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Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

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Ultima_Reality

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Everything is Tier 1.

The Thing
Alright, so, yesterday, I and a few other people noticed an issue with a few of the Minecraft profiles. Namely The Player and The Entities; to quote the latter's AP justification:

Described themselves as being the universe itself, being everything that the Player can touch, see or hear. They consider reality itself to be simple codes, said reality containing at least three universes, likely each infinite in size. They consider themselves to be on a higher level than the Player, who sees the Minecraft world as only a dream inside another dream, which is also yet in another. They oversee and are superior to at least millions of Players. Although due to the End Poem's vagueness, their exact tiering is hard to pin down.

To summarize it: We treat The Player as transcending the entire world of Minecraft, given that they created its entirety as a dream (Or a "small, private world") of theirs, alongside several different worlds of a similar nature, some of which are part of a nested structure of dreams within dreams, where The Player awakes from one dream and into another, only to wake up one more time, into a third dream.

The End Poem entities, meanwhile, are described as existing on a higher level of existence than The Player, and perceive even the Real World in which the latter lives as being itself another dream, although a long one, different in nature from the short, ephemeral dreams represented by the different worlds and stories which humans experience in their lifetimes.

Needless to say, this isn't 2-B. It's 1-C, given that the exact scale would then be more or less like this:

  • Minecraft World/Private Worlds in general = Low 2-C to 2-C (4-D)
  • Further Dreams = Low 1-C (Second dream being 5-D, and the third dream 6-D)
  • Real World = 1-C (7-D)
  • Entities = 1-C (8-D)

And this, for the matter, is very clearly supposed to be an hierarchy of levels of existence, given that the entities of the End Poem very explicitly state that, by dreaming up a story, The Player is creating entirely real worlds within their own thoughts:


But there are times it is sad, in the long dream. It creates worlds that have no summer, and it shivers under a black sun, and it takes its sad creation for reality.

To cure it of sorrow would destroy it. The sorrow is part of its own private task. We cannot interfere.

Sometimes when they are deep in dreams, I want to tell them, they are building true worlds in reality. Sometimes I want to tell them of their importance to the universe. Sometimes, when they have not made a true connection in a while, I want to help them to speak the word they fear.

Furthermore, the entities themselves repeatedly discuss ideas and concepts which are beyond the comprehension of The Player by virtue of originating from what is explicitly "the highest level" beyond "the long dream of life," and they even refer to these truths as being too strong for lower realities to bear at one point:

This player dreamed of sunlight and trees. Of fire and water. It dreamed it created. And it dreamed it destroyed. It dreamed it hunted, and was hunted. It dreamed of shelter.

Hah, the original interface. A million years old, and it still works. But what true structure did this player create, in the reality behind the screen?

It worked, with a million others, to sculpt a true world in a fold of the [scrambled], and created a [scrambled] for [scrambled], in the [scrambled].

It cannot read that thought.

No. It has not yet achieved the highest level. That, it must achieve in the long dream of life, not the short dream of a game.

It reads our thoughts.

Sometimes I do not care. Sometimes I wish to tell them, this world you take for truth is merely [scrambled] and [scrambled], I wish to tell them that they are [scrambled] in the [scrambled]. They see so little of reality, in their long dream.

And yet they play the game.

But it would be so easy to tell them...

Too strong for this dream. To tell them how to live is to prevent them living.

For reference, here are more instances where they refer to the real world as being just another dream:

PLAYERNAME. Player of games.

Good.

Take a breath, now. Take another. Feel air in your lungs. Let your limbs return. Yes, move your fingers. Have a body again, under gravity, in air. Respawn in the long dream. There you are. Your body touching the universe again at every point, as though you were separate things. As though we were separate things.

Let's go back.

The atoms of the player were scattered in the grass, in the rivers, in the air, in the ground. A woman gathered the atoms; she drank and ate and inhaled; and the woman assembled the player, in her body.

And the player awoke, from the warm, dark world of its mother's body, into the long dream.

And the paragraph where they describe The Player's nested dreams. In this case, we'd take the baseline to be a structure similar to that of the Minecraft World, at least, since the text doesn't seem to indicate they are delving deeper into dreams, but rather just creating worlds much like the others, only to wake up into higher worlds at random:

Sometimes the player dreamed it was a miner, on the surface of a world that was flat, and infinite. The sun was a square of white. The days were short; there was much to do; and death was a temporary inconvenience.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was lost in a story.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was other things, in other places. Sometimes these dreams were disturbing. Sometimes very beautiful indeed. Sometimes the player woke from one dream into another, then woke from that into a third.

