Small TF2 Revision

[The_Smashor]

Also where is the destruction value for humans?

Our Calculations page.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

bump

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also the gas passer does a pretty big explosion in mvm. Perhaps it could be calced?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

ALSO. I JUST REALIZED ONE THING. Before, people couldn't scale to cow mangler as heat based attacks aren't scale to durability. But now we found out that it atomizes people, which doesn't require hit. Each merc can tank at least one rocket in game, so they should scale.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

ALSO. I JUST REALIZED ONE THING. Before, people couldn't scale to cow mangler as heat based attacks aren't scale to durability. But now we found out that it atomizes people, which doesn't require hit. Each merc can tank at least one rocket in game, so they should scale.

People didnt scale to Cow Mangler because Cow Mangler vaporizes/atomizes them, heat had nothing to do with it

 

[TheGatememer]

I think it would be pretty odd to say that the Cow Mangler is that far above every weapon, when its pretty much treated the same as any other weapon. Heck, its actually weaker than the stock Rocket Launcher in some ways.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's still not how most firearms work; they all have their own functions. And where does the "Atomization" statement come from? Also, it's agreed that scaling people from something that literally vaporizes or better yet atomizes them literally creates loopholes.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

The atomization statement comes from the Cow Manglers publicity blurb, which reads "A deadly device by any measure, the Cow Mangler will quantum disentangle Cows, Sheep, Humans and even Demomen!"

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

That's still not how most firearms work; they all have their own functions. And where does the "Atomization" statement come from? Also, it's agreed that scaling people from something that literally vaporizes or better yet atomizes them literally creates loopholes.

It atomizes them, but they still can tank at least one shot, and the cow mangler isn’t any stronger than stock and it wouldn’t make any sense for it to be.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It atomizes them, but they still can tank at least one shot, and the cow mangler isn’t any stronger than stock and it wouldn’t make any sense for it to be.

Except the other weapons dont vporize them or atomize them and at that point youre just using straight up game mechanics to argue your point.

'It dosnt kill them therefore they can tank it' isnt a viable argument forsomething that literally reduces a person to atoms

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Quantum disentangle" doesn't mean atomization; it just sounds like some kind of weird technobabble. Besides, "Quantum" statements without in depth details shouldn't be taken literally; especially since Quantum level matter manipulation sounds like a huge leap in logic.

Also, simply "They survive shots and it gives less damage than other weapons" isn't really the best grounds for scaling; especially in gameplay. It's for that reason that 95% of FPS weapons should be judged from their own calcs and nothing more; damage ratings have never really be reliable for scaling in any game verse. Especially if it goes from heavy moderate damage to an outright incineration right out of no where after a few shots. If anything, that just means there isn't much blunt force trauma in the attacks.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Except the other weapons dont vporize them or atomize them and at that point youre just using straight up game mechanics to argue your point.

'It dosnt kill them therefore they can tank it' isnt a viable argument forsomething that literally reduces a person to atoms

Except, it’s literally not any stronger than stock, and Scout of all people ranked three stock rockets.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

"Quantum disentangle" doesn't mean atomization; it just sounds like some kind of weird technobabble. Besides, "Quantum" statements without in depth details shouldn't be taken literally; especially since Quantum level matter manipulation sounds like a huge leap in logic.

Also, simply "They survive shots and it gives less damage than other weapons" isn't really the best grounds for scaling; especially in gameplay. It's for that reason that 95% of FPS weapons should be judged from their own calcs and nothing more; damage ratings have never really be reliable for scaling in any game verse. Especially if it goes from heavy moderate damage to an outright incineration right out of no where after a few shots. If anything, that just means there isn't much blunt force trauma in the attacks.

Quantum disentangle isn’t a real science term, but quantum entanglement means molecules being connected to each other. So quantum disentanglement is obviously separating them

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Except, it’s literally not any stronger than stock, and Scout of all people ranked three stock rockets.

Again youre literally comparing in-game damage ratios when one weapon qualitatively deals more damage than the other

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Quantums are one dimensional particles that even basic concepts of time and space are theoritically composed of; smaller than macro quantum particles such as Photons and Electrons, which are smaller than Sub-Atomic particles which are smaller than Atoms, which are smaller than molecules. Also molecularization < Atomization. Also, a simple statement about effecting atoms or molecules = atomization; raising or lowering heat effects atoms and molecules to some extent.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Quantums are one dimensional particles that even basic concepts of time and space are theoritically composed of; smaller than macro quantum particles such as Photons and Electrons, which are smaller than Sub-Atomic particles which are smaller than Atoms, which are smaller than molecules. Also molecularization < Atomization. Also, a simple statement about effecting atoms or molecules = atomization; raising or lowering heat effects atoms and molecules to some extent.

