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Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

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Alonik said:
I think there are things that can be used from the poem, for example the world being said to be infinite, but the whole Player relationship is simply us--the beings in the other side of the screen, the player is even referenced with the Nick you choose as well. If your nick is "[email protected]" then this is exactly who the player is, the whole dream of the player thing is just poetry at the end credits talking about the journey you as a player of minecraft had through playing the game.

This is just the credits enjoying our gameplay with a letter for us breaking the fourth wall.
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yeah ı agree with this
 
I guess I see both sides, but death of the author certainly doesn't apply here.

The only way I can see this being taken at face value would be to assume the WoG means that the claims of the real world being mere dreams as much as the game is are metaphorical, but that "in-verse" they are meant literally.

However, for something this meta, I would personally side with the "it's a metaphor" side of things.
 
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Mr._Bambu said:
As said above. I'm for nuking Entities, removing "player" key from Steve.
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I agree with this take, there's really no actual feats of it and the entire key is purely based off a single sprawl of pure dialogue - not actually recorded fact, but dialogue.

Didn't know we'd create entire tier 2+ profiles just based on two dudes vaguely claiming so with what is likely metaphors.
 
Alonik said:
I think there are things that can be used from the poem, for example the world being said to be infinite, but the whole Player relationship is simply us--the beings in the other side of the screen, the player is even referenced with the Nick you choose as well. If your nick is "[email protected]" then this is exactly who the player is, the whole dream of the player thing is just poetry at the end credits talking about the journey you as a player of minecraft had through playing the game.

This is just the credits enjoying our gameplay with a letter for us breaking the fourth wall.
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Anyways as I said I read this comment. Tbh this doesn't seem very literal, and I agree it's more 4th wall breaking.

Before saying anything guys, remember that I'm 100% against using poetic language as a debunk as I said here. But it seems to be the case here, so I unfortunately have to agree with deleting the profiles
 
Alonik said:
I think there are things that can be used from the poem, for example the world being said to be infinite, but the whole Player relationship is simply us--the beings in the other side of the screen, the player is even referenced with the Nick you choose as well. If your nick is "[email protected]" then this is exactly who the player is, the whole dream of the player thing is just poetry at the end credits talking about the journey you as a player of minecraft had through playing the game.

This is just the credits enjoying our gameplay with a letter for us breaking the fourth wall.
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I don't really see how it being a Fourth Wall Breaking moment necessarily means it can no longer be considered valid within the context of the setting, though. I understand arguing that the text itself is purely metaphorical (Which seems to be the leading argument for the opposing side), but there are likewise plenty of verses where 4th Wall Breaking elements are displayed as actual mechanics, and thus indexed as such, and I don't think this would be much different.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Everything is Tier 1.

The Thing
Alright, so, yesterday, I and a few other people noticed an issue with a few of the Minecraft profiles. Namely The Player and The Entities; to quote the latter's AP justification:



To summarize it: We treat The Player as transcending the entire world of Minecraft, given that they created its entirety as a dream (Or a "small, private world") of theirs, alongside several different worlds of a similar nature, some of which are part of a nested structure of dreams within dreams, where The Player awakes from one dream and into another, only to wake up one more time, into a third dream.

The End Poem entities, meanwhile, are described as existing on a higher level of existence than The Player, and perceive even the Real World in which the latter lives as being itself another dream, although a long one, different in nature from the short, ephemeral dreams represented by the different worlds and stories which humans experience in their lifetimes.

Needless to say, this isn't 2-B. It's 1-C, given that the exact scale would then be more or less like this:

  • Minecraft World/Private Worlds in general = Low 2-C to 2-C (4-D)
  • Further Dreams = Low 1-C (Second dream being 5-D, and the third dream 6-D)
  • Real World = 1-C (7-D)
  • Entities = 1-C (8-D)

And this, for the matter, is very clearly supposed to be an hierarchy of levels of existence, given that the entities of the End Poem very explicitly state that, by dreaming up a story, The Player is creating entirely real worlds within their own thoughts:

minecraft.fandom.com

Credit Sequence

The Credit sequence is the lines of text and music that play when the player uses the Exit portal. This includes the End Poem, a freehand poem written by musician Julian Gough and the Credits, which serve to recognize those that have contributed to the game. After entering the End dimension and...
minecraft.fandom.com minecraft.fandom.com



