Satoru Gojo VS Reinhard Van Astrea PART 2 (3-8-3)

[speedster352]

I think I will go with Gojo for now

 

[Tatsumi504]

It's literally on the cursed energy page.


Actually yes.

They have resistance to this precisely because everything is cursed energy, so Reinahard would not resist some cursed technique because of this.

I don't see how specific techniques interacting with information means all CT has information manipulation

Actually no

Just bes an ability works off "x" to do "y" doesn't mean you need to resist "x" to overcome "y" (if that makes sense)

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Reinhard gets put into a function. He still has no way I'm aware of to bypass Infinity. He still can't resist DE.

Regular spatial slashes mean nothing. Gojo's infinity is it's own inaccessible space. Sukuna needed to literally target the concept of all existence to hit Gojo, and he explicitly mentions Gojo existing in "that world" further highlighting the extremes of "existence" Sukuna needed to cover with his slash.

to me that sounds like a reach, it wouldnt make sense for Sukuna to target the concept of all existence to attack just his infinity. Its more likely that it was in fact just a simple spatial slash and was endowed with flowery language just like how Reinhard's was.

Also, spatial slashes only ignore distance over their target area. A person with a 50m spatial slash cannot cut across the universe. As soon as a spatial slash reaches Gojo, it will be subject to his infinity space and get faded. I still don't see a viable wincon.

Sukuna already did it in canon, you can stop rambling about that now

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don't see how specific techniques interacting with information means all CT has information manipulation

Actually no

Just bes an ability works off "x" to do "y" doesn't mean you need to resist "x" to overcome "y" (if that makes sense)

So do a crt, because that's exactly how it is.

On the literal page of general cursed energy is the manipulation of type 2 information, so all this energy is type 2 information.

It's accepted that way, so do a crt if you think not.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Reinhard gets put into a function. He still has no way I'm aware of to bypass Infinity. He still can't resist DE.

Regular spatial slashes mean nothing. Gojo's infinity is it's own inaccessible space. Sukuna needed to literally target the concept of all existence to hit Gojo, and he explicitly mentions Gojo existing in "that world" further highlighting the extremes of "existence" Sukuna needed to cover with his slash.

Also, spatial slashes only ignore distance over their target area. A person with a 50m spatial slash cannot cut across the universe. As soon as a spatial slash reaches Gojo, it will be subject to his infinity space and get faded. I still don't see a viable wincon.

If Reinhard can indeed get to a point of combat speed that Gojo can't react to before opening DE, it's an inconclusive result.

Uh, that's not how it works. At best Gojo has only been shown to have infinity a few meters away from himself at best.
A 50m spatial cut would work cause all the space in that few meters is getting separated.

Gojo isn't creating an infinite distance between him and his opponent. His neutral infinity is basically a compact dimension. Doesn't matter if there's infinite points for an attack to pass through, so long as he's within the confines of the space being cut, he is getting cut as well

 

[Zabazab]

Regular spatial slashes mean nothing. Gojo's infinity is it's own inaccessible space. Sukuna needed to literally target the concept of all existence to hit Gojo, and he explicitly mentions Gojo existing in "that world" further highlighting the extremes of "existence" Sukuna needed to cover with his slash.

Am I blind? I can't find conceptual manipulation on either Sukuna or Gojo's profiles.

 

[Tatsumi504]

So do a crt, because that's exactly how it is.

I ain't even done with my verse, why will I jump to another? It's also my policy to not get deeply involved in verses I don't have near photographic memory of it's happenings so I won't be doing that.

On the literal page of general cursed energy is the manipulation of type 2 information, so all this energy is type 2 information.

Then someone needs to handle that

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

It's literally on the cursed energy page.

As Tatsumi mentioned above, those feats are only applicable to certain cursed techniques. That doesnt mean all of them do

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Satoru Gojo, the Strongest Sorcerer, VS Reinhard Van Astrea, the Sword Saint

The sequel to the madness. Originally closed for becoming a toxic nightmare. I bring you this thread, to finally get to the conclusion of this fight.

I understand that the statistics in JJK are a bit outdated, but statistics hardly matter in this fight so who cares?

