Skill Tier List #1: Video Games vs Comics

[Phoenks]

You didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway. Batman isn't the #1 from DC, Cass, Shiva and Richard Dragon are objectively better than him, and Karate Kid outskills all 4 due to bullshit feats. Compared to Marvel, he doesn't make the top 3 (imo), and this isn't because Batman is bad, it's because the Marvel top 3 is cracked.

As for the feats, that one he showed is like the peak of Batman's precog, but precog is just an area for skill. I'll only write a bible for Batman when we actually try to rank all of the characters.

Out of curiosity, how would you rank the comic characters in skill? Combining both Marvel and DC.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Out of curiosity, how would you rank the comic characters in skill? Combining both Marvel and DC.

1. Karate Kid
2. Shang-Chi
3. Iron Fist
4. Cass/Daredevil/Elektra
5. Shiva/Richard Dragon
6. Batman

Rest.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

You didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway. Batman isn't the #1 from DC, Cass, Shiva and Richard Dragon are objectively better than him, and Karate Kid outskills all 4 due to bullshit feats. Compared to Marvel, he doesn't make the top 3 (imo), and this isn't because Batman is bad, it's because the Marvel top 3 is cracked.

As for the feats, that one he showed is like the peak of Batman's precog, but precog is just an area for skill. I'll only write a bible for Batman when we actually try to rank all of the characters.

Shiva is a huge Jobber honestly
She generally only appears for somebody to beat her
Shiva is narratively better most of the time but featwise Bruce ***** on her

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

1. Karate Kid
2. Shang-Chi
3. Iron Fist
4. Cass/Daredevil/Elektra
5. Shiva/Richard Dragon
6. Batman

Rest.

Also I doubt I'd have Daredevil and Elektra above Richard Dragon and Shiva
Richard should be > Cass

 

[M3X_2.0]

Also I doubt I'd have Daredevil and Elektra above Richard Dragon and Shiva

Senses give him an edge over them imo, Elektra is built different.

Shiva is a huge Jobber honestly
She generally only appears for somebody to beat her
Shiva is narratively better most of the time but featwise Bruce ***** on her

Narratively she's way better than Batman, Batman even says he had never won against her. So there's that. Can't ignore it. Featwise though Batman stomps her.

 

[ZXareo]

So I stand by my original stance of Bayonetta's "skill" list being mostly hax.

Did you see my reply to the thread? To my knowledge, little to none of that involves hax.

 

[Epiccheev]

Btw, will Batman be composed or will a specific version be used for this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Did you see my reply to the thread? To my knowledge, little to none of that involves hax.

Oh yeah those are all okay (minus the rain thing, I spoke about my issues with that), I just think it's not as impressive as what Marisa can do. The only things I've seen that would put Bayo that high do involve hax to some extent.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Btw, will Batman be composed or will a specific version be used for this?

Post Crisis is the one being used.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I mean, Armor did stop me from using some of Marisa's more busted shit earlier, so afaik this IS using the other thread's ruleset.

Also, void dodging isn't comparable to rain dodging at all; There's still space between raindrops, while a void is... a void. It's like dodging water while being underwater.
i should probably dig for stuff like that in touhou though

IKR? It's so unbelievably bs that I love it, hell the fact that Dante was dancing and laughing while doing it makes it 100% better and the cherry on top is that neither he nor the Void (Mundus) had any idea of what was going on.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Senses aren't really a factor though, this is skill. At this point we can say Batman has better skill because he can nuke a plane.

Senses give him an edge over them imo, Elektra is built different.

Narratively she's way better than Batman, Batman even says he had never won against her. So there's that. Can't ignore it. Featwise though Batman stomps her.

Which is blatantly not true, because he was shown beating her. In the same scan, Bruce also said that she never lost a fight at all, which is lost since she has lost to Richard before

 

[M3X_2.0]

Senses aren't really a factor though, this is skill. At this point we can say Batman has better skill because he can nuke a plane.

Senses are a factor when that's his method to fight and "see". There's no Daredevil if there's no senses.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Without senses it's like Batman fighting with no senses at all, no touch, vision, hearing, nothing. He's null, it's like being on a void. The senses allow him to "see", allow him to predict their movement, to tackle every single pressure point they have etc. The senses allow him to fight. Batman using a nuke is such an awful example that I decided to ignore.

 

[Chariot190]

Karate Kid, not Every Martial Arts Kid.

