bruh we’re doing the thing where we section out parts and argue like that lol
Sonic has his own fighting style plus several others he implements into his attacks. The counter argument you used for Zero seems far less impressive. It just states he's good at using a buster and saber (Which btw, Sonic also mastered three different sword styles all within a day), and when you say street fighters, I assume you mean the game franchise? And not real life street fights? Because one is far less impressive.
That’s really not how it works tbh, when you learn to add new martial arts into your current style, that’s just your style evolving and improving, it’s not its seperate thing. Zero does the same here, he’s also constant evolving his style, learning new skills that are implemented into his combat in every game with the Learning System
It’s the Hadoken one lol. Ryu and Ken, Akuma- heck Magma Dragoon is straight up just Akuma actually. I’ll have to look around but apparently Street Fighter is an actual thing in Mega Man and it’s not just some ”haha funny refefence” thing.
- What does the 4000 years stuff have to do with the argument you quoted? It just talks about Sonic viewing Knuckles moves as basic. Anyways, if Sonic's reason for being able to easily read Knuckles moves were speed, he would've stated it were easy to dodge as opposed to read. Reading someone's moves requires skills as opposed to speed. Not to mention, Knuckles can tag people FASTER than Sonic in Battle. That being Shadow (Who in the manuals is stated to be the fastest character).
- Likewise for Sonic. Hell, one of the martial arts Sonic acquired was one known only to one family IIRC (The Linshao Kung Fu IIRC). Sonic defeats every knight in Sonic and the Secret Knights despite having years of experience and being the best of the best at the round table. Their weapons are different types of swords IIRC. Sonic himself defeats thousands of robots which can overthrow armed cities without the help of Sonic or his friends. Etc.
The 4000 years stuff was just a prelude to the Emerl stuff. And okay I guess? The knights having years of experience shouldn’t be anything much better than Magma Dragoon or Torch Man or Fefnir or X or the ancient AF Stardroids or pretty much every Maverick Hunter ever who’ve dedicated their entire lives to running hands. Zero also tags people faster than him too like Leviathan in the water, Harpuia, etc. Also he’d upscale over Mega Man who fights speed blitzer types like Ra Thor and Quick Man and Flash Man with just a Buster
I'd say Eggman's (How is fairly above Weil in intellect) skill in replicating people is more impressive tbh. He hasn't had as much time, given he's only had years of experience (But nearly a million losses). However, he's been shown to consistently easily create machines with his intellect and ideologies, that can also replicate all the techniques, abilities, and moves of an opponent with a mere glance. He's also programmed robots with the collective skill of several people for a race if I'm remembering correctly and was designed to easily win, yet was still bested by Sonic. I've played two of the Zero game, I don't really remember him spending centuries on how to beat Zero though, so I'll take your word for it. But it's basically one scientist spending centuries figuring out how to beat someone, vs a scientist who's spent years learning every one of their movements and can create technology that replicates all of a character's skill, statistics, intellect, abilities, etc. (Most notably Metal Sonic/Neo Metal Sonic). It also doesn't help that on TOP of being Sonic's equal, it also posses SEVERAL abilities Sonic does not have in addition such as flight, barriers, speed amps, energy projection attacks, etc. yet Sonic wins EVERY bout with him, and has even one against him in 2v2's and 1v2.
It’s not that Weil spent all of those years thinking about how to beat Zero moreso studying his every atom (exaggeration) of his original body, when I say Weil glazed over Original Body Zero we’re talking like he was in love my man he was swinging the other direction, completely obsessed. He used his DNA (yes it’s called DNA) to make the Mother/Dark Elf and everything- so bro definitely knows how Zero is, let alone a copy of his bod. Whereas the Egg Dragoon has spent years and still probably hasn’t completed its analysis on Sonic, there is straight up no more room for improvement in studying Zero and how he fights.