Well, again, it’s not just «some science-y words = atomization”. Quantum entanglement is molecules being close, for disentanglement it’s obvious it’s separating them. And I mean, this statement is more than enough as it’s not contradicted anywhere. And the kill animation is actually different. Most vaporization weapons in the game leave ashes, this one does not.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Leaving ashes isn't even vaporization; it's scorching or incineration. Vaporization is burning something till no liquids or solid parts remain; which ash is still solid. But either way, vaporization is already an overkill feat; you shouldn't be downscaled from something that literally overkills you. And atomization is even more overkill + something that would negate durability.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Leaving ashes isn't even vaporization; it's scorching or incineration. Vaporization is burning something till no liquids or solid parts remain; which ash is still solid. But either way, vaporization is already an overkill feat; you shouldn't be downscaled from something that literally overkills you. And atomization is even more overkill + something that would negate durability.

Again, you don’t just one shot people with those vaporization weapons. Plus, it really really makes no sense for weapon to be astronomically more powerful. Like why would soldier ever use any rocket launchers other than cow mangler then?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I already explained that reason; because an attack that is 100% heat based can have much higher joules but still be less deadly than a rocket or bullet. Durability isn't even a linear concept. But that logic, anyone who survived having a summer cold has 9-B durability by nature that their blood temperature rose from 37 degrees C to 38 degrees C is over 200 Kilojoules. Which is about the durability required to get hit by a speeding car; which actually shatters nearly every bone in their body.

Also, they come from just receiving blisters to suddenly becoming completely incinerated; that's pretty inconsistent and contradictory. If it doesn't oneshot people, it questions the incineration or atomization being legit in the first place. And then when it finally does vaporizes them or atomizes them; that's still a loophole.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I already explained that reason; because an attack that is 100% heat based can have much higher joules but still be less deadly than a rocket or bullet. Durability isn't even a linear concept. But that logic, anyone who survived having a summer cold has 9-B durability by nature that their blood temperature rose from 37 degrees C to 38 degrees C is over 200 Kilojoules. Which is about the durability required to get hit by a speeding car; which actually shatters nearly every bone in their body.

If it’s atomization it’s not necessarily heat based. The shots from cow mangler actually explode like any other rocket launcher in the game

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Saying, "It explodes" isn't evidence that it has blunt force trauma as high as it's thermal energy. Gasoline and other chemicals can explode and generate 9-B levels of blunt force trauma while releasing 8-B levels of thermal energy; like when a plane crashes. Also, atomization is still a chemical reaction and still not force; which I'm still questioning "Quantum Disentanglement" actually being a synonym for atomization unless you can show proof of that.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Saying, "It explodes" isn't evidence that it has blunt force trauma as high as it's thermal energy. Gasoline and other chemicals can explode and generate 9-B levels of blunt force trauma while releasing 8-B levels of thermal energy; like when a plane crashes. Also, atomization is still a chemical reaction and still not force; which I'm still questioning "Quantum Disentanglement" actually being a synonym for atomization unless you can show proof of that.

I already explained it twice. Quantum entanglement = objects being close.
Disentanglement obviously means separating those molecules

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Saying, "It explodes" isn't evidence that it has blunt force trauma as high as it's thermal energy. Gasoline and other chemicals can explode and generate 9-B levels of blunt force trauma while releasing 8-B levels of thermal energy; like when a plane crashes. Also, atomization is still a chemical reaction and still not force; which I'm still questioning "Quantum Disentanglement" actually being a synonym for atomization unless you can show proof of that.

Also it vaporizes people even with explosion itself

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Again, why would it make any sense for them to physically scale to something that vaporizes/atomizes/whateverizes them? Thats like saying a normal human is 9-B because they can survive being shot by guns.

 

[Abstractions]

We had this discussion last time and we agreed that trying to scale the mercs to weapons that vaporize them would be silly because if they could tank them they wouldn't be vaporized at all. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Again, why would it make any sense for them to physically scale to something that vaporizes/atomizes/whateverizes them? Thats like saying a normal human is 9-B because they can survive being shot by guns.

If a human is hit by a bullet he doesn’t tank it, he only survives if the bullet didn’t hit anything important. Cow mangler is an explosive projectile and Mercs can fight after being hit by it

 

[TheGatememer]

While this is somewhat off topic, don't we allow stuff like "vaporizing a human/reducing them to ash" feats for other verses? At any rate, I agree that the Cow Mangler is actually not atomization, since the poster for the Cow Mangler literally states it just disintegrates opponents.

 

[Schwxnz]

I still very much don't see why we would treat certain weapons as a couple of hundred times more powerful than others, when they deal about the same amount of damage. In fact, some weapons, which aren't all that powerful like say the CAPPER, are capable of vaporization.

If anything, handwaving certain weapons being superior to others capable of vaporizing humans as game mechanics is silly.