Sounds kinda fodder ngl

 

[Epiccheev]

Most notable skill gods in the wiki need ridiculous enhanced senses to perform their impossible skill feats in a way that makes (at least some) sense.
Granted, just having the enhanced senses by itself probably shouldn't count as a skill feat. (like, i don't think anyone considers an eagle more skilled than a martial artist just because it has better vision.)

 

[Chariot190]

i don't think anyone considers an eagle more skilled than a martial artist just because it has better vision

Never seen a martial artist beat an eagle in a fight just saying

 

[Smashtwig]

Most notable skill gods in the wiki need ridiculous enhanced senses to perform their impossible skill feats in a way that makes (at least some) sense.
Granted, just having the enhanced senses by itself probably shouldn't count as a skill feat. (like, i don't think anyone considers an eagle more skilled than a martial artist just because it has better vision.)

What about things that look like or are portrayed as enhanced senses but in reality it’s just experience visualized as enhanced senses to us?

 

[Epiccheev]

Never seen a martial artist beat an eagle in a fight just saying

True, freedom chicken are very op

 

[First_Witch]

(like, i don't think anyone considers an eagle more skilled than a martial artist just because it has better vision.)

A human reaching vision levels of a eagle via training their eyesight looking at you

 

[LaserPrecision]

That’s really not how it works tbh, when you learn to add new martial arts into your current style, that’s just your style evolving and improving, it’s not its seperate thing. Zero does the same here, he’s also constant evolving his style, learning new skills that are implemented into his combat in every game with the Learning System

It’s the Hadoken one lol. Ryu and Ken, Akuma- heck Magma Dragoon is straight up just Akuma actually. I’ll have to look around but apparently Street Fighter is an actual thing in Mega Man and it’s not just some ”haha funny refefence” thing.

But we don't know to what extent he can implement them into his fighting style because he doesn't face off against people who are masters in the weapon he just picked up. Whereas with Sonic, he picked up a sword and became the best at using it. So we know to what extent he can work sword fighting into his own "mold". Zero just vaguely works it into his fighting style.

As long as it's not from Marvel vs Capcom or smth it's fine. Though I admittedly don't remember Street Fighters in Mega Man.

The 4000 years stuff was just a prelude to the Emerl stuff. And okay I guess? The knights having years of experience shouldn’t be anything much better than Magma Dragoon or Torch Man or Fefnir or X or the ancient AF Stardroids or pretty much every Maverick Hunter ever who’ve dedicated their entire lives to running hands. Zero also tags people faster than him too like Leviathan in the water, Harpuia, etc. Also he’d upscale over Mega Man who fights speed blitzer types like Ra Thor and Quick Man and Flash Man with just a Buster

Ah, alright then. I would've saved the 4000 year thing for later, but that's just me. I'm not trying to say the Knights > the Mega Man character's who similarly dedicated their lives to fighting. It's just meant to show that Sonic can surpass that level of skill by simply picking up a sword for the first time in less than a day. To put it in perspective, imagine Sonic picking up the Z-Saber, then immediately becomes better at using it than Zero is. Also, what's with calling Quick Man a speed blitzer? The only time he's ever depicted as a true speedster who blitzes people is in non-canon media like the Hitoshi manga or Archie comics. In the game, he's never depicted as a character who can blitz Mega Man. Just a dude that can run fast. And you can easily beat him in-game. I think he's one of the easiest fights IN the game. Unless there's a statement in the manual or something that he moves so fast that Mega Man can't even react, I wouldn't go around stating Mega Man's beating up someone who can blitz him. Flash Man is similar to Shadow, but with less hax options. Stops time for a few seconds and shoots at you. Impressive, but not as impressive as beating someone like Shadow. I don't remember the Ra Thor fight though, so I won't comment on that. Sonic similarly fights people faster underwater, like a lot (Too many water stages in Sonic).

It’s not that Weil spent all of those years thinking about how to beat Zero moreso studying his every atom (exaggeration) of his original body, when I say Weil glazed over Original Body Zero we’re talking like he was in love my man he was swinging the other direction, completely obsessed. He used his DNA (yes it’s called DNA) to make the Mother/Dark Elf and everything- so bro definitely knows how Zero is, let alone a copy of his bod. Whereas the Egg Dragoon has spent years and still probably hasn’t completed its analysis on Sonic, there is straight up no more room for improvement in studying Zero and how he fights.