If it wasn't clear by now, the "long dream of life" is nothing more than the dream of the universe itself, which exists as a monad beyond any separation, and utilizes beings such as The Player as assets so that it may experience itself, and the poem even compares it to the act of something "reading its own code."

and the universe said you are not alone

and the universe said you are not separate from every other thing

and the universe said you are the universe tasting itself, talking to itself, reading its own code

and the universe said I love you because you are love.

And the game was over and the player woke up from the dream. And the player began a new dream. And the player dreamed again, dreamed better. And the player was the universe. And the player was love.

You are the player.

Wake up.

This for the matter, would also grant Transduality to the entities, since "they" aren't really the universe as a literal, sentient organism and moreso a level where any distinction between any given thing disappears, and everything turns out to be a single force, with any separations being illusory and blah blah blah. Given the details above, their Intelligence should also be changed to Omniscient, for obvious reasons.

And, speaking of which: The profile itself should have its name changed, because the beings from the End Poem are never identified as "The Entities" at any point. In fact, the closest thing they have to a canon name is "The Universe," since the entire point of the poem is that they are not really two separate beings, but a single thing, expressing itself in different ways. So, the new name will be just that.

TL;DR The Player and The Entities should be 1-C, not 2-B.

Oh, yeah, and The Player's Real World key should lose Resurrection, too, since death being a temporary inconvenience to them pretty clearly refers to the fact that their incarnation within the game world can respawn after being killed.
 
Not a fan of Minecraft but i agree with this
It is also implied by the author of the poem that the hierarchy of layers of reality and dreams is infinite. But i don't sure its tier because so much metafiction and metaphor of it
TC: That's interesting to me, because there is this huge contrast between the ending you wrote – which is essentially a fairly cryptic short story 1,500 words long – and Minecraft itself, a sandbox game that's famous for its openness. I think people have given your story the title "wake up", because that line comes at the end, and it feels like it's about different layers of dreams, or realities…

JG: The word "dream" gets used, but it's really a story about the dream of a game, and the dream of life. It's dream as metaphor. I love the strangeness that comes when people get so lost in a game that the game becomes the world. Because you do get lost like that. Especially in something like Minecraft, that's so endless. You're actually startled to come back into your life at the end of it. So I wanted to play with that moment, where you're between two worlds, and for a short little period you're not sure which one is more real.


TC: I think this is another reason why I'm so interested in the film Inception, to go back to that, because part of its message is that if you go deep enough into the dream – or into a game – you can seed an idea in someone, and it will get to them in that paranoid, strange little place where myths are born or perpetuated.

JG: That's certainly what I wanted to do. And I was greatly relieved when it turned out that it was working for some people. In fact, I would say that there are mental states accessible through computer games that similar to those accessible through drugs or meditation or religious experiences. You can break the shell of your mind, and find that your mind is bigger than you thought it was: there are frames beyond frames.

This probably sounds terribly pretentious, but **** it. I'm fascinated by computer games. They are capable, I think, of helping us achieve any of the mental states that we are capable of achieving. They are not a genre, not a toy; they are infinite, and we haven't begun to explore what they can do.

 
Damn... Steve is the strongest Smash Bros Character...

Until Persona gets that 1-A upgrade or, failing that, gets to 1-C itself so a match can be made.

Anyways, this is really straight forward as Tier 1 revisions go, so I agree.
 
JG: The word "dream" gets used, but it's really a story about the dream of a game, and the dream of life. It's dream as metaphor. I love the strangeness that comes when people get so lost in a game that the game becomes the world. Because you do get lost like that. Especially in something like Minecraft, that's so endless. You're actually startled to come back into your life at the end of it. So I wanted to play with that moment, where you're between two worlds, and for a short little period you're not sure which one is more real.
So are gonna ignore how it sounds like "The End Poem" or "Entites" shit isn't meant to be taken literal at all, and that dream is meant to imply the player getting lost into the game, rather than they are literally dreaming the world due to Minecraft being you doing anything you want?
 
So are gonna ignore how it sounds like "The End Poem" or "Entites" shit isn't meant to be taken literal at all, and that dream is meant to imply the player getting lost into the game, rather than they are literally dreaming the world due to Minecraft being you doing anything you want?
Yeah, because the author is pretty clearly talking about the contents of the End Poem from a meta-textual point of view, where it indeed is just meant to express someone immersing themselves into the game world. The profile itself indexes the "internal" interpretation provided by the text itself, where these worlds are very clearly actual realities. The very beginning of the poem talks about The Player having some greater purpose in the grand scheme of the universe, so, yeah, there very clearly is a disconnect between the two points of view you can take in relation to it.
 