Furthermore, the entities themselves repeatedly discuss ideas and concepts which are beyond the comprehension of The Player by virtue of originating from what is explicitly "the highest level" beyond "the long dream of life," and they even refer to these truths as being too strong for lower realities to bear at one point:





For reference, here are more instances where they refer to the real world as being just another dream:





And the paragraph where they describe The Player's nested dreams. In this case, we'd take the baseline to be a structure similar to that of the Minecraft World, at least, since the text doesn't seem to indicate they are delving deeper into dreams, but rather just creating worlds much like the others, only to wake up into higher worlds at random:



If it wasn't clear by now, the "long dream of life" is nothing more than the dream of the universe itself, which exists as a monad beyond any separation, and utilizes beings such as The Player as assets so that it may experience itself, and the poem even compares it to the act of something "reading its own code."



This for the matter, would also grant Transduality to the entities, since "they" aren't really the universe as a literal, sentient organism and moreso a level where any distinction between any given thing disappears, and everything turns out to be a single force, with any separations being illusory and blah blah blah. Given the details above, their Intelligence should also be changed to Omniscient, for obvious reasons.

And, speaking of which: The profile itself should have its name changed, because the beings from the End Poem are never identified as "The Entities" at any point. In fact, the closest thing they have to a canon name is "The Universe," since the entire point of the poem is that they are not really two separate beings, but a single thing, expressing itself in different ways. So, the new name will be just that.

TL;DR The Player and The Entities should be 1-C, not 2-B.

Oh, yeah, and The Player's Real World key should lose Resurrection, too, since death being a temporary inconvenience to them pretty clearly refers to the fact that their incarnation within the game world can respawn after being killed.
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What a based thread

Agree

I mean, the player is literally sees Minecraft world as Dream, like Reality and fiction
 
Alonik said:
I think there are things that can be used from the poem, for example the world being said to be infinite, but the whole Player relationship is simply us--the beings in the other side of the screen, the player is even referenced with the Nick you choose as well. If your nick is "[email protected]" then this is exactly who the player is, the whole dream of the player thing is just poetry at the end credits talking about the journey you as a player of minecraft had through playing the game.

This is just the credits enjoying our gameplay with a letter for us breaking the fourth wall.
Click to expand...
Nah

Endpoem is Minecraft Lore
I mean
end poem is still included as minecraft lore

the entities tell the truth, but as they say, not the Naked truth
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't really see how it being a Fourth Wall Breaking moment necessarily means it can no longer be considered valid within the context of the setting, though. I understand arguing that the text itself is purely metaphorical (Which seems to be the leading argument for the opposing side), but there are likewise plenty of verses where 4th Wall Breaking elements are displayed as actual mechanics, and thus indexed as such, and I don't think this would be much different.
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I mean in the sense of what the dreams portrait puts it, because it's a 4th wall breaking with us players, so it would practically be considering our world to be 7D, when it's just a meta-fictional interaction.

There are works that may use meta-fiction, and other communication elements to build their tiers, but it is not as if the player here is a layer within the lore above the world and see it as akin to fiction, hence a real world as a layer inside the lore, but rather a relationship between the world created in the game interface, which is our dream within the screen.

It would be like assigning tiers to a given being who is the writer of a novel about a particular character, just because he wrote that novel and it is his dream, while in the real world he is just an ordinary human controlling a certain kind of interface, that allows him to create things unimaginable through such idealistic world.
 
AkumaNoHissatsu said:
Nah

Endpoem is Minecraft Lore
I mean
end poem is still included as minecraft lore

the entities tell the truth, but as they say, not the Naked truth
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I never said it wasn't lore, I said the "[Player Name]?" part is something that is not literal for tiering, since it is an interaction with our real world, and not a fictional real world within the lore, but just a letter from the game mechanics to us real people from the real, who choose the player name in the game launcher.

Other things that refer to the lore of the world itself, for example the adventures that can be done, the size of the world and etc... are things that should be indexed, but the case of interaction with the player i.e. us, should be dropped.
 