I feel like being Sonic’s equal plus some techniques isn’t exactly as good as being equal to Zero- except all of your stats are so juiced up that all of Zero’s comparable rivals (like Fefnir, Leviathan, and Harupia, all of which modeled after Actual X’s experiences / skill) get instant AP Stomped on the first dang form, not to mention 2nd (Fusion, actually using the full might of the Dark Elf while the first form was like Frieza saying he’s only using 1% or some crap idk) and 3rd Forms (Original Body Zero, who is so powerful on his own that even without the Dark Elf he’s definitely giving Aile’s ZX Form (X and Zero’s combined might and skill combined) a tough fight). Considering that Metal doesn’t use these techniques in really all that OP ways, and Sonic being equal in stats so there’s no trouble hurting metal, I really think that Omega is just the better difference here. That AP difference is really something. And I don’t think there’s a Sonic feat where he is blatantly stomped and still comes out on top (meanwhile this if the first out of at least 2 where this has happened for the Mega Man series- See X Challenge Below)

Can you send a scan regarding how extensive his research is? Because just saying the man is a creaming fiend for Zero and was studying his body doesn't exactly give me an idea of how it'd let him counter Zero. In Egg Dragoon's case it's made blatantly obvious. He spent years studying every one of Sonic's move patterns and implemented it into the Egg Dragoon to hard counter Sonic, yet despite it knowing all of Sonic's moves still lost.

I don't even think Omega HAS that big of an ap advantage. Zero literally survives being hit by him several times (In gameplay and once in the cutscene right after). And his rivals harm Omega in the cutscene and knock him back on his knees again after recovering. He also survived Omega exploding, albeit was incapacitated. So it's not like he can one-shot them with a flick of his wrist or anything. He's just > Zero. Put Zero in the same scenario. Pit him against a replica of Zero Eggman created that is identical to him with the added bonus of flight, speed amps, natural energy projection, etc. Not an easy fight at all.
Sonic has several fights against people who can stomp him. He was able to force Silver to use dirty tactics since he couldn't tag Sonic. With Silver having the power to kill Sonic with a PK attack (Though was interrupted by Elise being kidnapped and Amy), fought Infinite who stomped him during his introduction of the game. Sonic was defeated in one-shot in the rematch after Sonic was caught off guard, but up until that point he was beating Infinite. Then in the second rematch, he won.

Zero didn’t even take a day, he just- takes the weapon (like the chain rod for example, whips being the hardest of weapons to master let’s be real- actually bad example because the level system exists that also nerfed his saber, so let’s go with V Hanger or smth), and just uses it as properly as his other weapons and learns new skills for it just as fast as he does with his Z-Saber. Same with his Z-Knuckle weapons, except that it’s not just the same as his other weapons other than visually. These are body parts not proper weapons, there’s no trigger, there’s no sights, they weren’t even designed for a humanoid to use as a weapon with weight distribution messed up all over the place, the fact that Zero can use it proficiently at all is an absurd feat in of itself let alone make use of it as well as his other weapons.

He didn't take a day, but we don't get any feats outside of gameplay on how proficient he is at using said weapons (I don't think whips are the hardest weapons to use if you mean IRL. I would think multi-purpose or impractical weapons probably would be). With Sonic, we do get to know how proficient he becomes with it. Not gonna discredit this being impressive though since it still is.

Okay uh… He can punch and throw objects. Epic. He hasn’t picked up as many weapons as Zero does like Glaives, Spears, Tonfas, Knuckles, Whips, Daggers, Shields ETC, so he isn’t as diverse, though you can argue that to be a good thing (smth smth practice one kick 1000 times or smth Bruce Lee the art of war), but I personally think being diverse in your provfincency in multiple weapons on the same level as your preferred weapon is better and just grinding on one because eventually there's gonna be a cap in biomechanical ways to apply your skill

He doesn't usually need to pick up weapons. For range, he develops his own ranged techniques, like wind projectiles. For a blade, he can use his quills or use the insta shield, which is a bladed barrier he can summon around him by manipulating wind around him with speed to bypass shields, etc.
But the times he does pick up weapons, he becomes one of the most proficient users. I'd say you could scale him to Shadow who uses a metric shit ton of weapons in Shadow The Hedgehog. His skill in picking up on things goes beyond weapons. He could become one of the best extreme gear racers and anti-gravity users seconds after trying them out.