Well, I don't seem to be having any problems with this so agree
 
Yeah, because the author is pretty clearly talking about the contents of the End Poem from a meta-textual point of view, where it indeed is just meant to express someone immersing themselves into the game world. The profile itself indexes the "internal" interpretation provided by the text itself, where these worlds are very clearly actual realities. The very beginning of the poem talks about The Player having some greater purpose in the grand scheme of the universe, so, yeah, there very clearly is a disconnect between the two points of view you can take in relation to it.
Well no, because you're essentially saying everything there was taken as 100% literal, despite the fact that the author himself just says that what was written was just a metaphor describing the relationship between a player getting lost into their own Minecraft world they've played and worked on. You can't just claim "yes, all of this meant this", have an author say "no, it actually meant that", but proceed to claim it's from his perspective only and what he wrote was actually just literal for everyone else. See that doesn't make sense and makes a loophole. It's meant to just be metaphorical as a whole. I don't care if the profile only indexes what's said in the game only if we're directly going against what WoG just stated.
 
Like genuinely, this is going against what you directly claim, but choose to say no because it's from his perspective as the writer? It's meant to be metaphorical as a whole, dream blatantly just means the player not taking showers and playing Minecraft for so long he's lost in the game.
 
Well no, because you're essentially saying everything there was taken as 100% literal, despite the fact that the author himself just says that what was written was just a metaphor describing the relationship between a player getting lost into their own Minecraft world they've played and worked on. You can't just claim "yes, all of this meant this", have an author say "no, it actually meant that", but proceed to claim it's from his perspective only and what he wrote was actually just literal for everyone else. See that doesn't make sense and makes a loophole. It's meant to just be metaphorical as a whole. I don't care if the profile only indexes what's said in the game only if we're directly going against what WoG just stated.
Death of the Author is a very valid thing, and is something we often apply when the contents of the text itself visibly clash with what the author takes it to mean, so, I don't see why we'd take that WoG as a necessary priority for anything. Especially since, again, the direct context of the Poem talks about things on a cosmic scale anyway, and uses these things as metaphors for things that happen in real life. By that logic, you could probably apply the same argument to any story with a concise set of themes underlying it, too.

That aside: Yes, I am taking everything as being 100% literal because the profiles themselves also take the contents of the End Poem as being 100% literal, and thus, I am taking them to the actual, logical conclusion of the descriptions present in them. If you want to go with the route that it's all just metaphorical, then you might as well just delete these two profiles altogether; I don't really mind either option.
 
TBH I wouldn't mind the two profiles being removed, but that's beyond the topic of this thread.
 
Death of the Author is a very valid thing, and is something we often apply when the contents of the text itself visibly clash with what the author takes it to mean, so, I don't see why we'd take that WoG as a necessary priority for anything. Especially since, again, the direct context of the Poem talks about things on a cosmic scale anyway, and uses these things as metaphors for things that happen in real life. By that logic, you could probably apply that same argument to any story with a concise set of themes underlying it, too.
You can't argue death of the author without providing reasoning as to why their word is wrong. Absolutely what is objectively incorrect about them saying what was written is just metaphorical sense on how the relationship between a Player and their game is? What does it contradict? I don't care what scale they were referring it to if none of it is even meant to be true to begin with. By your own logic, a character claiming that they can destroy all of space-time, but the author states that it was an exaggeration, you're claiming we should ignore that since WoG isn't a priority. Despite the fact that they who wrote the script, said it wasn't intended to mean what others did. And if other verses fall victim to this, great, means they're wrong too.


That aside: Yes, I am taking everything as being 100% literal because the profiles themselves also take the contents of the End Poem as being 100% literal, and thus, I am taking them to the actual, logical conclusion of the descriptions present in them. If you want to go with the route that it's all just metaphorical, then you might as well just delete these two profiles altogether; I don't really mind either option.
If me saying that all of it is metaphorical and thus causes the profiles to be deleted, then I have no problems with that. I could see your point if we were to just look at the game itself, but due to the writer just saying it wasn't meant to be taken how we are taking it, then it's wrong.
 
