis.

Death of the author vs Word of god is a common argument so for now I won't bother weighing in on this since it goes both ways and I'm tired of the circular arguments. We use word of god when it doesn't contradict the game, if it isn't outright inconsistent (things like "oh yeah terrarian kills 1-A guys by flexing his pinkie lmao", for example, would be ignored). This debate over whether to consider WoG or not is just getting annoying.

"Even in-verse it is purely a metaphor"
"It isn't in-universe to begin with"

This is how I got the impression that was what being argued, and so I argued it.

As for it not being a metanarrative, is it fictional? I would argue that it is. It is one or more fictional character speaking about something clearly not meant to be non-fiction. Does it experiment with or explore the idea of story-telling? I would again argue yes. It is about how the game you played was just a dream within a dream.

As for Paul_Frank, Death of the Author isn't something made-up for VS battles, it is an actual litery framework. I can apply it how I please. If you don't think it creates a strong argument, I can accept that but that doesn't mean that Death of the Author is invalid somehow.

 

[Moritzva]

... wait, the author literally ******* says it's metaphorical? Someone show me evidence of this, because if that's true this isn't even an argument.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Oh boy, can we downgrade Mario because of Miyamoto's troupe of actors statement? That should be fun.

In all seriousness, though, I agree with Low 1-C player, though I get the feeling that Minecraft is about to get kicked in the nuts. So, oh well.

 

[Alonik]

@Moritzva, here:

TC: ...I think people have given your story the title "wake up", because that line comes at the end, and it feels like it's about different layers of dreams, or realities…

JG: The word "dream" gets used, but it's really a story about the dream of a game, and the dream of life. It's dream as metaphor. I love the strangeness that comes when people get so lost in a game that the game becomes the world. Because you do get lost like that. Especially in something like Minecraft, that's so endless. You're actually startled to come back into your life at the end of it. So I wanted to play with that moment, where you're between two worlds, and for a short little period you're not sure which one is more real

 

[DaReaperMan]

Minecraft is about to get kicked in the nuts. So, oh well.

Minecraft won't even have nuts after this

 

[Leotamer]

Meta-narrative: a narrative account that experiments with or explores the idea of storytelling, often by drawing attention to its own artificiality.

The dream is the metaphor, the story is a story about a metaphorical dream.

 

[Alonik]

Could we put 1-C for Dream? He is a player and youtuber who created at least 107 dreams on his minecraft channel. I think we should have a profile about him as low 1-C!

 

[Livinmeme]

When masada gets downgraded to 1-B persona to 1-C and minecraft to Low 1-C but TF2 hasnt been upgraded back to 9-A
anyway they should be 1-C or Low 1-C

 

[Leotamer]

The reason I am arguing this isn't because I particularly care if we have more god-tiers on the site, and only a bit because I like Minecraft. I just don't like seeing an argument get dog-piled with non-arguments. "You are wrong" is not an argument, no matter how fancy you say it. That and this is my niche interest, and surprisingly you don't get many opportunities to discuss Doylist vs Watsonian explanations. I don't really care to be right and honestly , I want to engage with discussion rather than someone just saying "that is absurd.". We are discussing the rankings of different fictional characters and how that can be used to make judgments about what would happen if they fought to the death. I think some perspective would be a good thing.

 

[DragonLord]

I guess to be fair, something being a metaphor doesn’t always impact canon, I could say Superman is a metaphor for Jewish immigrants moving to America, or the several stories that try to play him up as a Jesus stand in, that doesn’t make every version of Superman canonically Jewish and/or a Version of Jesus in the DC Universe

that’s basically all I can add

 

[Leotamer]

The plain English of the text doesn't support what they were trying to claim it means. They were claiming the story was a metaphor, when the quote says that the dream is the metaphor. Saying that the story is a metaphor because it contains a metaphor is a composition fallacy, an informal fallacy where you presume that something is true of part of something is true of the entirety of it.

As for the dream being a metaphor. Like yeah? As he said, the point is "Which is more real, reality or fiction." and this is a story exploring that. Nobody was claiming that he was literally dreaming everything. That wouldn't be an AP feat. I might be an intelligence feat for keeping all that organized in his head.

And Alinok's possible jokey comment can apply to any game that gets meta with the role of the player.

 

[Alonik]

It's a metaphor because it's just the real world vs fiction and the idea of seeing someone playing a game and immersing themselves in that fictional world through the gameplay. That's literally it, it seems like the people trying to put a sense of tier into this end poem have never played minecraft, because the player is any minecraft player, including me who just finished the game in creative mode to show this:



I want a key in the profile with me being Low 1-C btw, Alonik Low 1-C.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Where is Bill Gates' profile since he created the platform where minecraft game exists?