AkumaNoHissatsu said:
The spawn system in minecraft is also one of the strongest proofs of existence in a higher dimension for the player
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Elaborate.

And can someone start counting? As said, I’m on Team Delete, as well as Bambu.
 
Agree with upgrade (11): Maverick Zero X, MrKerf, Planck69, The Wright Way, Saikou The Lewd King, AkumaNoHissatsu, Emirp Sumitpo, Zencha9, ShakeResounding, Rabbit2002, Milly Rocking Bandit

Delete the pages (9): Moritzva, Mr. Bambu, DatOneWeeb, Rikimarox2, Ottavio Merluzzo, StrymULTRA, Delta333, manu zarri, Bobsican

Those not included on the list are those whose stances I'm unsure of. Feel free to tell me where you're to be placed.
 
AKUTO123 said:
It is wrong for me to give a tier from poetry. I see dreams being defined intertwined, but I personally cannot see what indicates that dreams are higher dimensional than each other.
Click to expand...
You can't really disagree with tiering from poetry then agree with Low 1-C. At this point, either 2-B goes or 1-C stays.
 
Sometimes the player dreamed it was a miner, on the surface of a world that was flat, and infinite. The sun was a square of white. The days were short; there was much to do; and death was a temporary inconvenience.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was lost in a story.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was other things, in other places. Sometimes these dreams were disturbing. Sometimes very beautiful indeed. Sometimes the player woke from one dream into another, then woke from that into a third.
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I wonder how this proves higher worlds? Here it only talks about the activities/adventures that the player does in the new seeds opened in Minecraft or it just refers to the fact that he will do different activities/adventures after he dies and reborn
Take a breath, now. Take another. Feel air in your lungs. Let your limbs return. Yes, move your fingers. Have a body again, under gravity, in air. Respawn in the long dream. There you are. Your body touching the universe again at every point, as though you were separate things. As though we were separate things.
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The sentence at the beginning of this poem and the dream that he talks about here means being reborn only when you die in the game. the player does not jump to new higher worlds or something, he just think of something different again and if i have to give an example it is like dreaming of being a lumberjack after death when i used to be a miner. Also this above proves what i said.
And the game was over and the player woke up from the dream. And the player began a new dream. And the player dreamed again, dreamed better. And the player was the universe. And the player was love.
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Here it is talking about the player just finishing the game (in short, completing the last mission in the game) and installing a new seed (this time it's not about dying because it ends the game) and it is mentioned that he will embark on new better activities/adventures.

I just don't understand how it means higher dreams
 
Yar_R_agi_7k said:
I wonder how this proves higher worlds? Here it only talks about the activities/adventures that the player does in the new seeds opened in Minecraft or it just refers to the fact that he will do different activities/adventures after he dies and reborn
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The evidence is mainly in the part mentioning the Player awakening through several dreams, without actually awakening into the real world. Them experiencing other stories and adventures in different worlds is marked by them awakening and then "dreaming" once again, which is visibly different from what's occuring here, and isn't what's being used as evidence for any hierarchy in the OP.

Yar_R_agi_7k said:
The sentence at the beginning of this poem and the dream that he talks about here means being reborn only when you die in the game. the player does not jump to new higher worlds or something, he just think of something different again and if i have to give an example it is like dreaming of being a lumberjack after death when i used to be a miner. Also this above proves what i said.
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"The long dream" here explicitly refers to The Player's real world, actually. Hence why the entities explicitly distinguish it from "the short dream of the game" earlier into the Poem. The Player is "respawning" into the long dream to indicate a shift in perspective from the game world to the real world.

It worked, with a million others, to sculpt a true world in a fold of the [scrambled], and created a [scrambled] for [scrambled], in the [scrambled].

It cannot read that thought.

No. It has not yet achieved the highest level. That, it must achieve in the long dream of life, not the short dream of a game.
Click to expand...

Moritzva said:
I agree with this take, there's really no actual feats of it and the entire key is purely based off a single sprawl of pure dialogue - not actually recorded fact, but dialogue.

