Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

[Dominodalek]

From the arguments presented in the thread I agree with deleting the profiles.

 

[Leotamer]

"Word of God" refers to statements by the author.

However, the author's statements are not saying that the story is a metaphor within the overall story of Minecraft.

The author explains two things: the analog and emotional experience he attempted to craft with the story, which doesn't mean anything for our purposes. Plenty of stories have applicability and most stories are intended to invoke an emotion or thought.

The other is that the dream is a metaphor. This is not in question. It is about perception, and how the player perceives the game and life, both of which are compared to dreams.

It feels like the argument for deleting the profiles centers around an argument from incredulity. It is also called an appeal to common sense. You can not argue against, "Well, I don't think it makes sense." We can argue against reasons why it doesn't make sense, but we argue against one reason and it feels like you just switch to another reason why we should ignore what is happening in the game because you think it is weird. Fiction can get weird.

 

[KieranH10]

The arguments for deleting the profiles are because in that interview the creator of the story stated themselves that the game wasn't taken into account at all for it afaik. They essentially wrote it as if it were a separate piece of media, it just simply got added to the end of the game as a credits sequence.

 

[Paul_Frank]

No the arguments for deleting it are because the author of it said its a metaphor. The counter argument to that has been "Well that doesn't mean we can't take it literally"

 

[Alonik]

Taking that as literal makes me Low 1-C, we need a Alonik profile or any other minecraft player in the wiki and upgrade the real world since we are taking literal a text about our real world and not a fictional real world, just saying.

 

[Leotamer]

The arguments for deleting the profiles are because in that interview the creator of the story stated themselves that the game wasn't taken into account at all for it afaik. They essentially wrote it as if it were a separate piece of media, it just simply got added to the end of the game as a credits sequence.

That is seperate from the argument I was complaining about, and I don't believe it is without merit, but I don't see why we draw that conclusion. If we take it as a seperate piece of work, then we can still power-scale it. It wasn't like it was accidentally added to Minecraft. This would be akin to saying we couldn't have a character profile because a character was introduced in the sequel. This work is not contradictory to the original, approved by the original creator and the two works are presented subsequently.

No the arguments for deleting it are because the author of it said its a metaphor. The counter argument to that has been "Well that doesn't mean we can't take it literally"

This is simply false. The interview states the dream is a metaphor. He refers to the story as a fictional story, because it is. He was describing his writing process and what he was trying to convey with it. This is irrelevant to power-scaling.

Alonik is just pretending to not now fiction works to derail the argument.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

dang they wasnt lying abour 8-D minecraft

Nintendo finally beats sega

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The arguments for deleting the profiles are because in that interview the creator of the story stated themselves that the game wasn't taken into account at all for it afaik. They essentially wrote it as if it were a separate piece of media, it just simply got added to the end of the game as a credits sequence.

Could you refer me to who claimed this before this comment? I saw "inconsistent", "misinterpreted", "pat on the back for the player", but not "it's a different media".

It's a wrong argument though. Notch hired someone to write an ending, specifically looking for something obnoxiously long (I don't remember the exact wording). He read the poem written by the writer, aproved of it, and put it into his game.

The writer expressed how it was written in a way that sticks out from the game on purpose. He has also stated he was happy he didn't need to write about the origin of dragons instead of what came to him. He does not claim "I just wrote this and threw it into this game".

Several parts of the poem reference minecraft as a game, and infinite squared world, 0s and 1s, etc.


It's part of the game, you can't just say... it's not.

 

[Livinmeme]

it is part of the game accept it and live with it

 

[Livinmeme]

Also saying that is just flowery languaje would make the only real lore of minecraft non exist and remove the inmortality of steve

and also the poem explain why steve can revive

 

[TheGatememer]

It's not just a letter to the player, its an established part of Minecraft's lore. I've said this like 3 times at this point, but it's even been shown in "The End" novel for minecraft, proving it isn't just a letter to the player/us.

 

[Livinmeme]

Yep also is a vital part of the plot because well is really one of the only lore that explain one of the most important mechanic of minecraft as canon

 

[TheGatememer]

It would be canon either way since respawning is shown in the trailers

 

[manu_zarri]

Nintendo finally beats sega

At peak Microsoft, but not java edition so.

sorry for derailing anyways

 

[KieranH10]

Perhaps I misunderstood then, which is why I stayed neutral for now.

 

[FinePoint]

There are several reasons we reject profiles or additions even if they are considered canon.

They may not have feats by which we can we can clearly index them, their information may be vague, or sometimes simply because the feats feel so completely put of place that we name it an outlier or PIS.

Whether this information is canon is debatable based on what I've read here. That in combination with the fact that this poem is the only thing even remotely approaching a tier this high and that it largely doesn't represent any iconic Minecraft characters pushes me towards deleting it.