It was more of a “character” thing, when Zero compares Copy X to the real deal, he’s mostly referring to how Copy X doesn’t have the same righteous naive heart X has, why he feels more “strength” out of X, the hero’s attacks than Copy’s. Again, Copy X has the same specifications as the real deal, strength, skill, all of it. If Zero fought the real X, the result would be the same, just that he wouldn’t call him weak.

I'm... not sure I fully believe that, but I haven't played all the games, so I really have no choice but to roll with it for now. Pun intended.

The scan says ALL the data is about melee combat from that specific time, and nothing in between those years, that’s all I gonna base this whole thing off of. Even the data that broke the computer was that specific data, it just meant that it was a lot of information on skill of that era

In the scan linked in the thread yeah. You can collect Gerald's diaries entries throughout the game where he talks about his experiments on Emerl. He's noted to have copied data on various types of weapons.

I mean, alright sure, but how can you prove the ancient tech from where Emerl is from is = to the Ancients from Frontiers? Also, computers crashing isn’t a big deal as you think, there just happens to be that much quantity of data. Even unintelligible files like a txt just going AAAAAAAAAAAAAA will still take up space (along with data being recorded for every infinitesimal moment of a lifespan), and most of Emerl’s lifespan has nothing of note, I can’t really prove a negative, all I do know is that he was awakened in the events of the game, and those 4000 years can really just be… empty, all the statement got is what he has 4000 years ago, not everything inbetween. All we get is that all of the combat data he has will be used which refers to the ones from that age

even so, Stardroids being ancient too and Ra Moon being a 20,000 year old super computer should compete if not surpass just fine.

I never said the two were the same? The people who created Emerl and the Ancients in Frontiers are two explicitly different people. Emerl only records data while he's active/awake from what I recall. I don't recall it being noted he can record data even when inactive. Emerl's purpose is to record weapon and combat data. Not irrelevant nonsense. What makes it impressive is that Emerl has so much recorded combat data that Tails' super computer literally offed itself.

Okay, but uh, Mega Man nor Zero really use their “lots of versatility”- they’ll use it if they can but note that Mega Man can fight any RM at any order he likes, not one of them is definitively canon, but much like Fate/stay, they are all possibilities that can happen and be used as feats, so Mega Man really can Buster Only every Robot Master. Same applies to Zero who upscales and uses his Saber instead (Gun > Sword) to fight

But fine, Zero does legit fight in those One Shot conditions multiple times like Heatnix and his minibosses, Lumine, and X fights Awakened Zero’s One Shot Genmu Zero attack which he spams after a certain point.

Fair.

If you don't mind, could you link 1 or 2 of these one-shots fights? That said, Sonic's fought in one-shot conditions before. In the final level of Sonic 1, and Sonic 2. His very first games. Then there's the instances in Modern games I listed off as well.

If you rely on a power up like Super Sonic, for the sake of this thread, he “lost” because this is a thing to prove his skill. Meanwhile, Zero didn’t lose at all, he just collapsed by the time he beat all of the enemies (because he was fighting for a year straight). He also didn’t lose against X. In fact he arguably won as Sigma tried to sneak them after their fight (a stalemate), Zero was the first to get up and protect X

Not really? Knowing when to rely/fall back on your powers is a skill and of itself. Eggman had Sonic in his grip, and had the LS strength advantage. No amount of "skill" could get him out of that position. Zero would do the same if he was caught in someone's grip with superior LS.

No? I haven't played the X games, but I'm aware you're required to beat him several times. The first battle X brings Zero to his knees and knocks sense into him. In the battle where Zero seemed to be amped with that aura, he collapsed to the floor first. Him getting back up first doesn't mean much considering he fainted first, so of course he'd recover faster than X who fainted some time after. The fact X had Zero plastered to the floor on his face makes it seem quite obvious that X won in a close/exhausting battle. X even seemed to believe he would've pulled a decisive win had Zero not used "Soul Body". So calling it a stalemate or Zero's win seems cheap. If I got my ass absolutely handed to me, and I was on the floor comatose, and they were barely standing, but eventually passed out from exhaustion, and I got up first, I would NOT consider that a W for me at all.

Alright, half the population of the globe in the X Series were Reploids, most of them going Maverick, the Maverick Hunters would be handling similar numbers if we’re going with that argument as much as I hate saying that.