Didn't know we'd create entire tier 2+ profiles just based on two dudes vaguely claiming so with what is likely metaphors.
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By the way, as a sort of extension to the mini-argument we've had about this elsewhere, I'd also point to another stretch of the interview with the writer of the End Poem, which could contextualize the events themselves into the setting of the verse. Namely with how he states that the credits themselves are supposed to be The Player attaining a state of enlightenment and acquiring some form of wisdom by breaking into another level.

TC: So the format you went for in the story was an overheard dialogue: the player is effectively listening in on two alien intelligences talking about them. Where did that come from?

JG: I wanted a dreamy kind of feeling, like you'd broken through something. When you're playing Minecraft in Survival mode, you're performing a quest that is difficult and takes a long time. I felt that at the end of the quest there should be some moment of enlightenment, some ambiguous wisdom. That you should have something to bring back – and you should feel you've broken through into some other level. That is the feeling I wanted, and I liked the idea of an overheard dialogue to create it.
Click to expand...

And this is not just author intent, from the looks of it. It's echoed in the End Poem itself, too, seeing as the very first bits of dialogue we get from the entities consist of them pointing out that The Player attained a higher level from which it could read their thoughts as words on a screen:

I see the player you mean.

PLAYERNAME?

Yes. Take care. It has reached a higher level now. It can read our thoughts.
Click to expand...

Admitedly not too sure on whether this necessarily solves the issue of whether to take the Poem as metaphorical or not, but it does grant some substance to it, at least.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
"The long dream" here explicitly refers to The Player's real world, actually. Hence why the entities explicitly distinguish it from "the short dream of the game" earlier into the Poem. The Player is "respawning" into the long dream to indicate a shift in perspective from the game world to the real world.
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The article you sent is much further back in the text than the one I sent, but this was just starting to describe the beginning of the player in the text I threw, and when you die in Minecraft, a button called "Respawn" comes out, we can see from this sentence that it refers to it, "Let your limbs return. Yes, move your fingers. Have a body again, under gravity, in air'' The reason it says words ''again'' here is because you're already respawn in the game again.
 
Looking at the interview we have the following:
JG: ...I didn't want to get inside the game and feel I had to explain everything that happened in it at the end, because people had had their own stories in their own minds. I wanted to do an ending that was outside of the game.
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Well, this here gets very much into the issue I argued earlier, where the final part is about the idealistic world in the head of every MC player, and it's not something that is for lore per se, but something that goes on in the head of every one of us, for example ideas of buildings with inconceivable redstone systems that we like and see on youtube.

It gets interesting also in another question
TC: ...I think people have given your story the title "wake up", because that line comes at the end, and it feels like it's about different layers of dreams, or realities…

JG: The word "dream" gets used, but it's really a story about the dream of a game, and the dream of life. It's dream as metaphor. I love the strangeness that comes when people get so lost in a game that the game becomes the world. Because you do get lost like that. Especially in something like Minecraft, that's so endless. You're actually startled to come back into your life at the end of it. So I wanted to play with that moment, where you're between two worlds, and for a short little period you're not sure which one is more real
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Well, I don't think need to argue much, since he describes in every word that the dream philophy is just a metaphor for our immersion in the world of minecraft, even with the interviewer asking whether it was layers of dreams or realities.

And here I even begin to doubt the size of the world is even 3-A, because it seems that he is just saying about the infinite size of the world being about something that can be played tirelessly/endlessly, and not a 2^aleph-0 of blocks.

Ultima_Reality said:
By the way, as a sort of extension to the mini-argument we've had about this elsewhere, I'd also point to another stretch of the interview with the writer of the End Poem, which could contextualize the events themselves into the setting of the verse. Namely with how he states that the credits themselves are supposed to be The Player attaining some state of enlightenment and acquiring some form of wisdom by breaking into another level.
Click to expand...
The enlightenment here refers to the context that i brought above, it is about the player getting out of the dream/game he created, and so at the end there is a "wake up".

The Player is not something that exists within the lore, the Player is us Minecraft players, who often get too deep into the dream/game and forget about the real world. In addition to these other point that i brought up there, there is:

TC: I think this is another reason why I'm so interested in the film Inception, to go back to that, because part of its message is that if you go deep enough into the dream – or into a game – you can seed an idea in someone, and it will get to them in that paranoid, strange little place where myths are born or perpetuated.