I feel like being Sonic’s equal plus some techniques isn’t exactly as good as being equal to Zero- except all of your stats are so juiced up that all of Zero’s comparable rivals (like Fefnir, Leviathan, and Harupia, all of which modeled after Actual X’s experiences / skill) get instant AP Stomped on the first dang form, not to mention 2nd (Fusion, actually using the full might of the Dark Elf while the first form was like Frieza saying he’s only using 1% or some crap idk) and 3rd Forms (Original Body Zero, who is so powerful on his own that even without the Dark Elf he’s definitely giving Aile’s ZX Form (X and Zero’s combined might and skill combined) a tough fight). Considering that Metal doesn’t use these techniques in really all that OP ways, and Sonic being equal in stats so there’s no trouble hurting metal, I really think that Omega is just the better difference here. That AP difference is really something. And I don’t think there’s a Sonic feat where he is blatantly stomped and still comes out on top (meanwhile this if the first out of at least 2 where this has happened for the Mega Man series- See X Challenge Below)
The first half doesn't sound super impressive. It just sounds like improvisation for weapons that he's used before. I've played MM Zero 3 (around 3 times, but my last playthrough was in 2022, so I don't remember everything). Most of the equipable Z-Knuckle stuff gives you access to weapons that while different, are pretty similar to stuff he's used before. Like anything gun related, of course he'll pick that up easy when he's used the Buster for YEARS. Stuff like using the tongue as a whip is good though. But it doesn't quite sound as impressive as what Sonic has done. That being mimicking and mastering 3 sword styles, beating the best knights in the world in 1 day. What makes it impressive is that Sonic became THE best sword wielder by picking up a sword for LESS than a day. The people Zero outskils he's had YEARS of experience over. Of course he'd be better. He's one of the biggest sword users in the Mega Man series period. Sonic on the other hand uses nothing CLOSE to a sword and picked it up and became the best at it effortlessly. Zero from what I've seen wasn't shown to pick up a weapon, and with less than a day of training, become the best in the world at using it.
Zero didn’t even take a day, he just- takes the weapon (like the chain rod for example, whips being the hardest of weapons to master let’s be real- actually bad example because the level system exists that also nerfed his saber, so let’s go with V Hanger or smth), and just uses it as properly as his other weapons and learns new skills for it just as fast as he does with his Z-Saber. Same with his Z-Knuckle weapons, except that it’s not just the same as his other weapons other than visually. These are body parts not proper weapons, there’s no trigger, there’s no sights, they weren’t even designed for a humanoid to use as a weapon with weight distribution messed up all over the place, the fact that Zero can use it proficiently at all is an absurd feat in of itself let alone make use of it as well as his other weapons.
Eggman similarly creates robots meant solely for combat, so I don't know why that's too important. Sonic has also picked up weapons from corpses and used it. Like in the scan earlier where he picks up a lance from an Egg Pawn and uses it to decapitate all the robots around him and tosses it like a spear to punch a gaping hole in a battery. Sonic's style switches up in most games too. He's most known for his recurring speed moveset like boost, homing attack, rolling attack, etc. But in games like Sonic Battle, 90% of his moveset is comprised of hand to hand combat, technological gadgets (Explosives), and speed based projectiles. In Frontiers, you spend the whole game unlocking new moves. He's wrestled with and used hand to hand combat a few times in Forces, etc.
Okay uh… He can punch and throw objects. Epic. He hasn’t picked up as many weapons as Zero does like Glaives, Spears, Tonfas, Knuckles, Whips, Daggers, Shields ETC, so he isn’t as diverse, though you can argue that to be a good thing (smth smth practice one kick 1000 times or smth Bruce Lee the art of war), but I personally think being diverse in your provfincency in multiple weapons on the same level as your preferred weapon is better and just grinding on one because eventually there's gonna be a cap in biomechanical ways to apply your skill
- If Zero called the copy as weak compared to X himself, it probably means he's not as impressive. I do still think Zero > X though considering years back, X and Zero (and maybe Axl?) needed to 2(3?)v1 Omega, yet in their rematch in the Zero series games he won in a 1v1 while Omega was amped. Already covered Metal earlier though, so I'll just brief stuff about him. On top of being Sonic's equal in every way, he posses several abilities unique to only him that give him inherent advantages over Sonic, AND has the ability to copy other peoples abilities simply with a glance (Scanning), and has yet to defeat Sonic once. Even when Sonic is outnumbered.
It was more of a “character” thing, when Zero compares Copy X to the real deal, he’s mostly referring to how Copy X doesn’t have the same righteous naive heart X has, why he feels more “strength” out of X, the hero’s attacks than Copy’s. Again, Copy X has the same specifications as the real deal, strength, skill, all of it. If Zero fought the real X, the result would be the same, just that he wouldn’t call him weak.