Half the population vs up to 90% of the population and 6 planets full of robots + space ships that flood the background of space.

I have to go right now, so I would appreciate if you could hold off a response until I come back in a couple hours to reply to the rest so I don't have to respond to 1 and a half posts instead? Please? I can't force you, but it'd be much appreciated.

 

[Epiccheev]

A human reaching vision levels of a eagle via training their eyesight looking at you

Me when i eat 3 carrots a day. (They are good for your eyes.)

 

[Chariot190]

Question for the sonic nerds.

Black Knight expies, they're sword masters, and Sonic beat them in 1 day.

But what does "sword master" entail in this context? What feats do they got? Besides being the best in all the land type statements (unless the fodder have good feats?) given being the best out of featless fodder don't mean much.

 

[Shmooply]

Never seen a martial artist beat an eagle in a fight just saying

 

[azontr]

"I ain't reading allat": the thread

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"I ain't reading allat": the thread

The TL;DR is that Marisa sweeps

 

[Bobsican]

The TL;DR is that Marisa sweeps

Or so you think

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Or so you think

Ratio.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Granted, just having the enhanced senses by itself probably shouldn't count as a skill feat

Indeed it does not. The senses just compensate for his lack of vision, in Daredevil’s case his senses are needed for his character as whole to function. His hearing can be used for predict movements based on muscle sounds, blood flow. Radar Sense will literally work as a pseudo future sight, etc.

This isn’t skill, it’s what he does with this information that is skill.

Unless we disqualify Batman because of giga ultra brain that was confirmed a lot of times to not be a regular brain thus it isn’t skill so everything he does isn’t valid anymore. (?)

 

[Phoenks]

Tl;dr: Most of Marisa's feats are non-quantifiable and/or related to magic and ability skill rather than martial arts and raw combative skill which seems unfair to composite together on a thread like this.

 

[Smashtwig]

Aight so I’ll be back on this since now ur asking for scans, and I’m also being jumped on the Gunvolt side of things and I got school to prepare for and I’m also making a video game so like yeah. I’ll still manage to grab some of ur points. I’ll probably edit things like scans in later so I don’t necro this conversation, so I’ll just @ u or smth when I’m done. In case you don’t read the full thing first before u begin typing I’ll copy paste the last message for u to see

Don’t worry you take ur time, this post is likely incomplete anyways (I’ll try and tell the boys to not jump u), and I need a break too so when you see this, just straight up don’t reply for awhile because I need the time too, no one‘s gonna call u a fraud or a coward lol, @ me (well, after I @ u when I’m finished editing this thing)

But we don't know to what extent he can implement them into his fighting style because he doesn't face off against people who are masters in the weapon he just picked up. Whereas with Sonic, he picked up a sword and became the best at using it. So we know to what extent he can work sword fighting into his own "mold". Zero just vaguely works it into his fighting style.

Actually we do in the Zero games, you can use any combination of weapons you’d like in those. Zero picks up new weapons (say the Triple Rod and Shield Boomerang- ignoring the shitty level up game mechanic in which that case just use one of the Zero 3 weapons or the X Weapons), and he fights just as efficiently as when he does with his Z-Saber, contending with Deathtanz Mantisk (one of the first available bosses after you acquire new weapons), a master scythe user that can take on 20 bots as skilled as Magma Dragoon (I smell BS in that one so I’ll go check it) or any of the Guardians that have been using the same weapons for who knows how long that scale to the original X.

TL;DR we kind of do, he uses them as well as he uses his Saber (he just prefers his saber because that’s his choice), and we know his skill with the Saber to enough to deal with the likes of X, Sigma, Dragoon, upscaling from all the previous Robot Masters, the Guardians, Omega, etc.

As long as it's not from Marvel vs Capcom or smth it's fine. Though I admittedly don't remember Street Fighters in Mega Man.

same I’m not gonna lie, I’ll ask the Mega Man people (most of the stuff I know comes from then and my experiences with the series is mostly related to the games)

Ah, alright then. I would've saved the 4000 year thing for later, but that's just me. I'm not trying to say the Knights > the Mega Man character's who similarly dedicated their lives to fighting. It's just meant to show that Sonic can surpass that level of skill by simply picking up a sword for the first time in less than a day. To put it in perspective, imagine Sonic picking up the Z-Saber, then immediately becomes better at using it than Zero is.

