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Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

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Ah yeah about the dream...
I think it's more like the player logging out of 1 world and creating a new world or logging into another world
 
DarkGrath said:
I can easily see how this reaches into Tier 1 for the Player and the Entities, but there's something that's really bugging me about how far into Tier 1 they go. Part of me wants to say that I'm just not quite getting it, and that I need to re-read it a couple more times, but I sincerely don't think that's actually the case.

From the provided evidence, there's enough basis to say that the Long Dream/Real World should be transcendent to the Minecraft World/Short Dream. And I'm even willing to say that the Entities being transcendent to the Long Dream, despite how odd it seems, also appears to be legit. But what about this part?


Sometimes the player dreamed it was a miner, on the surface of a world that was flat, and infinite. The sun was a square of white. The days were short; there was much to do; and death was a temporary inconvenience.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was lost in a story.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was other things, in other places. Sometimes these dreams were disturbing. Sometimes very beautiful indeed. Sometimes the player woke from one dream into another, then woke from that into a third.


This was quoted from the End Poem as evidence for the Second Dream being 5-D, and the Third Dream being 6-D, with the OP stating that the Player is "creating worlds much like the others, only to wake up into higher worlds at random"

Here's the issue. "Higher"? What part of this paragraph states, or even implies, that these dreams are higher dimensional to one another? If anything, this primarily appears to be a reference to the "many worlds" the Player may experience through Minecraft (or potentially other games, depending on how you interpret it; it's unnecessary to discuss in this context, since it's a digression to the point). There's nothing in this paragraph, or shown in the other parts of the End Poem, that should show why these dreams are considered higher dimensional to one another. It also just explicitly talks about their being many, many different dreams, from the dream of "being a miner" (obvious reference to Minecraft) to "being lost in a story" to "being in other places" (potentially a reference to playing other games?), with these dreams sometimes being "disturbing" or "beautiful". By all means, it just seems to imply that there's a bunch of things the Player engages with that could be considered "dreams", which refers to games and game worlds the Player experiences.

So... where is the Second Dream being 5-D and the Third Dream being 6-D coming from? That's just an example provided by the poem of the kinds of dreams the Player might have, and nothing states that this "third dream" should be higher dimensional.
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detailed version of what I mean. I agree with you
 
If the author has straight up said the poem is just metaphorical, and this poem is the only thing supporting the existence of the Player key, and The Entities as a profile, then yeah, I'm fine with deleting them too.
 
They didn't really disprove their existence. Even if the dream stuff is metaphorical (which is what the interview was referring to), nothing really contradicts the fact that the Player themselves still sees Minecraft as just a game.
 
The_Pink_God said:
Ok that's cool and all but
How do we make sure this isn't just flowery language?
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the whole poem is flowery language, but they say they are the universe they say it literally and they talk about it in details, maybe we could not even remove the profiles but analyze which parts are normal language or metaphors
 
The_Pink_God said:
Ok that's cool and all but
How do we make sure this isn't just flowery language?
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Because the poem straight up says that the player is looking at words behind a screen.

And the author themselves said that they wanted to do an ending that was "outside the game"
 
I realized I couldn't care less anymore but if the deletion does go through the type 9 immortality will just be replaced with standard resurrection

If you completely ignore the poem then the respawn mechanic is still canon due to the existence of the respawn anchor in the new Nether Update as well as cinematics showing that characters respawn after death.
 
Would completely ignoring the poem downgrade the Story Mode High 3-As? Since the Minecraft world being infinite is from the end poem?
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
Would completely ignoring the poem downgrade the Story Mode High 3-As? Since the Minecraft world being infinite is from the end poem?
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The story mode goes into what is at the far ends of the world, where there's randomly generated chunks that act weird/glitched. I don't see how anyone would scale physically to that from there, but that holds no importance here since Story Mode not only establishes it's own rules, but is obviously not the same as the minecraft played by the single player.
 
Are we conflating Dolyist and Watsonian explanations? The writer using a character as a metaphor for something doesn't mean that character isn't what the narrative says it is, those occur on two different layers of reality, our reality vs the reality of the game.

While this being meta makes it more complicated, the fact that fiction doesn't impact our reality just means that there is now 3 layers: the game reality, the meta reality and our reality. The meta reality represents our reality, but it isn't because that isn't how fiction works.

The Dolyist explaination is the reason why the author wrote something a certain way and is completely out of the scope of power-scaling.
 
could someone explain to me why the commands or the creative mode are not taken as canons? like they are still part of the game, i think High 3-A key should be a thing
 
GyroNutz said:
I mean, the command block doesn't really exist in "canon" Minecraft.
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Then it should likely only have it's story mode feats and abilities.

However without the credits, what clarifies as "canon" minecraft? There's very little lore or story regarding such, pretty much only gameplay, which I believe has been a problem with minecraft many times in the past.

I'm personally fine with simply keeping the command block profile and separating keys, but I believe if we were to do such, creative mode would have to be considered too, since with the generally accepted version of the games 'lore' now being declined, the entire verse is under the same confines, meaning command blocks and creative mode would likely have to be reconsidered for keys.
 