 

[Livinmeme]

There are several reasons we reject profiles or additions even if they are considered canon.

They may not have feats by which we can we can clearly index them, their information may be vague, or sometimes simply because the feats feel so completely put of place that we name it an outlier or PIS.

Whether this information is canon is debatable based on what I've read here. That in combination with the fact that this poem is the only thing even remotely approaching a tier this high and that it largely doesn't represent any iconic Minecraft characters pushes me towards deleting it.

How is not representing the poem minecraft is worth from deletion or even a reason to delete something?

 

[GyroNutz]

They are enabled on the 'more world options' page, where you change your terrain type, enter a seed, or toggle structures or a bonus chest. And you use cheats by typing them in chat. I don't see how they fall outside of the scope of playing the game normally?

You can't give yourself a command block via in-game menus, and certainly can't obtain it through regular gameplay. Creative mode isn't considered canon even though we accepted the overblown interpretation of the end poem, so I have no idea why command blocks would be.

 

[TheGatememer]

It's not an outlier, as this doesn't apply to anyone but The Real Player/The Entities. They view all of Minecraft as fiction, while everything else is just part of the game.

A character doesn't need to be "iconic" for us to index it. I'll admit some parts of the poem are vague, but parts of it are so clear as day that it would basically be ignoring feats.

 

[FinePoint]

How is not representing the poem minecraft is worth from deletion or even a reason to delete something?

Alone I wouldn't say it is, but it feels out of place AND Word of god reveals it was largely meaningless.

 

[TheGatememer]

Alone I wouldn't say it is, but it feels out of place AND Word of god reveals it was largely meaningless.

Whether or not it was completely serious doesn't change the fact that it is part of Minecraft's lore. It's not like an offhand statement, It's still part of Minecraft.

 

[Livinmeme]

Alone I wouldn't say it is, but it feels out of place AND Word of god reveals it was largely meaningless.

They alredy explained that the poem has heigth on it and is a big part of the game with the only lore IN-Game not counting trailers or video etc. that reveals the plot of the game

 

[FinePoint]

There simply doesn't feel to be enough information to justify profiles to me. The characters are introduced only in this debatably vague poem, are completely different from anything in the gameplay, and misrepresents the series in my opinion.

Much of the argument seems to rely on personal interpretations of the poem, and if we're this split on whether it's even literal or not it seems like the safer play is to not include it.

That's all I'll say until further input, as to not clog the thread.

 

[Alonik]

Just remembering that even if we were to accept the validity of the text, creating a dream should not escalate to AP if it is not shown as something that can be used offensively. If I'm wrong someone on staff correct me, but the creation feat standards should only be applied to attack if it is actually possible to use as an attack potency.

 

[Livinmeme]

There simply doesn't feel to be enough information to justify profiles to me. The characters are introduced only in this debatably vague poem, are completely different from anything in the gameplay, and misrepresents the series in my opinion.

Much of the argument seems to rely on personal interpretations of the poem, and if we're this split on whether it's even literal or not it seems like the safer play is to not include it.

That's all I'll say until further input, as to not clog the thread.

... are we even in the same poem. they literally said that the player sees a 4-D structure aka minecraft as fiction that is 5-D by that alone

 

[Livinmeme]

Just remembering that even if we were to accept the validity of the text, creating a dream should not escalate to AP if it is not shown as something that can be used offensively. If I'm wrong someone on staff correct me, but the creation feat standards should only be applied to attack if it is actually possible to use as an attack potency.

no? they are low 1-C by seing that as fiction

 

[TheGatememer]

There simply doesn't feel to be enough information to justify profiles to me. The characters are introduced only in this debatably vague poem, are completely different from anything in the gameplay, and misrepresents the series in my opinion.

Much of the argument seems to rely on personal interpretations of the poem, and if we're this split on whether it's even literal or not it seems like the safer play is to not include it.

Not really, as some parts are, well as clear you can get. The poem clearly states that the Player views Minecraft as just a game behind the screen, and that they created "private worlds" and what not.

 

[Leotamer]

You can't give yourself a command block via in-game menus, and certainly can't obtain it through regular gameplay. Creative mode isn't considered canon even though we accepted the overblown interpretation of the end poem, so I have no idea why command blocks would be.

Turning cheats on/off is done during world creation, if we presume the player views Minecraft as a game and is creating and destroying these worlds at his leisure, then there is no reason to presume he doesn't have access to Creative Mode. This is not an overly-literal intrepretation. It is just what those words the characters say literally mean.

If we deny the poem, then Creative Mode is seperate debate which was brought up but have not been discussed.

If you say cheats are not canon, then the block that lets you input cheats are also non-canon. This is just a disguised circular argument.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

There are several reasons we reject profiles or additions even if they are considered canon.

