Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

[Mr. Bambu]

"It isn't an argument that it isn't true. Yes, it isn't true."

Cool. Pointing to an entirely different work of fiction is the most bizarre argument, particularly for the case of Minecraft where there isn't really a great narrative to the game. There is a poem at the end. The narrative otherwise is what you make of it.

Everyone here is aware of how fiction works even without your condescending lecturing on the matter. That's not the argument.

 

[Leotamer]

"It isn't an argument that it isn't true. Yes, it isn't true."

Cool. Pointing to an entirely different work of fiction is the most bizarre argument, particularly for the case of Minecraft where there isn't really a great narrative to the game. There is a poem at the end. The narrative otherwise is what you make of it.

By this type of argumentation, you could delete the entire wiki. Because I am sure if you notice, but nothing on this wiki is true.

And shouldn't having little exposition mean that the little we get should be more important not less? Especially when it occurs at an important part of the narrative, namely the End.

 

[sanicspood]

but nothing on this wiki is true.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

but nothing on this wiki is true.

 

[GyroNutz]

With the poem, then the game interface would reasonable be canon. The player views Minecraft as a game, and would thus reasonably also would have a UI. So there is no reason to think that the menus are non-diagletic to the dreaming player, and so the dreaming player would have access to cheats.

That's reasonable to you? The player can "pause" and "delete" worlds, sure, if the end poem is taken overly literally, but it doesn't then follow that the player can access cheats that aren't accessible through in-game menus. Would you think that debug menus are canon as well?

 

[InfiniteDay]

Low 1-C Steve and Entities is fine.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Question: why should dimensional tiering be at place here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

By this type of argumentation, you could delete the entire wiki. Because I am sure if you notice, but nothing on this wiki is true.

And shouldn't having little exposition mean that the little we get should be more important not less? Especially when it occurs at an important part of the narrative, namely the End.

I agree, let's do it. Let's delete the wiki guys, it's gone on for far too long.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Agree with upgrade (18): Maverick Zero X, MrKerf, Planck69, The Wright Way, Saikou The Lewd King, AkumaNoHissatsu, Emirp Sumitpo, Zencha9, ShakeResounding, Rabbit2002, Milly Rocking Bandit, Rtxthegamer, Akuto123 (Low 1-C), AkumaNoHissatsu (Low 1-C), Ricsi-viragosi (Low 1-C or tier 2), Fastestthingalive50, Infiniteday (Low 1-C), Leotamer

Delete the pages (13): Moritzva, Mr. Bambu, DatOneWeeb, Rikimarox2, Ottavio Merluzzo, StrymULTRA, Delta333, manu zarri, Bobsican, Alonik, Gyronutz, Paul_Frank, DaReaperMan

Ty planck ;p

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ricsi is retired staff, but otherwise, thank you.

EDIT: Everything12 also mentioned that if there were no other Tier 2 feats (there are not) then they were against the poem being taken as literal. So accounting for Ricsi's retirement, 14 for deletion, 18 for upgrade, 4 staff on the former, 3 on the latter. I suppose I could contact other staff members, Starter brought up being willing to look and Zark implied disdain for the upgrade.

 

[Leotamer]

That's reasonable to you? The player can "pause" and "delete" worlds, sure, if the end poem is taken overly literally, but it doesn't then follow that the player can access cheats that aren't accessible through in-game menus. Would you think that debug menus are canon as well?

They are enabled on the 'more world options' page, where you change your terrain type, enter a seed, or toggle structures or a bonus chest. And you use cheats by typing them in chat. I don't see how they fall outside of the scope of playing the game normally?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Question: why should dimensional tiering be at place here?

 

[The_Impress]

I agree, let's do it. Let's delete the wiki guys, it's gone on for far too long.

Unfathomably based.

I agree with deletion btw

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Question: why should dimensional tiering be at place here?

can you open a little more I did not fully understand

 

[DaReaperMan]

can you open a little more I did not fully understand

Why should we use 5-D for Low 1-C, 8-D for 1-C, and so on for Minecraft? I thought you needed to effect things at that range/damage being at that range to count

 

[TheGatememer]

tfw an upgrade thread turns into a deletion thread

 

[Mr. Bambu]

tfw an upgrade thread turns into a deletion thread

This makes me smile.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Reminds me of another thread, actually.

There was a thread to upgrade a character to Low 1-A to 1-A and it ended up downgrading them to Low 1-C in the same thread. Was quite funny, tbh.