Yeah I understand I’m not saying RM > to Knights either (though I will sneak into the fact that they’re not all knights and have a pretty chunky variety, and also encyclopedic Blade Man still exists which is smth… I guess)

Same here with Zero- literally rips out a robot’s body part and uses it better than the robot

imagine Zero takes Sonic’s shoes and starts spin dashing actually he can already I forgot

Also, what's with calling Quick Man a speed blitzer? The only time he's ever depicted as a true speedster who blitzes people is in non-canon media like the Hitoshi manga or Archie comics. In the game, he's never depicted as a character who can blitz Mega Man. Just a dude that can run fast. And you can easily beat him in-game. I think he's one of the easiest fights IN the game. Unless there's a statement in the manual or something that he moves so fast that Mega Man can't even react, I wouldn't go around stating Mega Man's beating up someone who can blitz him. Flash Man is similar to Shadow, but with less hax options. Stops time for a few seconds and shoots at you. Impressive, but not as impressive as beating someone like Shadow. I don't remember the Ra Thor fight though, so I won't comment on that. Sonic similarly fights people faster underwater, like a lot (Too many water stages in Sonic).

I’ll go check the boys but I remember getting my ass beat by Quick Man lol skill issue, point is he‘s quick man, he should at least be faster than Mega Man’s slow ass DAMN HE’S SLOW I HATE CLASSIC MEGA MAN DAMN

for the underwater, yeah aight they both got it. Zero’s got Leviathan

Can you send a scan regarding how extensive his research is? Because just saying the man is a creaming fiend for Zero and was studying his body doesn't exactly give me an idea of how it'd let him counter Zero. In Egg Dragoon's case it's made blatantly obvious. He spent years studying every one of Sonic's move patterns and implemented it into the Egg Dragoon to hard counter Sonic, yet despite it knowing all of Sonic's moves still lost.

Sure I’ll look into it with the boys.

I don't even think Omega HAS that big of an ap advantage. Zero literally survives being hit by him several times (In gameplay and once in the cutscene right after). And his rivals harm Omega in the cutscene and knock him back on his knees again after recovering. He also survived Omega exploding, albeit was incapacitated. So it's not like he can one-shot them with a flick of his wrist or anything. He's just > Zero. Put Zero in the same scenario. Pit him against a replica of Zero Eggman created that is identical to him with the added bonus of flight, speed amps, natural energy projection, etc. Not an easy fight at all.

Zero already beat Omega by the time the Guardians jump him, the Dark Elf has only started to heal the guy, and Zero just had to finish him off.

Looking at the Harpuia vs Omega scene, yeah Omega just beam spammed Harpuia but Harpuia still got stomped, that’s the point of the cutscene, same with the Leviathan and Fefnir vs no Elf Omega. All three Guardians are people Zero is compared to and X specifically highlights that it’s his combat skill that is impressive. Add two extra forms and a Dark Elf it really is a sizable advantage. And I should also mention that AP Stomps aren’t completely in winnable, a Gun can destroy a wall if you shoot it like 30 times. Mega Man games are inherently about taking pot shots and whittling down HP slowly even with your strongest charge attacks.

Sonic has several fights against people who can stomp him. He was able to force Silver to use dirty tactics since he couldn't tag Sonic. With Silver having the power to kill Sonic with a PK attack (Though was interrupted by Elise being kidnapped and Amy), fought Infinite who stomped him during his introduction of the game. Sonic was defeated in one-shot in the rematch after Sonic was caught off guard, but up until that point he was beating Infinite. Then in the second rematch, he won.

For Silver, isn’t that just Sonic being fast? Like I know you guys said that enemies are comparable but lose out in travel speed but like, combat speed scales from travel speed not the other way around

For the Infinite situation didn’t Sonic explicitly say that he gets stronger every second as an explaination and it was accepted on this wiki? And for the second rematch did he not have a friendship boost and a comparable OC ally?

He didn't take a day, but we don't get any feats outside of gameplay on how proficient he is at using said weapons (I don't think whips are the hardest weapons to use if you mean IRL. I would think multi-purpose or impractical weapons probably would be). With Sonic, we do get to know how proficient he becomes with it. Not gonna discredit this being impressive though since it still is.