Certainly. They do not apply here.

They may not have feats by which we can we can clearly index them,

They do here, they are stated to create whole universes just by thinking/dreaming them into existence, and such as with the bleak universe, they are destroyed if the player doesn't imagine them. There are several examples given in the poem.

their information may be vague,

It isn't here. It is a 15-minute explanation, that goes into not only statements but examples. There is a difference between "he could destroy a universe" and "he destroyed the universe". The former is purely a statement that could be hyperbole, the latter is either a lie or a feat that happened off screen. You can't assume it's a lie based on nothing.

or sometimes simply because the feats feel so completely put of place that we name it an outlier

Which is impossible here, as the entirety of the story takes place in what the entities this tier applies view as fiction. There is no contradiction, an in depth explaination, and the universe itself is a damn believable source. Plus, the novels.

or PIS.

Which it isn't, as plot-induced stupidity cannot apply in any way.

Whether this information is canon is debatable based on what I've read here.

I... just disagree. Don't know how else to argue it besides what I've already written here. It's in the game. The creator of the game hired someone to write it with the express purpose of making it the ending of the game. That is it. You can't be any more canon for a game than "you're an unavoidable event upon completion of the game the verse is based on".

That in combination with the fact that this poem is the only thing even remotely approaching a tier this high

This doesn't matter. It just... doesn't. Again, the one this tier is being applied to is the entirety of the verse, which is a sentient universe observing itself and creating whole realities on a whim, with the game being one of many such realities. There being a god-tier absolutely above everything else in a verse isn't new, or unacceptable.

and that it largely doesn't represent any iconic Minecraft characters

Except for the main character..? Steve is the player. Who is the universe. And regardless, this argument only applies for a whole verse (only five people read this piece of fiction in the whole world) kind of deals, not a singular character from one of the most well-known games.

There simply doesn't feel to be enough information to justify profiles to me.

It's fifteen minutes that goes into specifics.

The characters are introduced only in this debatably vague poem,

Ah yes, look at this ambiguity: "And the player was the universe."
What could it mean?

Seriously, I went on above to post how it isn't, in fact, vague. With more blatant quotes!

are completely different from anything in the gameplay,

Again, subverting expectations has no bearing on whether something can get a profile or not. What, the telepathic alien from Aquila Rift that put everyone into a dream world that it had some control over can't get a profile because in the whole book besides the ending reveal there isn't anything remotely as incredible as it? This isn't an actual reason for deletion, it's just a different way to express an argument out of disbelief.

and misrepresents the series in my opinion.

Well go tell that to Notch, who read the poem, and agreed to it. If the poem's writer is to be believed, Notch and he share philosophies.

Also, again, still not a reason to delete or not index something? Thematic consistency is not up to vsdebaters to decide.

Much of the argument seems to rely on personal interpretations of the poem,

Truly, there are so many ways to interpret " the universe said you are the universe tasting itself, talking to itself, reading its own code" right after "And the player was the universe." There are a million different interpretations to be gleamed here...

And yes, as I had to repeat this several times through the thread, I will keep being sarcastic about it. If you wish, I can just copy-paste past arguments instead, they should work just as fine here...

and if we're this split on whether it's even literal or not

We're split because it's minecraft. Don't even try to look me in the eye - metaphorically as may be - and tell me that if someone saw this poem isolated or with no knowledge of minecraft, they would be so opposed to the idea of taking outright statements done in story.

 

[Livinmeme]

this look like if the poem was in another series it would be insta accepted but because is minecraft is time to say "nah the poem is subjective but in a way that is good for me and debunks all your argument"

 

[Leotamer]

This is the wiki that has super-composite Mario with ultra-fate haxes. I don't think Mario needs a downgrade, but characters punching far above their imagined weight-class is not new.

 

[Antvasima]

So have these suggested upgrades been sufficiently rejected yet?

 

[Livinmeme]

Also the argument of fine point is appealing into "minecraft is just a cube game so is not valid"

 

[TheGatememer]

So have these suggested upgrades been sufficiently rejected yet?

No, both sides still seem to be debating.

 

[Livinmeme]

So have these suggested upgrades been sufficiently rejected yet?

well they are being debunked and there are more people in favor that disagree so...

 

[Livinmeme]

No, both sides still seem to be debating.

Yep but the main point of the opponent was debunked really hard so that is a thing

 

[MrKerf]

We can discuss both Creative mode and Command Block in another thread.

 

[KieranH10]

both sides are still debating from what I can gather.

 

[Livinmeme]

We can discuss both Creative mode and Command Block in another thread.

Yep they should been discussed in another thread

also command block has been in several minecraft medias so that is argument

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Hm I'm starting to see that Ricsi's a little more right, according to the arguments. So... agree low 1-c for now