- Emerl isn't honed in one field though. The now non-canon game (That was canon when it came out) explained that Emerl was built for war against several other races in a war for power. He has built in experience of hand to hand combat, weapons, and hax.
The scan says ALL the data is about melee combat from that specific time, and nothing in between those years, that’s all I gonna base this whole thing off of. Even the data that broke the computer was that specific data, it just meant that it was a lot of information on skill of that era
- You forgot the part about it being able to copy modern weaponry as well. Emerl was awakened 50 years ago by Dr. Gerald (The genius who created Shadow The Hedgehog), and was able to copy numerous of the weapons he had aboard the ship, and had to shut him off when he started getting out of control. So he's not limited to super far back, and even ancient technology in Sonic is shown to be vastly more impressive than what we have in current days. Hell, they had stuff that even scientist like Tails and Eggman have trouble fully grasping with their computers who are currently treated as more intelligent than the likes of Wily or Dr. Weil on their profiles. And the feat in question is talking about the end of the game where Emerl gained access to ALL data he had ever recorded throughout his lifespan. All 4000 years. This isn't referring to the beginning of the game as you seem to be mentioning.
I mean, alright sure, but how can you prove the ancient tech from where Emerl is from is = to the Ancients from Frontiers? Also, computers crashing isn’t a big deal as you think, there just happens to be that much quantity of data. Even unintelligible files like a txt just going AAAAAAAAAAAAAA will still take up space (along with data being recorded for every infinitesimal moment of a lifespan), and most of Emerl’s lifespan has nothing of note, I can’t really prove a negative, all I do know is that he was awakened in the events of the game, and those 4000 years can really just be… empty, all the statement got is what he has 4000 years ago, not everything inbetween. All we get is that all of the combat data he has will be used which refers to the ones from that age
even so, Stardroids being ancient too and Ra Moon being a 20,000 year old super computer should compete if not surpass just fine.
- Zavok's leadership is also something that shines. He's also shown to be able to sneak into one of Eggman's bases, and combat opponents with various abilities that go beyond close combat. Heck, I'd argue him fighting opponents with the versaility of what he faces with MOSTLY hand to hand combat is more impressive than winning with LOTS of versatility since it puts you at a large disadvantage. And everything you've mentioned, Sonic has unironically dealt with already. Don't recall Zero fighting someone that can one-shot him though. He's faced time-stop, time slow, paralysis inducing beams, space-time distorting, etc in the form of Shadow who already shares Sonic's speed and strength. Enemies that can create a shit ton of copies (Eggman or Infinite), sneak attack and spam TP (Shadow again. Shadow is really cracked tbh), control the terrain (Eggman again IIRC though it depends on the extent), fought in an area that nerfs Sonic's main asset (Speed. He was forced to fight Metal Sonic and Starline in snow, which ruined his traction and severely limited his movement) and underwater (Where he can only hold his breath for 30 seconds and his speed is drastically reduced), as for a dark area, IIRC, he dodes light beams from robots in the credits of CD, and can predict incoming attacks/projectiles without looking or knowing of the enemies presence thanks to precog.
Okay, but uh, Mega Man nor Zero really use their “lots of versatility”- they’ll use it if they can but note that Mega Man can fight any RM at any order he likes, not one of them is definitively canon, but much like Fate/stay, they are all possibilities that can happen and be used as feats, so Mega Man really can Buster Only every Robot Master. Same applies to Zero who upscales and uses his Saber instead (Gun > Sword) to fight
But fine, Zero does legit fight in those One Shot conditions multiple times like Heatnix and his minibosses, Lumine, and X fights Awakened Zero’s One Shot Genmu Zero attack which he spams after a certain point.
- And Mega typically has a full kit of the robots he beats by the time he gets to the final boss. But given this is just meant to be a feat comparable to Emerl, I won't really comment much on it. Emerl's seems more impressive though given it is a war robot with 4000 years experience that copied numerous weapons and Sonic + all of his friends every move/ability down to even their fighting stances (And Shadow's space-time warping hax).