Unironcally spittin

 

[Leotamer]

The Minecraft Player isn't any Minecraft Player, it is the abstract concept of a person who plays Minecraft who fills a role in a meta-narrative. This same argument applies to Doki Doki Lit Club and Undertale to name the big 2 though obviously they aren't alone.

And you brought up Bill Gates, but we have this annoying dog. The difference is that neither Bill Gates or Notch are apart of the meta-narrative of Minecraft.

You are a real-life person. You exist outside the scope of fictional analysis. If you want a page on this wiki, have someone create a fictionalized version of you, and get it popular enough that someone puts it on the site, next to the fictional counter parts of other real-life people: Abe Lincoln and George Washington

 

[FinePoint]

The Player and The Entities are really vague, and don't represent what a vast majority of people are looking for when they look up Minecraft characters or matches, IMO. I think that they should just be deleted.

I also think a Creative key should be added instead. It never made sense to me that creative is just discounted on this wiki, since it's an equally valid choice for creating a world. (It is not labelled under the "cheat mode" button, but rather is put right alongside survival as a valid gamemode.)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I also think a Creative key should be added instead. It never made sense to me that creative is just discounted on this wiki, since it's an equally valid choice for creating a world. (It is not labelled under the "cheat mode" button, but rather is put right alongside survival as a valid gamemode.)

I honestly can see and understand a creative mode key.

 

[Alonik]

The Minecraft Player isn't any Minecraft Player,

Yeah, you're wrong. I'm the player.

I see the player you mean

Alonik?

Yes. Take care. It has reached a higher level now. It can read our thoughts.

• Alonik is the player
• Aloniks reached a higher level
• Alonik can read their thoughts

Therefore, Low 1-C for me and mind manipulation as well. The wiki has lost its sense of what is indexable and what is not, people using the java commands and the metaphors about gameplay from anyone who finished minecraft for upgrading minecraft to as if it was something in the lore, and not a thank you letter from the game for playing minecraft.

 

[Leotamer]

Your argument now applies to every game where you can name the playable character. Again, the player isn't any given person who plays Minecraft as they exist in the real world, because reality is not affected by fiction. The player is a role within the meta-narrative that is abstract concept of a person who plays Minecraft. You played the role of the The Player, but this is analogous to a person playing a role as a theater actor or movie star, or a children pretending that they are Iron-man.

The story isn't a metaphor. The story is a story, which is allegory about the experience of playing video games. Being an allegory does not negate that it has a narrative, those are separate like Dragonlord elaborated above.

 

[Moritzva]

Your argument now applies to every game where you can name the playable character. Again, the player isn't any given person who plays Minecraft as they exist in the real world, because reality is not affected by fiction. The player is a role within the meta-narrative that is abstract concept of a person who plays Minecraft. You played the role of the The Player, but this is analogous to a person playing a role as a theater actor or movie star, or a children pretending that they are Iron-man.

The story isn't a metaphor. The story is a story, which is allegory about the experience of playing video games. Being an allegory does not negate that it has a narrative, those are separate like Dragonlord elaborated above.

Unless you can provide evidence of credibility to the two narrators in which their words can be taken as both truthful and literal despite the lack of supporting feats, all of your claims made here and previously are nothing more than assumptions.

 

[Alonik]

Your argument now applies to every game where you can name the playable character. Again, the player isn't any given person who plays Minecraft as they exist in the real world, because reality is not affected by fiction. The player is a role within the meta-narrative that is abstract concept of a person who plays Minecraft. You played the role of the The Player, but this is analogous to a person playing a role as a theater actor or movie star, or a children pretending that they are Iron-man.

The story isn't a metaphor. The story is a story, which is allegory about the experience of playing video games. Being an allegory does not negate that it has a narrative, those are separate like Dragonlord elaborated above.

Very interesting mental gymnastics to say that there is a being called "the player" within the lore of minecraft, when "the player" in the end poem is actually just an java script.

We can create a verse page with vsbattles members while playing minecraft in bukkit or paper via their java scripts by the way, everyone is low 1-C.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your argument now applies to every game where you can name the playable character. Again, the player isn't any given person who plays Minecraft as they exist in the real world, because reality is not affected by fiction. The player is a role within the meta-narrative that is abstract concept of a person who plays Minecraft. You played the role of the The Player, but this is analogous to a person playing a role as a theater actor or movie star, or a children pretending that they are Iron-man.

The story isn't a metaphor. The story is a story, which is allegory about the experience of playing video games. Being an allegory does not negate that it has a narrative, those are separate like Dragonlord elaborated above.