I guess u can look at the first reply lol

He doesn't usually need to pick up weapons. For range, he develops his own ranged techniques, like wind projectiles. For a blade, he can use his quills or use the insta shield, which is a bladed barrier he can summon around him by manipulating wind around him with speed to bypass shields, etc.
But the times he does pick up weapons, he becomes one of the most proficient users. I'd say you could scale him to Shadow who uses a metric shit ton of weapons in Shadow The Hedgehog. His skill in picking up on things goes beyond weapons. He could become one of the best extreme gear racers and anti-gravity users seconds after trying them out.

Well I don’t need to pick up a sword either when I got a glock on me lol. Zero goes out of his way to use these new weapons not because he needs them but because he wants to, you can go through every game with default equipment if you want (hence Buster Only challenges), and Zero specifically says in X5 before getting the Black Zero upgrades “I don’t need any upgrades…” and smth about “I can fight with my own power” or smth like that when he sees the Light capsules- and he takes the Black Zero upgrade anyways. The fact that he‘s going out of his way to just pick up new weapons and skills makes him that more diverse then just sticking with what he has.

Shadow had GUN (still a funny name) training did he not?

I'm... not sure I fully believe that, but I haven't played all the games, so I really have no choice but to roll with it for now. Pun intended.

I fully get that, you can definitely interpret it multiple ways so if that’s not enough for you, we can just have Zero outskilling the Guardians or Omega Zero as a replacement for the same quality of experience

In the scan linked in the thread yeah. You can collect Gerald's diaries entries throughout the game where he talks about his experiments on Emerl. He's noted to have copied data on various types of weapons.

I never said the two were the same? The people who created Emerl and the Ancients in Frontiers are two explicitly different people. Emerl only records data while he's active/awake from what I recall. I don't recall it being noted he can record data even when inactive. Emerl's purpose is to record weapon and combat data. Not irrelevant nonsense. What makes it impressive is that Emerl has so much recorded combat data that Tails' super computer literally offed itself.

Oh I know you didn’t imply that, I’m just trying to figure out a way for you to link the two together and support ur 4000 year argument, which I still am unable to buy at the current moment because all the scan has is things on that specific era (which is still a lot so I’m not saying Emerl is dumb) and not everything between that era and now to justify a 4000 year old experienced machine.

If you don't mind, could you link 1 or 2 of these one-shots fights? That said, Sonic's fought in one-shot conditions before. In the final level of Sonic 1, and Sonic 2. His very first games. Then there's the instances in Modern games I listed off as well.

Yeah sure I probably can do that with some help from my bois the next time we meet (INSERT SCANS HERE LATER EEE)- I’m gonna say the following that doesn’t mean anything just to remind me where to go for em: Zero 1 Train Boss, Lumine, Pegasus, Heatnix, Zero 1 Leviathan, Zero 1 Copy X, Tech Kraken, Gate Stages, Metal Shark Player, SNES Sigma Stages, Storm Eagle, X1 and 5 Wall Boss, Gate

Not really? Knowing when to rely/fall back on your powers is a skill and of itself. Eggman had Sonic in his grip, and had the LS strength advantage. No amount of "skill" could get him out of that position. Zero would do the same if he was caught in someone's grip with superior LS.

Exactly, at that point Sonic was too late, someone skilled enough would be able to just not get caught in the first place…? Zero in Sonic’s position, being caught, yeah, he’d do the same, but my point is that (and also technically there are feats of peopl using technique to deal with LS like jujutsu but that’s not applicable here lol)

of course I‘m not saying not using ur power ups is a dumb thing, however knowing when to apply something also implies you’d be aware of the risk and only use it when NEEDED. For example Goku has to pick when he has to use the Kaio-Ken wisely because the risks involved, and would rather not use it. Sonic is similar in that he knows that the Emeralds will be out of his possession if he uses Super Form and he won’t have that trick up his sleeve, he’s smart enough to not use it immediately and go in with Base first. Technically a skilled enough person would be able to… not rely on it and prevent any situation that would lead to them needing the extra boost.

No? I haven't played the X games, but I'm aware you're required to beat him several times. The first battle X brings Zero to his knees and knocks sense into him. In the battle where Zero seemed to be amped with that aura, he collapsed to the floor first. Him getting back up first doesn't mean much considering he fainted first, so of course he'd recover faster than X who fainted some time after. The fact X had Zero plastered to the floor on his face makes it seem quite obvious that X won in a close/exhausting battle. X even seemed to believe he would've pulled a decisive win had Zero not used "Soul Body". So calling it a stalemate or Zero's win seems cheap. If I got my ass absolutely handed to me, and I was on the floor comatose, and they were barely standing, but eventually passed out from exhaustion, and I got up first, I would NOT consider that a W for me at all.