Minecraft the game is a narrative, it is about a character that has the canon name of either Steve or Alex, who survives within a hostile world who grows in powerful until he slays a dragon.

The End-Poem is a narrative about the narrative of Minecraft. It is specifically a narratibe because it uses fictional characters and makes fictional claims. This is seperate from a game dev leaving an open-letter in the end credits, that would be non-fiction. Thus, the End-Poem is a meta-narrative.

There is no reason not to include both on the wiki. They are both the story of Minecraft, just from different narrative perspectives.

My suggestion is the nuke the Entities, as ironically they are featless non-entities. They exist in the narrative, but we don't really know what they can do. Then seperate Steve/Alex, the character from the narrative, from The Player, the character from the meta-narrative.
 
GyroNutz said:
If it's completely unobtainable without cheats, then it shouldn't be "canon".
Click to expand...
If we accept the End Poem as canon, then there is no reason not to accept Creative Player.

If the world of Minecraft is just the playground for a dreaming god, then what would be contradicted if he sometimes dreams himself as a adventurous miner and others as a force of creation ( or destruction depending on how you play creative mode. )
 
Rtxthegamer said:
I still don't think that we should completely disregard the End Poem, since it is intended to be a part of the game.
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We should, since the player is not an in-game being, it is us real beings playing the game as the writer of the end poem described several times during the interview.
 
Aight, so if we're disregarding the end poem, and command blocks aren't allowed since they can't be acquired through anything other than cheats, where does creative mode fit. The player can create worlds in which creative mode is the default for the player, so it should still be considered.
 
Alonik said:
We should, since the player is not an in-game being, it is us real beings playing the game as the writer of the end poem described several times during the interview.
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The poem is a work of fiction. It has fictional characters and refers to fictional events. It thus can be judged by the same criteria any work of fiction can be, including power-scaling.

The fact that the poem is regarding a real person does not invalidate that it is a fiction. Hamilton the Musical is still fictional, historical fiction but fiction. Stan Lee cameoing in Marvel movies does not mean that version of Stan Lee isn't a fiction character.

The fact that the poem is an analogy doesn't preclude it from being fiction or having an entire narrative. The Chronicles of Narnia is a giant Christian analogy, but that doesn't mean that we can judge the series independant of that.
 
Leotamer said:
If we accept the End Poem as canon, then there is no reason not to accept Creative Player.

If the world of Minecraft is just the playground for a dreaming god, then what would be contradicted if he sometimes dreams himself as a adventurous miner and others as a force of creation ( or destruction depending on how you play creative mode. )
Click to expand...
Command Blocks aren't even accessible in the creative mode menu though. It's literally just through cheats.
 
Alonik said:
We should, since the player is not an in-game being, it is us real beings playing the game as the writer of the end poem described several times during the interview.
Click to expand...
That shouldn't be enough to disregard it entirely. The Player is still a fictional character, as they have their own story, regardless of whether or not its regarding a real person. Not to mention, the End poem itself is a part of Minecraft's lore, which is seen in Minecraft's "The End" novel.
 
As I said before, the WoG does not have to mean the poem has to be thrown out. After thinking of it - yeah, I don't think it should be disregarded. The metaphor is how similar life can be to games, and how people interact with it. That does not make the poem mean only that. Firstly, it outright states that real life is fiction just as the game is on no uncertain terms. It claims that we perceive our dreams differently, through screens or personally, but that they are still dreams.

However, I do not agree that long and short dreams are lesser or superior. Both are dreams. A dream in a dream does not make the second dream less or more real, both are simply in your brain. Just because we perceive worlds while going through our life does not mean that we are higher dimensional. Hell, the poem acknowledges that the "short dream" in this case is made of 1s and 0s, so that would be 10-C by IRL perspective. It's also the point of the poem, that our life is no less a dream than the fantasies and games we immerse ourself into.

The entity should merely be Low 1-C.
 
TL;DR: The End Poem claims the player is a self-observing universe that morphs in shape and laws from games to tales to our "reality" based on its own dreams. So, Low 1-C, or potentially even simply a 2-C/2-B with really jacked shapeshifting.

Here, I decided to get some quotes to justify my take. While they claim of reaching higher and lower levels, it isn't about our vsdebating dimensional kind, but the more philosophical "understand reality". That's the recurring theme, that games, tales, imagination, and even our own senses are merely interpretations of the true universe.

The screen is our perception. The reality behind it, is the universe as is.

Now then...

The real universe is not a dream:
Does it know that we love it? That the universe is kind?

Sometimes, through the noise of its thoughts, it hears the universe, yes.
Click to expand...
But there are times it is sad, in the long dream. It creates worlds that have no summer, and it shivers under a black sun, and it takes its sad creation for reality.
Click to expand...
Both of these quotes refer to the real world independent of what the player knows of, or truly perceives.