Perhaps, but again note that Mega Man can fight any RM at any order he likes, so the whole “has all them weapons” point doesn’t work until you get to the cringe Wily Machines that are just mid.
again I still am not convinced that the 4000 years actually happened to be only combat or anything at all for that matter, besides Stardroid scaling and Ra Moon‘s 20,000 supercomputer experience should even it out
- He was caught in Eggman's hands. Or rather his mech. But he didn't lose. He still beat the hundreds of other robots right before facing Eggman directly while simultaneously evading artillery fire from Eggman's cannons. Zero himself has lost too. Most notably against X, but this isn't really a "flaw".
If you rely on a power up like Super Sonic, for the sake of this thread, he “lost” because this is a thing to prove his skill. Meanwhile, Zero didn’t lose at all, he just collapsed by the time he beat all of the enemies (because he was fighting for a year straight). He also didn’t lose against X. In fact he arguably won as Sigma tried to sneak them after their fight (a stalemate), Zero was the first to get up and protect X
- Sonic did arguably fight billions of robots (Quite literally. Eggman took over 90% of the globe in Forces IIRC, with all cities being overrun by Badniks and infinite clones) in a day after being tortured for 6 months straight. And do keep in mind, the Badniks are comparable to him, and the Super Badniks in particular even moreso. He didn't fight ALL the robots by himself, but you play as Sonic and the OC to take over chunks of the globe all at once. So he'd still being beating millions to possibly billions. There's also colors where he fights off entire planets (6 planets IIRC?) full of Eggman's robots with space ships that flood space as back-up.
Alright, half the population of the globe in the X Series were Reploids, most of them going Maverick, the Maverick Hunters would be handling similar numbers if we’re going with that argument as much as I hate saying that.
- The stage doesn't even completely obscure sight. There are stage mechanics that obscure sight, but it's rare for them to completely take away Zero's sight. And while you can see in the dark, that's lit darkness. There's not a lot of place aside from maybe your room in the middle of the night (Assuming you have no other sources of light in your room) that is "pitch-black". I can't even see my hand in my room at night, but I can see just outside my house just fine. It's really just light pollution tbh.
- Can see, but sight seems obscured from what we can see. Though that is still impressive regardless.
- It doesn't seem to ***** up basic movements or anything though. Just locks access to his more useful arsenal. I also always interpreted the "arm" thing as him just being worn down. It looks more like a "tired" animation. But I can see how it can be interpreted as malfunctioning.
- Nor can Sonic when hit by Shadow's full body paralysis inducing Chaos Spear or Silver's full body paralysis TK, yet still comes out on top of both of them. And their effects are more crippling (but don't have the same long lasting effects).
- In the first stage of the game, he can quite clearly see fine. It seems he even exited the sandstorm in the intro. So not sure why he'd be blinded here. These effects also seem to ***** up stuff that wouldn't hunder Zero significantly. Like deceiving radar/sonar/detection systems. Zero mostly sees/hears to fight.
- Were his weapons broken after the timeskip, or at the beginning of it. If so, that sounds like he had properly functioning weapons for part or most of the timeskip, and they were only broken upon meeting said engineer.
- To be fair, he thought it was dicey because he was on Eggman's ship in addition to that. And Neo Metal being there definitely didn't help. He had to fight them in an area where he was at a disadvantage. Typically badniks are childs play for him. Not that it matters since I don't think "being bored" makes a skill feat more impressive. Maybe slightly increases how impressive it is if even that.
Much like your argument for the 227000 Eggman Triumph statement and the Galaga situation, this one’s a game mechanic. It’s verbatim stated in the scan, Zero can’t see and is supposed to be paralyzed. At the end of the Intro Stage the sandstorm just- returns at the exact time gameplay is not longer necessary. If you had to play the whole introduction stage, the stage where you are supposed to learn the game for the first time, while you can’t see crap- that’s just terrible game design, in lore and in the scan, Zero cannot see- it’s stated to steal his sight, that’s just how it is- much like how Sonic isn’t actually playing Galaga- both situations are tailored for the player.