JG: That's certainly what I wanted to do. And I was greatly relieved when it turned out that it was working for some people. In fact, I would say that there are mental states accessible through computer games that similar to those accessible through drugs or meditation or religious experiences. You can break the shell of your mind, and find that your mind is bigger than you thought it was: there are frames beyond frames.

This probably sounds terribly pretentious, but **** it. I'm fascinated by computer games. They are capable, I think, of helping us achieve any of the mental states that we are capable of achieving. They are not a genre, not a toy; they are infinite, and we haven't begun to explore what they can do.
Click to expand...

Having all that said, Julian Gough himself in this interview shows that most of these things are metaphorical poems and philosophies to give us a certain kind of emotion not related to the lore of Minecraft, but rather to the stories we create and can create while we play the game, whether it is for a youtube series, or the adventure of some friends from vsbattles had in a world they created, or anything else in this ambit that can be defined as a dream -- gaming journey.

I fully support the idea of deleting the player as a thing in the minecraft verse, since it is a poem about people playing minecraft, and not about a piece of the lore that has become conscious of the real world, but rather the poem communicating to us that the journey of our story is over.
 
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I obviously agree with this. It's quite clear to me that the Real Player should at least be Low 1-C.

Regardless of the way you put it, be it a metaphor of a "dream" or otherwise, the Player literally sees the entirety of Minecraft as a game as said here:

"Sometimes it believed it was in a universe that was made of energy that was made of offs and ons; zeros and ones; lines of code. Sometimes it believed it was playing a game. Sometimes it believed it was reading words on a screen."

you are the player, reading words...

Shush... Sometimes the player read lines of code on a screen."
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"and sometimes the player believed the universe had spoken to it through the zeros and ones, through the electricity of the world, through the scrolling words on a screen at the end of a dream"
Click to expand...

And while this likely isn't canon, the End Poem is shown in Minecraft Novels, each with its own story, which kinda shows it's not a game mechanic just for the Player to see after the Ender Dragon is defeated.
 
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I can easily see how this reaches into Tier 1 for the Player and the Entities, but there's something that's really bugging me about how far into Tier 1 they go. Part of me wants to say that I'm just not quite getting it, and that I need to re-read it a couple more times, but I sincerely don't think that's actually the case.

From the provided evidence, there's enough basis to say that the Long Dream/Real World should be transcendent to the Minecraft World/Short Dream. And I'm even willing to say that the Entities being transcendent to the Long Dream, despite how odd it seems, also appears to be legit. But what about this part?


Sometimes the player dreamed it was a miner, on the surface of a world that was flat, and infinite. The sun was a square of white. The days were short; there was much to do; and death was a temporary inconvenience.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was lost in a story.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was other things, in other places. Sometimes these dreams were disturbing. Sometimes very beautiful indeed. Sometimes the player woke from one dream into another, then woke from that into a third.


This was quoted from the End Poem as evidence for the Second Dream being 5-D, and the Third Dream being 6-D, with the OP stating that the Player is "creating worlds much like the others, only to wake up into higher worlds at random"

Here's the issue. "Higher"? What part of this paragraph states, or even implies, that these dreams are higher dimensional to one another? If anything, this primarily appears to be a reference to the "many worlds" the Player may experience through Minecraft (or potentially other games, depending on how you interpret it; it's unnecessary to discuss in this context, since it's a digression to the point). There's nothing in this paragraph, or shown in the other parts of the End Poem, that should show why these dreams are considered higher dimensional to one another. It also just explicitly talks about their being many, many different dreams, from the dream of "being a miner" (obvious reference to Minecraft) to "being lost in a story" to "being in other places" (potentially a reference to playing other games?), with these dreams sometimes being "disturbing" or "beautiful". By all means, it just seems to imply that there's a bunch of things the Player engages with that could be considered "dreams", which refers to games and game worlds the Player experiences.

So... where is the Second Dream being 5-D and the Third Dream being 6-D coming from? That's just an example provided by the poem of the kinds of dreams the Player might have, and nothing states that this "third dream" should be higher dimensional.
 
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