Now, to prove that all dreams are merely different interpretations with no transcendence:

Text and words (latter likely referring to oral folklore) are just different methods for the same thing.
Words make a wonderful interface. Very flexible. And less terrifying than staring at the reality behind the screen.

They used to hear voices. Before players could read. Back in the days when those who did not play called the players witches, and warlocks. And players dreamed they flew through the air, on sticks powered by demons.
Click to expand...

It refers to our real lives as a dream and as an interface as well, but points out that it is still separate from the reality behind the screen. They are still only dreams. But waking from one dream to another does not make one dream lesser or superior to the other, or at least no context or proof was given for such an idea.
This player dreamed of sunlight and trees. Of fire and water. It dreamed it created. And it dreamed it destroyed. It dreamed it hunted, and was hunted. It dreamed of shelter.

Hah, the original interface. A million years old, and it still works. But what true structure did this player create, in the reality behind the screen?
Click to expand...
Sometimes it thought itself human, on the thin crust of a spinning globe of molten rock. The ball of molten rock circled a ball of blazing gas that was three hundred and thirty thousand times more massive than it. They were so far apart that light took eight minutes to cross the gap. The light was information from a star, and it could burn your skin from a hundred and fifty million kilometres away.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was a miner, on the surface of a world that was flat, and infinite. The sun was a square of white. The days were short; there was much to do; and death was a temporary inconvenience.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was lost in a story.

Sometimes the player dreamed it was other things, in other places. Sometimes these dreams were disturbing. Sometimes very beautiful indeed. Sometimes the player woke from one dream into another, then woke from that into a third.
Click to expand...

The universe is merely what we believed in our head, and is no different than a world of 1s and 0s.
Shush. Sometimes the player created a small, private world that was soft and warm and simple. Sometimes hard, and cold, and complicated. Sometimes it built a model of the universe in its head; flecks of energy, moving through vast empty spaces. Sometimes it called those flecks "electrons" and "protons".

Sometimes it called them "planets" and "stars".

Sometimes it believed it was in a universe that was made of energy that was made of offs and ons; zeros and ones; lines of code. Sometimes it believed it was playing a game. Sometimes it believed it was reading words on a screen.
Click to expand...

Reality is something you see little of in the dreams.
Sometimes I do not care. Sometimes I wish to tell them, this world you take for truth is merely [scrambled] and [scrambled], I wish to tell them that they are [scrambled] in the [scrambled]. They see so little of reality, in their long dream.
Click to expand...



Lastly, what is the player? It's everything. This is hinted at several times throughout the poem, but spelled out in the end.
and the universe said you are not separate from every other thing

and the universe said you are the universe tasting itself, talking to itself, reading its own code
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The player is the entities and it's everything else around it. Us being humans is described as only a dream as well.

The player is simply a universe morphing and witnessing itself.

So... arguably, it isn't even enough to claim transcendence over itself. Either Low 1-C or tier 2, but definitely not 1-C with just the poem.
 
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GyroNutz said:
Command Blocks aren't even accessible in the creative mode menu though. It's literally just through cheats.
Click to expand...
With the poem, then the game interface would reasonable be canon. The player views Minecraft as a game, and would thus reasonably also would have a UI. So there is no reason to think that the menus are non-diagletic to the dreaming player, and so the dreaming player would have access to cheats.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
As I said before, the WoG does not have to mean the poem has to be thrown out. After thinking of it - yeah, I don't think it should be disregarded. The metaphor is how similar life can be to games, and how people interact with it. That does not make the poem mean only that. Firstly, it outright states that real life is fiction just as the game is on no uncertain terms. It claims that we perceive our dreams differently, through screens or personally, but that they are still dreams.

However, I do not agree that long and short dreams are lesser or superior. Both are dreams. A dream in a dream does not make the second dream less or more real, both are simply in your brain. Just because we perceive worlds while going through our life does not mean that we are higher dimensional. Hell, the poem acknowledges that the "short dream" in this case is made of 1s and 0s, so that would be 10-C by IRL perspective. It's also the point of the poem, that our life is no less a dream than the fantasies and games we immerse ourself into.

The entity should merely be Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
The poem is literally a dev giving a player a sense of accomplishment. To extrapolate from that x amount of layers of transcendence is dumb. The whole "real life is just another dream, man" is still part of the metaphor. Like the guy outright states its just to give this impression of ascension, not be some great lore tidbit.

Someone, recount the tallies for/against using it, and please bold staff names on either side for me, please.
 
"It is a metaphor" is not a counter-argument. Yes, what is written in the poem is not literally true, because it is a work of fiction. Yes, a real person wrote it and he had a reason to do so, because that is how fiction works.

Sherlock Holmes came back from the dead because his book series was popular. That is the Doylist explaination why he came back. However, that doesn't hate that there was a Watsonian explaination for Sherlock not being dead, IE what happened in the internal logic of the story.

The poem is not an open-letter from the devs, it is two fictional characters pontifying about the nature of the player and reality. It is a piece of fiction.

And in particular, it is the ending narration of the game. We don't need to argue that the Star Wars Title Crawl is canon to the Star Wars movies do we?
 
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