OH. IM STUPID.

I THOUGHT YOU JUST MEANT X5 LMAO

Your statement is true in X2, Zero blatantly lost, but I definitely don’t see any aura in the X2 fight but I’m also like blind lol. However, note that the guy was controlled by Sigma- doesn’t matter too much but it’s there. More importantly, I honestly feel like when it comes to skill, the past doesn’t matter. What matters is the present, if they improved since last time. If Metal Sonic (hypothetically because we know he won’t and he’s a FRAUD) bested Sonic in a match of skill, Metal Sonic is overall more skilled than Sonic at that time no matter how many times Sonic beat him in the past, because we measure our characters at their best (assuming more recent = better in most cases). So Zero losing in X2 isn’t really anything indicative of what he can do in the Zero series

in X5, for the Soul Body stuff, that’s partially true if you pick X’s Route for the fight, and I don’t recall either route being canonically correct, if you pick Zero, it’s X that uses Soul Body instead. And also I hardly call it “cheap” to use that, it’s in their arsenal, it’s fair game. In both endings, Zero’s the guy who gets up first anyways.

My fault tho for the misunderstanding

Half the population vs up to 90% of the population and 6 planets full of robots + space ships that flood the background of space.

Kind or reminds me of Halo: Reach’s covenant invasion which isn’t as big in terms of numbers, gonna have to ask for a visual on what you mean by 6 planets FULL or robots and the scale of space ships vs

at this point I think this is more of a stamina thing at these big of scales which wouldn’t be relevant to this conversation, there’s only so many guys that can fit to surround you at once after all.

I have to go right now, so I would appreciate if you could hold off a response until I come back in a couple hours to reply to the rest so I don't have to respond to 1 and a half posts instead? Please? I can't force you, but it'd be much appreciated.

Don’t worry you take ur time, this post is likely incomplete anyways (I’ll try and tell the boys to not jump u), and I need a break too so when you see this, just straight up don’t reply for awhile because I need the time too, no one‘s gonna call u a fraud or a coward lol, @ me (well, after I @ u when I’m finished editing this thing)


Again I am willing to concede to avoid war even though I firmly believe my stance (especially now that there seems to be no more counters to the Zero Pocket Sand Blind Paralyze Gaslit Malfunctioning Weaponless Army Wiping Boredom argument). It’s just not worth fighting for lol

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Tl;dr: Most of Marisa's feats are non-quantifiable and/or related to magic and ability skill rather than martial arts and raw combative skill which seems unfair to composite together on a thread like this.

Ignoring the fact that that isn't even true (magic stuff takes up a single paragraph you baka), nobody ever said we were only allowing martial skill

 

[M3X_2.0]

nobody ever said we were only allowing martial skill

Iron Fist soloing everyone with Chi

 

[Smashtwig]

I also have a question about enhanced sensing and skill

What if you like, train your senses to like, be better and more acute or something similar, like blind people use echolocation, is that not a skill?

 

[Epiccheev]

Even if I gave my biggest Garou skill wank of all time he'd get no diffed by Kenshiro and Mori Jin so rip.

Maybe, but they will also never have a MMV as cool as this.

 

[azontr]

Garou will always no-diff in terms of physique.

 

[Phoenks]

Maybe, but they will also never have a MMV as cool as this.

YOU RIGHT.

OPM fan animations are the best in the game.

 

[Epiccheev]

Iron Fist soloing everyone with Chi

Dragon warrior victim

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Will be arguing Elektra and Daredevil, especially since I’m aiming to revise the former’s utterly disgusting profile. Her 2014 run has her easily within the top 5 most skilled in Marvel, and top 5 best martial artists in this list.

 

[First_Witch]

Enhanced Senses are absolutly skill if attained through training

I also have a question about enhanced sensing and skill

What if you like, train your senses to like, be better and more acute or something similar, like blind people use echolocation, is that not a skill?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Will be arguing Elektra and Daredevil, especially since I’m aiming to revise the former’s utterly disgusting profile. Her 2014 run has her easily within the top 5 most skilled in Marvel, and top 5 best martial artists in this list.

It hurts my feelings since the current profile was changed by me because the last version was even worse.

Did that because I couldn’t stand a barebones profile so I improved it a lit bit.