You can't argue death of the author without providing reasoning as to why their word is wrong. Absolutely what is objectively incorrect about them saying what was written is just metaphorical sense on how the relationship between a Player and their game is? What does it contradict?
It contradicts the fact that, for one, the Universe as a whole is visibly being portrayed as a sentient being within the context of the poem, which then goes to explicitly state that the worlds which The Player creates are very real, and exist within their mind, and also that The Player himself plays a role in the scheme of the world due to that. As seen here:

But there are times it is sad, in the long dream. It creates worlds that have no summer, and it shivers under a black sun, and it takes its sad creation for reality.

To cure it of sorrow would destroy it. The sorrow is part of its own private task. We cannot interfere.

Sometimes when they are deep in dreams, I want to tell them, they are building true worlds in reality. Sometimes I want to tell them of their importance to the universe. Sometimes, when they have not made a true connection in a while, I want to help them to speak the word they fear.

Shush. Sometimes the player created a small, private world that was soft and warm and simple. Sometimes hard, and cold, and complicated. Sometimes it built a model of the universe in its head; flecks of energy, moving through vast empty spaces. Sometimes it called those flecks "electrons" and "protons".

Sometimes it called them "planets" and "stars".

Sometimes it believed it was in a universe that was made of energy that was made of offs and ons; zeros and ones; lines of code. Sometimes it believed it was playing a game. Sometimes it believed it was reading words on a screen.

So, yeah, while those statements can definitely be seen as metaphors for way, way more mundane things, this is also something that's seen in fiction as a whole, and not just Minecraft. Again, by the logic you are using, you could also very well apply this standard to any verse that has a consistent set of themes which it uses to convey some message, or that has each of its characters be metaphors or allusions to more abstract things, which is a pretty damn large chunk of fiction, like I said. Hence why we don't do that: We just go by what the text strictly states, always, and what the Author interpreted it as on a purely literary level when they wrote it has no bearing here.

If me saying that all of it is metaphorical and thus causes the profiles to be deleted, then I have no problems with that.
Yeah, so, It seems we agree on that much.
 
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Suffice to say I'm against using the End Poems as a literal statement of Tier 2/1 buggery. Death of the author only goes so far, we do accept authorial statements in times when they are needed. I believe the above thread proves it is ever so desperately needed to remind people that in no universe has Minecraft done anything Tier 2, much less Tier 1. My faith in you people drains by the minute.
 
I believe the above thread proves it is ever so desperately needed to remind people that in no universe has Minecraft done anything Tier 2, much less Tier 1. My faith in you people drains by the minute.
But muh minecraft herobrine entity303 fanfiction that is for some reason an official book in my school library like what the hell how is this thing on store shelves I didn't know I could sell fanfiction in irl book stores I could probably make a profit off of that
 
But muh minecraft herobrine entity303 fanfiction that is for some reason an official book in my school library like what the hell how is this thing on store shelves I didn't know I could sell fanfiction in irl book stores I could probably make a profit off of that
You will be the first to be purged, Ed.
 
By the way, to clarify my stance here, just in case it's lost in translation:

"End Poem is a 100% literal cosmological thing" = 1-C is fine.

"End Poem is purely metaphorical and not something which relates to anything within the setting" = Deleting the profiles is fine.

So, all things considered, my opinion can agree with either side so long as we stick to one end or the other.
 
By the way, to clarify my stance here, just in case it's lost in translation:

"End Poem is a 100% literal cosmological thing" = 1-C is fine.

"End Poem is purely metaphorical and not something which relates to anything within the setting" = Deleting the profiles is fine.

So, all things considered, my opinion can agree with either side so long as we stick to one end or the other.
I think there are things that can be used from the poem, for example the world being said to be infinite, but the whole Player relationship is simply us--the beings in the other side of the screen, the player is even referenced with the Nick you choose as well. If your nick is "[email protected]" then this is exactly who the player is, the whole dream of the player thing is just poetry at the end credits talking about the journey you as a player of minecraft had through playing the game.

This is just the credits enjoying our gameplay with a letter for us breaking the fourth wall.
 
Personal Thoughts: I always thinked that scaling to the poem was incredibly vague compared to the game itself. This is just a poem that we get at the end of the game, which on many aspects is metaphorical as said by the creators themselves, and even if it wasn't we shouldn't use it anyways since it's not an actual thing in game if not some bunch of words which would have represented an important meaning. So removing Low 2-C, 2-C and 2-B is ok for steve, but the entities should go.
 
I think it’s literal in the context of the story while also being metaphorical in the message it's supposed to give to the player.
 
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