 

[The_Smashor]

Except the other weapons dont vporize them or atomize them and at that point youre just using straight up game mechanics to argue your point.

'It dosnt kill them therefore they can tank it' isnt a viable argument forsomething that literally reduces a person to atoms

I mean it's kind of like in Dragon Ball where the villains can survive a Kamehameha but when they're damaged enough it vaporizes them

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another thing is bullets have less AoE but more precision and penetration than a flamethrower or plasma rifle. Also, I'll use the durability of glass as an example; glass is more heat resistant than steel and it can regularly withstand 9-B levels of fire without melting, but the same types of glass are easily shattered by 10-C characters punching them. So there you have it, weapons can be hundreds if not thousands of times more potent energy wise, but still be less damaging.

Also, a lot of verses and especially first person shooter verses are actually getting downgraded. It's universally agreed that giving characters a 9-A or higher rating scaling them from "A Plasma rifle that vaporizes people after an X number of shots" is not a good practice. It's the text book definition of a loophole alongside "Chip damaging an enemy is still AP" or "Getting brutalized by still surviving is still durability". There are various cars and tanks that can withstand 9-A or 8-C levels of heat without melting, but a 9-B speed crash obliterates the same vehicles and they get one-shotted by 9-B fragmentation weapons. So comments such as "I don't see why weapons that give the same damage would have hundreds of times more energy yield". The problem is, lower leveled tiers admittedly create illusions since our system doesn't cover the difference between, heat, blunt force trauma, electricity, chemical energy, ect. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore common sense or scientific facts for durability. It's why urban level verses such as various FPS should be using more RL logic.

Shounen verses like Dragon Ball aren't good comparisons; and actually, Kamehameha waves need to be many times greater than the targets durability to actually vaporize them. And there's stuff like "Durability drops exponentially when distracted" that most FPS verses don't have. They don't Ki Control a rocket launcher. And their overpressure is as good as the thermal energy given the universal power sources are interchangeable in verses like those. TF2 doesn't have that.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Another thing is bullets have less AoE but more precision and penetration than a flamethrower or plasma rifle. Also, I'll use the durability of glass as an example; glass is more heat resistant than steel and it can regularly withstand 9-B levels of fire without melting, but the same types of glass are easily shattered by 10-C characters punching them. So there you have it, weapons can be hundreds if not thousands of times more potent energy wise, but still be less damaging.

Also, a lot of verses and especially first person shooter verses are actually getting downgraded. It's universally agreed that giving characters a 9-A or higher rating scaling them from "A Plasma rifle that vaporizes people after an X number of shots" is not a good practice. It's the text book definition of a loophole alongside "Chip damaging an enemy is still AP" or "Getting brutalized by still surviving is still durability". There are various cars and tanks that can withstand 9-A or 8-C levels of heat without melting, but a 9-B speed crash obliterates the same vehicles and they get one-shotted by 9-B fragmentation weapons. So comments such as "I don't see why weapons that give the same damage would have hundreds of times more energy yield". The problem is, lower leveled tiers admittedly create illusions since our system doesn't cover the difference between, heat, blunt force trauma, electricity, chemical energy, ect. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore common sense or scientific facts for durability. It's why urban level verses such as various FPS should be using more RL logic.

Shounen verses like Dragon Ball aren't good comparisons; and actually, Kamehameha waves need to be many times greater than the targets durability to actually vaporize them. And there's stuff like "Durability drops exponentially when distracted" that most FPS verses don't have. They don't Ki Control a rocket launcher. And their overpressure is as good as the thermal energy given the universal power sources are interchangeable in verses like those. TF2 doesn't have that.

Just cause its shonen doesn't mean it can't be compared

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Another thing is bullets have less AoE but more precision and penetration than a flamethrower or plasma rifle. Also, I'll use the durability of glass as an example; glass is more heat resistant than steel and it can regularly withstand 9-B levels of fire without melting, but the same types of glass are easily shattered by 10-C characters punching them. So there you have it, weapons can be hundreds if not thousands of times more potent energy wise, but still be less damaging.

Also, a lot of verses and especially first person shooter verses are actually getting downgraded. It's universally agreed that giving characters a 9-A or higher rating scaling them from "A Plasma rifle that vaporizes people after an X number of shots" is not a good practice. It's the text book definition of a loophole alongside "Chip damaging an enemy is still AP" or "Getting brutalized by still surviving is still durability". There are various cars and tanks that can withstand 9-A or 8-C levels of heat without melting, but a 9-B speed crash obliterates the same vehicles and they get one-shotted by 9-B fragmentation weapons. So comments such as "I don't see why weapons that give the same damage would have hundreds of times more energy yield". The problem is, lower leveled tiers admittedly create illusions since our system doesn't cover the difference between, heat, blunt force trauma, electricity, chemical energy, ect. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore common sense or scientific facts for durability. It's why urban level verses such as various FPS should be using more RL logic.