I mean. This isn't the case, though. You yourself mention Doki Doki Literature Club, which is a metanarrative, and it names you, the person (or, at least as well as it can via perusing computer files). Not a big point, I know, but still, let's not pretend you're not contradicting yourself, here.

 

[Leotamer]

Unless you can provide evidence of credibility to the two narrators in which their words can be taken as both truthful and literal despite the lack of supporting feats, all of your claims made here and previously are nothing more than assumptions.

Because within the meta-narrative, there conversation is appearing as text, confirming that what they say about us perceiving there conversation as text in a video game to be true and literal. Because of this, there is no reason to doubt there claim that they perceive Minecraft as a game, which is where they get their AP from for being able to create and destroy worlds.

As for Alonik and Mr Bambu, I don't know what to say at this point. The fact that real people aren't affected by fiction, but real people, even in the abstract, can represented within fiction is trivially true. I don't know how I can further defend this position.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah nah. Add me in to the deleting pages side please.

 

[Leotamer]

I mean. This isn't the case, though. You yourself mention Doki Doki Literature Club, which is a metanarrative, and it names you, the person (or, at least as well as it can via perusing computer files). Not a big point, I know, but still, let's not pretend you're not contradicting yourself, here.

Could you explain which of my statements makes a previous statement I said false?

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Something about it being a game mechanic

that goes for just about everything in minecraft lol

 

[BigSmoke4269]

anyways i never thought 8-D minecraft with 7-D steve would be a thing but here we are

 

[Leotamer]

And while we have mostly been talking that if we should treat a part of the game as part of the game, I actually think that the actual conclusion of the original post is incorrect. The End Poem equates the short and long dream, rather putting the long dream on a higher level than the short one. It kind of the whole purpose of the narrative, which is one more real. Meaning that they are both just 4d space-time structures and the player would be above as a 5d entity.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why should we use 5-D for Low 1-C, 8-D for 1-C, and so on for Minecraft? I thought you needed to effect things at that range/damage being at that range to count

This needs to be answered before ANY upgrades happen.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean going by staff votes atm we're closer to downgrades happening, thank ****

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean going by staff votes atm we're closer to downgrades happening, thank ****

Well yeah, but if by some miracle the downgrades are denied that apsolutely needs to be answered.

Also how do we know each minecraft world has its own space-time? If we do keep the entities and true form player key they would only be quite far into High 3-A

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I mean going by staff votes atm we're closer to downgrades happening, thank ****

Thank christ that one user posted the interview to say otherwise.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If it sounds like i am just now putting real thought into this, its because I have nothing else on my mind right now, the two below apsolutely must be answered satisfactory or we have full rights to just bump it down to High 3-A and call it a day.

Also how do we know each minecraft world has its own space-time? If we do keep the entities and true form player key they would only be quite far into High 3-A

Why should we use 5-D for Low 1-C, 8-D for 1-C, and so on for Minecraft? I thought you needed to effect things at that range/damage being at that range to count

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The Lorax is an animation of which the purpose is to be a metaphor for how capitalism and industrialism destroys the environment. It is still a fictional story in which an orange, furry creature exists.

Being a metaphor means nothing against something getting a story. Worse is, what Bambu is claiming is just not true. The poem is not claiming "this is a game you are playing", nor is that the purpose of the metaphor.

The poem claims that being a human, being a game character, reading stories or folklore are all just dreaming. This isn't extrapolation. The last bit of the poem outright states that you are the universe that is observing itself, and in no uncertain terms claims that being a human on a globe spinning around a star is also a dream.

Having a metaphorical meaning is unimportant, for the same reason I can name a Xianxia story where the characters are metaphors for capitalism and communism, and yet are still indexable characters.


This isn't even interpretation.

and the universe said you are not separate from every other thing

and the universe said you are the universe tasting itself, talking to itself, reading its own code

and the universe said I love you because you are love.

And the game was over and the player woke up from the dream. And the player began a new dream. And the player dreamed again, dreamed better. And the player was the universe. And the player was love.

You are the player.

Wake up.

Let's be honest here, the push back here began with an argument out of disbelief, and is supported by that.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I fully agree. I fail to understand to understand how it being a metaphor discredits what is being displayed, a clear hierarchy in ontological beings.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also how do we know each minecraft world has its own space-time? If we do keep the entities and true form player key they would only be quite far into High 3-A

Why should we use 5-D for Low 1-C, 8-D for 1-C, and so on for Minecraft? I thought you needed to effect things at that range/damage being at that range to count

Answer these if you want an upgrade.

 

[manu_zarri]

Idk why people thinks "being a metaphor dosen't affect the scaing", but either way there are some clearly part wich aren't vague and which aren't metaphor, such the Low 1-C one of the real world.