 

[DaReaperMan]

CRTs tend to bring out the weak points in tiering/abilities in characters

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Neutral on this one

 

[Leotamer]

I am sorry if based on what is happening in this character, the desire to nuke Minecraft's higher tiers isn't based on argumentation or reason but personal bias against the game. I don't think that any other fictional franchise would put this much scrutiny on the mere concept that god-like beings exist and created stuff.

Bambu made the statement that the only narrative to Minecraft is what you make of it, but the game has an ending. You can continue playing after the ending, but having a post-game doesn't negate the "main story". The "main story" of Minecraft is that you are a miner who arrived in the world, mined in the overworld, created a portal to the nether and explored until they found a nether fortress (or traded with the local pig creatures) to obtain eyes of ender which lead them to a portal to the End where they killed a dragon and scene. The only difference between this story and a traditional video game story is that Minecraft doesn't tell you that is the main quest and just lets explore its world until you stumble upon it (or know about it from prior knowledge) In fact, its story structure is very similiar to Terraria, Terraria just has more steps than (mining -> nether portal -> end portal -> kill dragon)

This also feels very inconsistent. This wiki accepts the existence of toon force and broadway force, but we have to treat the ending narration of a game as non-literal because the author of it explained that it was an allegory? And that authorial intent and power-scaling don't always get along, like with notable case of the Stan Lee quote.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

personal bias against the game

I've played Minecraft since 2011, lad. I've got no bias against it, unless of course you would call a keen desire to see accurate ratings "bias". The fact of the matter is that the End Poem isn't a literal statement. And before you give me the rant of "OH BUT ITS FICTION NONE OF IT IS LITERAL YOU BUFFOON", that's obviously not the argument. As in, literal in-verse. Even there it is meant purely as a metaphor. I figure this is a simple distinction to make, but perhaps I was wrong.

You can strawman away if you like, I won't tolerate arguments made based on attacking the quality of one's character. Leave that shit in the HST threads.

 

[Leotamer]

I've played Minecraft since 2011, lad. I've got no bias against it, unless of course you would call a keen desire to see accurate ratings "bias". The fact of the matter is that the End Poem isn't a literal statement. And before you give me the rant of "OH BUT ITS FICTION NONE OF IT IS LITERAL YOU BUFFOON", that's obviously not the argument. As in, literal in-verse. Even there it is meant purely as a metaphor. I figure this is a simple distinction to make, but perhaps I was wrong.

You can strawman away if you like, I won't tolerate arguments made based on attacking the quality of one's character. Leave that shit in the HST threads.

Why is there any reason to presume that it isn't literal in-verse? It seems like the argument stops and ends at "Don't take it literally". It is a part of the game, and is not contradicted by any other facts of the game.

And if you took it me implying people acting based on personal bias as an insult, I apologize. I do not consider it an insult because I believe that everyone has personal biases, and it takes active effort not to act on them, but there was probably a more diplomatic way of saying that.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Why is there any reason to presume that it isn't literal in-verse? It seems like the argument stops and ends at "Don't take it literally". It is a part of the game, and is not contradicted by any other facts of the game.

And if you took it me implying people acting based on personal bias as an insult, I apologize. I do not consider it an insult because I believe that everyone has personal biases, and it takes active effort not to act on them, but there was probably a more diplomatic way of saying that.

Tbh I couldn't understand shit on what's going here what are the actual arguments for the downgrade exactly? Because all I saw is arguments like "we aren't going to accept this poem so let's downgrade them" but I still can't find any actual reasons for it here

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The argument stops at "It refers to the game as a game, because it is a fourth wall break, in a game with no actual lore barring this poem that people are using to argue Tier 1". If you haven't read the arguments, do so before posting.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I agree with the deletion, I think that create a key based just in a little detail made by the creators to make us feel good for playing is to weak of a argument to justify let alone a key but a tier 1, it's the only thing to justify it and to something as big as tier 1 there should be extrict requisites with various reasons to justify it, I haven't see other thread for tier 1 be accepted just for one meta thing, based on that any character that break the fourth wall would be tier 1.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

The argument stops at "It refers to the game as a game, because it is a fourth wall break, in a game with no actual lore barring this poem that people are using to argue Tier 1". If you haven't read the arguments, do so before posting.