Similar to the sight argument, Zero cannot move properly, he’s supposed to be paralyzed- and to add onto that since you kind of want to use the gameplay elements, Zero straight up can’t even do a double or triple slash, his most fundamental form of attack. Heck even I can do a triple slash with a stick (yes I practice that combo and end it with a Ryuenjin)
Same with the ECM, first off, Sonar IS sound, second, Radar IS EM Waves, third, ECM doesn’t necessarily mean those three things, they can easily just trick Zero’s eyes, and why wouldn’t they if they know that Zero fights by seeing? The scan says the countermeasure system to make this happen was perfect- so why would it have unnecessary effects?
Even if Sonic has some paralysis, he doesn’t have to deal with it forever, he can just take the L and try not get hit next time, Zero just has to deal with it, along with every other thing he has to deal with at that time, remember he's dealing with the whole army, paralysis, blind, gaslit, and crap weapons at the same time for a year.
We don’t know, but they were at least broken earlier than his Saber and Buster which have already become so worn by the intro stage the Buster can barely hold a charge.
It’s actually a pretty big deal. The difference between bored and struggling, trying and not trying is huge. Ever seen Chess Grandmasters go around the room where they play against multiple people at one time? How they stop to think at times? Now imagine they said it was boring to take up that challenge. A more easily example to understand is the diff when gamers sit up in their chair and when they are slouched over. I had a friend who did that to me, once he sat up he absolutely demolished me in Smash Bros. In Zero’s case, he specifically said that doing the feat “wasn’t fun anymore”, implying that fighting for his life was simply fun- not a task, not scary- recreational fun. I really fail to see how this isn’t impressive.
The scans don’t lie man, the whole plan of Neo Arcadia is to do the things the scan says, the invoke the gameplay mechanics is kinda just being like... selective considering you use the Galaga and 227000 Eggman washing as statements just fine
- This one seems more nitpicky. He doesn't implement it into his fighting style because he deems that he doesn't need it. So tosses it out as you quoted. Though there are a few times he has used it (IIRC, against Shadow in Adventure 2, and I think in a twitter takeover videos a couple years back? And maybe in the Sonic channel stories). I mean, he does technically implement it into his fighting style in Super Form, but that's Super Form. Of course he'd use it then. The learning system from what I recall also only lets him know how to use weapons/abilities. But I don't recall it stating he copies all of the experience/skill of the people he copied it from. That seems like something he has to accumulate on his own. And even so, Sonic has bested people who DO copy skill/experience/intellect on top of techniques in the form of Metal Sonic.
Perhaps for some moves, but I fail to see a valid reason why a power as broken as TELEPORTATION wouldn’t fit into anyone’s combat style- in addition to swordplay, a weapon being literally just always 100% of the time a good decision to have if you don’t have anything else, but aight. Zero doesn’t copy their experiences, what my point was is that he instantly created a technique based on their abilities to work into his own style- he doesn’t let the experience go to waste and throw it out he actively uses them to improve- not just throw out what you don’t need even though it could be very useful (SONIC WTF R U DOING WHY DO YOU NOT WANT TO TELEPORT)
- He was far further away than Little Planet which was already like, hundreds of meters away easily. I think it's easily Kilometers. Sonic improvised a rock as a weapon, and landed a curved shot to take out a moving small target from kilometers away. But yes, I'd agree Tomahawk's feat is very impressive.
aight then I guess we can just drop it, they’re both dumb feats wtf
- Sonic ISN'T the only active hero with powers and skills around though. MOST of Sonic's friends ironically have better powers than Sonic and are equals/comparable to him. Such as Shadow and Silver to name a few (Shadow is also really skilled, Silver is younger though, but still skilled in his own right). Let alone Tails who despite having the same intellect as Eggman as stated verbatim by official manuals still wouldn't be capable of beating Eggman by himself.