Shounen verses like Dragon Ball aren't good comparisons; and actually, Kamehameha waves need to be many times greater than the targets durability to actually vaporize them. And there's stuff like "Durability drops exponentially when distracted" that most FPS verses don't have. They don't Ki Control a rocket launcher. And their overpressure is as good as the thermal energy given the universal power sources are interchangeable in verses like those. TF2 doesn't have that.

Again, Ciw Mangler was shown to have physical force. Like it atomizes mercs even at a distance, meaning its explosion is doing the ap part, not heat

 

[Schwxnz]

Fairly certain that the DB example was referring to Cell being killed by Gohan who, if I recall correctly, was far from being distracted, holding back or anything like that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also explained details for why it shouldn't be compared; it's less about verses, but comparing firearms and plasma rifles to concentrated Ki blasts with advanced Ki control is where the taboo line gets drawn.

RTX argued against atomization later on, also, "IF it atomizes even from a distance" that's even less reason for Mercs to be scaled from it. I don't even think stuff like "It takes 3 or 4 punches to kill this guy, and the guy literally explodes after the final punch" to be a reason for the guy getting killed to scale from the puncher. Dargoo would be flipping if her heard proposals like that and was still here, and Antoniofer has always had distastes for practices like that. But vaporization/atomization scaling are even worse. Also, saying "It has some degree of force" isn't evidence that half or all of it is force. There is at least as much heat being produced for all strikes of force, not the other way around. A lot of plasma weapons are only 9-B levels of BFT but possess Tier 8 levels of heat.

In the Cell example, Cell was literally distracted by Vegeta and his guard was down when Gohan went all out; plus Gohan was actually at least twice as strong as the Solar Kamehameha naturally when he was going all out.

At best, only scale characters from weapons that moderately damage them and are very much force.

 

[Schwxnz]

"Staff member X and Staff member Y would not be in favor of this method!"

I don't really see the need for this. Simply explaining your issues with the proposal and leaving it at that would be enough.

RTX was arguing against atomization, yes, but only because someone else previously used the wrong quote to justify it. The correct one comes from the Manmelter - "Ideal for atomizing moon soldiers or neighborhood dogs at your earliest convenience!"

Okay, seems like I got some of the specifics regarding the Cell example wrong.

I'm still not convinced by the points above, and believe that rating certain weapons that much higher than others is nonsense, but whatever. I can tell that this would just go back and forth for ages and I'm not doing this again.

If 9-A with optional equipment gets implemented, just don't forget to also add their heat resistance

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I also explained details for why it shouldn't be compared; it's less about verses, but comparing firearms and plasma rifles to concentrated Ki blasts with advanced Ki control is where the taboo line gets drawn.

RTX argued against atomization later on, also, "IF it atomizes even from a distance" that's even less reason for Mercs to be scaled from it. I don't even think stuff like "It takes 3 or 4 punches to kill this guy, and the guy literally explodes after the final punch" to be a reason for the guy getting killed to scale from the puncher. Dargoo would be flipping if her heard proposals like that and was still here, and Antoniofer has always had distastes for practices like that. But vaporization/atomization scaling are even worse. Also, saying "It has some degree of force" isn't evidence that half or all of it is force. There is at least as much heat being produced for all strikes of force, not the other way around. A lot of plasma weapons are only 9-B levels of BFT but possess Tier 8 levels of heat.

In the Cell example, Cell was literally distracted by Vegeta and his guard was down when Gohan went all out; plus Gohan was actually at least twice as strong as the Solar Kamehameha naturally when he was going all out.

At best, only scale characters from weapons that moderately damage them and are very much force.

It atomizes but doesn’t one shot at distances

 

[TheGatememer]

it doesn't one shot even at point-blank range

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

"Staff member X and Staff member Y would not be in favor of this method!"

I don't really see the need for this. Simply explaining your issues with the proposal and leaving it at that would be enough.

RTX was arguing against atomization, yes, but only because someone else previously used the wrong quote to justify it. The correct one comes from the Manmelter - "Ideal for atomizing moon soldiers or neighborhood dogs at your earliest convenience!"

Okay, seems like I got some of the specifics regarding the Cell example wrong.

I'm still not convinced by the points above, and believe that rating certain weapons that much higher than others is nonsense, but whatever. I can tell that this would just go back and forth for ages and I'm not doing this again.

If 9-A with optional equipment gets implemented, just don't forget to also add their heat resistance

Cow mangler atomization is more impressive as it can do so with cows

 

[TheGatememer]

the cow mangler doesn't atomize, only disintegrates. The Manmelter does though

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

the cow mangler doesn't atomize, only disintegrates.

I explained it several times already. Quantum entanglement = molecules being connected. Quantum disentanglement isn’t a real term but obviously means separating molecules