You are acting and it's like it's some kind of game mechanics or anything why do we assume that it isn't literal in-verse? There is literally no reason to assume so, the poem made pretty clear that Minecraft deal with transfinites

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You are acting and it's like it's some kind of game mechanics or anything why do we assume that it isn't literal in-verse? There is literally no reason to assume so

It isn't a game mechanics argument, given this isn't a mechanic, but you're close to the mark.

Because flowery language and lack of concrete statements are often grounds to ignore such things. Minecraft has skated by blissfully unaware of this fact for years, since Azzy left and the ratings were brought back.

 

[Leotamer]

"Breaking the fourth wall" just refers to a character interacting or acknowledging the audience or medium of a work. Just winking at the camera would be a 4th wall break, and wouldn't justify 1-A.

Also, I am not sure why it is called a poem? I don't believe it has a rhyme structure at all. It just dialogue between two characters, or potentially a single character monologuing.

Taken by itself, the End Poem is a metanarrative. It is a story about story-telling. We can either presume it is a diegetic or not, if it is, then that means that there is one or two characters making these statements in lore, I guess they could be lying but I don't see why would presume that. If it is not, then that means that it is effectively two separate pieces of work presented to the player consecutively, one about the other. And that point, I don't see how it would not be fair game to power-scale. And in case you are wondering, I am using words like metanarrative or diegetic because I am a nerd and this type of narrative structure stuff interests me.

In order to take it non-literally in-verse, the poem would need to exist within the verse and be fictional to it. Whereas the more obvious connection is that the game verse exists as fiction within the poem verse.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

It feels like our most contentious discussions are based on whether or not something can be defined as flowery language.

That said, keep this civil guys. We don't need bias accusations.

 

[DaReaperMan]

What did i go off for 50 minutes and come back to? Accusations of bias? Seemingly circular arguments? Calm down, keep it civil, and watch some Bob Ross people!

 

[AkumaNoHissatsu]

bruh, the spawn system in minecraft already supports the existence of End Poem

 

[DragonLord]

I’d say I’m neutral on upgrading Steve’s Player Key, but I feel like the entities, canon or non-canon, don’t have enough to really warrant a profile nor do they explain the scaling or powers of the verse any better then just a simple blurb can (for example something like the Truth of the Universe in Mother has a little more in-depth stuff to warrant a profile and to explain the scaling and Abilties)

 

[Gohanblanco217]

It isn't a game mechanics argument, given this isn't a mechanic, but you're close to the mark.

Because flowery language and lack of concrete statements are often grounds to ignore such things. Minecraft has skated by blissfully unaware of this fact for years, since Azzy left and the ratings were brought back.

So it's more about the Poem containing flowery language? Idk the statements seems pretty clear as a day to me tbh especially due to the clear cut evidence that was presented in OP and by other people in this thread

 

[Mr. Bambu]

bruh, the spawn system in minecraft already supports the existence of End Poem

See, this, this is a game mechanics argument, it holds no ground to me.

Regarding Gohan's post: flowery language/metaphor is a large part of it, yes. I realize you feel that way. I feel extremely differently. In the case where such things are not 100% concrete, I err on the side of caution and am against using them. This is far from 100% concrete.

 

[Moritzva]

A lot of the arguments against deletion being thrown around right now are rather absurd and filled to the brim with fallacies. I’m really doubtful that we can apply these upgrades if half the people voting “yes” clearly don’t have good reasons for it.

 

[Leotamer]

A lot of the arguments against deletion being thrown around right now are rather absurd and filled to the brim with fallacies. I’m really doubtful that we can apply these upgrades if half the people voting “yes” clearly don’t have good reasons for it.

If you could give examples of fallacies being used, then we can discuss that. But just saying "your argument are absurd and filled to the brim with fallacies" means nothing.

 

[Moritzva]

If you could give examples of fallacies being used, then we can discuss that. But just saying "your argument are absurd and filled to the brim with fallacies" means nothing.

I am sorry if based on what is happening in this character, the desire to nuke Minecraft's higher tiers isn't based on argumentation or reason but personal bias against the game. I don't think that any other fictional franchise would put this much scrutiny on the mere concept that god-like beings exist and created stuff.

bruh, the spawn system in minecraft already supports the existence of End Poem

: - /

 

[GrathOfLux]

I’m trying to give an opinion here, but I unironically can’t tell who is arguing for what.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I’m trying to give an opinion here, but I unironically can’t tell who is arguing for what.

At this point i can relate

I think Bambu is in favour of Deletion and Leotamer in favour of an upgrade