- The entire globe was overwhelmed by Eggman's prototype in the very beginning of Sonic Forces. Including Sonic's friends and cities full of armed citizens (Their weapons ARE comparable to Sonic, keep that in mind). And the ONLY people who made a difference in the war between Eggman and the Resistance was Sonic and Rookie. Eggman was so advantaged, he didn't even deem using his stronger weapons (Like the complete phantom ruby) necessary. And yet said stronger weapons were also overwhelmed by Sonic.
aight fine for these two, Zero and Sonic are just the only guys to stand up to the entire world, sure, although Sonic has his friend’s help to rescue him and do everything else afterwards in Forces, meanwhile Zero just does everything alone with some communications that essentially are useless aside from whining to Zero about their problems
- I'm pretty sure you can hack several pieces of tech from Eggman AND the Ancients (Who had data beyond Eggman's computation) without Tails being nearby. Not that it matters since Tails doesn't even aide Sonic in that. And come on, it's pretty clear he's playing "Galaga" for the players sake. It's more fun than actually doing stereotypical hacking stuff like tapping random buttons on a keyboard to bust into the mainframe. This can more likely just be chalked up to game mechanics because we've seen earlier that Eggman's security is top-notch stuff in-verse. People also seem to have the weird impression Sonic isn't tech savvy when Sonic created the very first plane we see in Sonic 2 all by himself. Tails didn't build that. Then after it crashed, Sonic went looking for tools to fix it in a FOREST of only trees, logs, etc. He met Tails after he came back to Tails already fixing the plane for him
- It's not really combat skill. It's more so a general skill thing. Since you can obviously have skill in other fields of course.
I’m pretty sure this is a combat only skill thingie anyways
- I think this seems nitpicky. He's verbatim stated to have beat Eggman that many times. It's not like SEGA worked out a timeframe for if that's even feasible. And given Eggman and Sonic's speed, accomplishing plans every 34 minutes is entirely possible. I think there's statements from Sonic that he doesn't even get that many breaks because of Eggman. Just can't recall where from unfortunately. Also, what is wrong about the super-genius reality warping dude being able to create that many complex widescale plans in minutes? That's just a feat for Eggman. most of the games OF Sonic take place in less than a year, so having years to lose 227,000 times is SUPER feasible. Eggman's also created complex schemes on a whim before. So I don't see why this is even an issue for a super genius intellect character.
Well I guess it’s stated I just thing that it’s just stupid and not in a “that’s impressive" way, it’s just dumb lol. Besides I feel like none of them would ever surpass what we see in the games anyways- can’t prove negatives
- I don't think those realities warping Cyber-elves are even used in combat against Zero that much from what I remember. Though admittedly, I missed one game in the MMZ series. So maybe they did? Or I forgot.
Neo Arcadia uses Cyber Elves and abuses their power according to Zero 1 (Train stage), same in Zero 3 (the yellow acrobatic rabbit purple fire hoe’s stage), but I’m ngl this isn’t a big deal because from what I’ve seen the whole Eggman Reality Warp Tech thing is a pretty mid feat when I don’t think I’ve ever seen that crap abused aside from like… Null Space where sonic just ran really… fast… which I feel like isn’t skill. Ur gonna have to link me a feat where Eggman invokes some universal wave function manipulation to change fate and Sonic outskills it somehow.
Most games Sonic doesn't pick up weapons either. And the times he does, he becomes the best in the world at using it almost immediately upon picking it up
This isn’t what I mean LMAO. This really meant that Zero hasn’t fought for the past century and has amnesia and a much more rusty and limited skillset (bro can’t even double slash at the beginning LMAO), and still washed Copy X. Actually though, he just woke up and immediately started turning the tide of the entire war without even knowing who he is. Same in the X Series where he washed Sigma who’s like the Top 1 Maverick Hunter includes every other people I’ve ever mentioned, and he was rabid, can’t even think, was straight up braindead
- To be fair, Modern Sonic has arguably more mobility than both Classic Sonic AND Zero put together. He is EXTREMELY versatile in mobility. His whole shtick is super speedy acrobatics. Mega Man does have a better arsenal when he's fully equipped though. Though that's not accounting for Sonic when he's similarly equipped.
- Most of Sonic Forces is Sonic fighting against people who are comparable to or stronger than him despite them having a number advantage. He fought against a perfect copy of Metal Sonic, Chaos 0, Zavok, Shadow simultaneously despite all of them being ~ Sonic. He also makes Infinite struggle in his rematch even when Infinite resorts to summoning like 5 clones of himself while being >>> Sonic. Keep in mind that the clones are verbatim stated to be equal to the originals. And yes, he did 1v6 the Deadly Six. Though they aren't weaker. Someone like Zavok is outright stronger, and the rest are just comparable/relative to him. I also don't really recall Ultimate Armor X being >> Zero. Is there like a statement of that or something?
Of course, but in the grand scheme of skilled people, Zero nor Marisa come even close to the comically stupid skill gods of certain verses. And you seem to be implying Sonic doesn't fight diverse opponents when literally every game is extremely diverse in terrain, opponents, and abilities. Sonic is like, unironically one of the most diverse video-game series to a point people hate on the series for it (Rightfully so in the case of some games). One game he's fighting a super genius (who in and of themselves are super varied), in another he's fighting gods, world ending threats, ancient civilizations hyper advanced technologies beyond modern day comprehension while suffering a physical nerf in the form of cyber corruption, ancient species with magical abilities, the government, etc. So to act as if he's only skilled in one thing, and one thing only is dishonest. MOST of Sonic's rivals are literally haxy people that are by themselves comparable to him (Shadow, Silver, Metal Sonic, Eggman, etc.).
That’s kind of unintentionally proving my point here, Zero does not have the mobility options Sonic has, he’s really just working with a Saber and that’s about it most of the time. And Classic Mega Man has even LESS mobility options going up against more mobile and haxed dudes with just his Buster really
Okay when I saw not as strong I mean in an overall way especially Speed which is the biggest contributor to lowering the value of skill feats, if I recall y’all said (maybe it was Shake) that Sonic washed the Zeti, and honestly it’s only logical to think that’s the case because of speed. Either way idc too much since we already are doing the whole 1v1000 argument already, your main question is the whole Ultimate Armor X >>> Zero thing, which isn’t what I mean to say:
In the X Challenge (yes that crap is canon according to a new data book or smth actually fml), X is tasked to fight a bunch of Maverick battles 1v2, and depending on your interpretation in straight up base form with no armors. One of these fights is up against Awakened Black Zero and all Armors X at the SAME TIME. Zero on his own is already superior to base X, like a complete stomp thanks to beating Vile in the intro stage of X1, let alone Awakened Black Zero (two really strong amps) along with an Ultimate Armor X who would be equal to that. X Era Base X can beat them, Zero Era X upscales, Copy X scales, Zero Era Zero dogwalks.
I’m ngl- I straight up do underestimate the hax he goes up against lol, the only real hax I really thought mattered were Chaos Control (which ends up just being teleportation spam most of the time) and Telekinesis
Nah, you're good. Don't think you're glazing him at all. Though I do think you're heavily underestimating Sonic's sklls. Sonic is beyond just basic martial arts. In fact, most of the verse is something else entirely. Minority of the verse is martial arts stuff tbh. Only martial arts stuff is like Espio, Knuckles, and Deadly Six. Take some peaks into games whenever Sonic picks up new abilities, like Secret Rings where he gets Shahra who gives him access to like, an entire list of hax/abilities. Or 06 where he gets access to hax shoes. I think pretty much anything Zero has been faced with, Sonic has similarly been confronted with. Most likely due to his significantly longer run time/screen-time compared to him + several other official media's like the IDW Comics and Sonic Channel website stories.
If the two were equalized statistic-wise, I can see Sonic folding Zero. Though I think with a fair amount of difficulty. Given Sonic's arsenal ain't nearly as big (Though I guess it depends on how much of Sonic's arsenal you give him and how much of Zero's arsenal you give him, since both can have a lot or a little).
in specifically just unarmed hand to hand or melee combat, I can see that- Zero’s skill feats are much more general and well rounded than Sonic’s is because Sonic is a close range fighter, so all of his skill development would be focused in that general area (most of his feats seem centered around the knights and Emerl’s melee combat) where as Zero just has a lot more to work with his feats just being more applicable to general combat which for me is just more valuable
there’s probably so many other robot masters and situations that I’m missing tbh-
but the two can be interchangeable cuz they both have similar feats (in concept) for the most part like handling a wide variety of hax, bodies armies with handicaps, martial masters, being studied for long periods of time, etc. based on what you responded my stuff with.
Bro did not just start a war (well actually I technically did but I’m gonna blame you anyways)
also bruh it’s 5:45 let me sleep u made me type this shit for like 3 hours
Oh right, this doesn’t include the first message I posted here and it’s feats (wait it’s mostly what was already mentioned but read it again anyways because there are some things like Gate that I didn’t mention)