Rules:

• Speed is equalized.
• The battle takes place in a large colosseum.
• They start approximately 100 meters away from one another.
• All standard win conditions are valid.
• Reinhard can draw Reid.

Small correction Satoru Gojo, the Strongest Sorcerer of Modern Era (Second strongest overall)

 

[Phsccarvalho]

As Tatsumi mentioned above, those feats are only applicable to certain cursed techniques. That doesnt mean all of them do

Like I said, it's not.

This is literally on the general cursed energy page, and sorcerers gain resistance to type 2 information simply by fighting guys who use cursed energy/also have cursed energy in them.

• Conceptual Manipulation & Information Manipulation (Type 3 & Type 2 - Sorcerers are engaging in combat against Curse Spirits which utilize cursed energy all the time and they themselves have cursed energy flowing through them)

So it's not just specific techniques.

Am I blind? I can't find conceptual manipulation on either Sukuna or Gojo's profiles.

As far as I know the CM of Gojo was removed by 7-0 votes.

We need to stop taking the word "concept" at face value (Satoru Gojo CM removal)

This is exactly why I'd like to wait before we started putting the changes in because its hard enough to get anything done without having to wait huge chunks of time to attempt changes to the verse. But what's done is done here and there is little point in keeping this thread open if the changes...

vsbattles.com

 

[Dr._whiteee]

to me that sounds like a reach,

Ok?

it wouldnt make sense for Sukuna to target the concept of all existence to attack just his infinity.

That's quite literally what is stated. I just posted the scan.

Its more likely that it was in fact just a simple spatial slash and was endowed with flowery language just like how Reinhard's was.

No, I literally just broke it down for you. Kenjaku states CTs have a target concept. Yuki also becomes immune to Kenjaku's Cursed spirits concepts which is why he needed a domain to hit her with his own CT. Sukuna explicitly states he needed to target all of existence to hit Gojo in "that world".

If you think it's "flowery language" then you will need to prove that claim.

Sukuna already did it in canon, you can stop rambling about that now

Sukuna targeted all of existence. Not a simple spatial slash. So moot point really.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Am I blind? I can't find conceptual manipulation on either Sukuna or Gojo's profiles.

The feat for Sukuna just came out and the verse is undergoing heavy revisions which is why this thread shouldn't be up in the first place. But if you aren't blind you could read those conveniently posted manga panels for the direct evidence.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Uh, that's not how it works.

Actually it is.

At best Gojo has only been shown to have infinity a few meters away from himself at best.

This is you not understanding how his powers work. His space is directly stated to be infinite and not follow the rules of regular space, Gojo's infinity space is obviously not only inches, lest Sukuna wouldn't have needed to target all of existence to bypass it.

A 50m spatial cut would work cause all the space in that few meters is getting separated.

Good thing Gojo isn't in regular space and therefore wouldn't feel the consequences of regular space being cut.

Gojo isn't creating an infinite distance between him and his opponent. His neutral infinity is basically a compact dimension. Doesn't matter if there's infinite points for an attack to pass through, so long as he's within the confines of the space being cut, he is getting cut as well

It's not. Gojo explicitly states that Infinity is actually everywhere, his sorcery is bringing that abstract quality into reality. That is why Sukuna refers to Gojo as being in a separate world when explaining how he was able to bypass infinity.

Spoiler: Translation for first scan

Infinity actually exists everywhere.My magic is just to bring it into reality.

 

[Phoenks]

Sukuna targeting the CONCEPT OF EXISTENCE ITSELF! is an amazing take, wow. You know what's crazy? It NEVER said that.



Sukuna explicitly targets space to bypass Gojo's ability.

Using this statement to say that Sukuna is cutting concepts could be used for Reinhard too lmao. He targeted the world itself multiple times.

Anyway, Gojo's Infinity creates infinite space in finite space. Finite space is what's ignored by a spatial slash when it cuts across the world, and thus that infinite space is ignored as well.

If you disagree, then whatever, this was argued a lot on the last thread and it just resulted in a never-ending debacle.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Reinhard FRA.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

That is why Sukuna refers to Gojo as being in a separate world when explaining how he was able to bypass infinity.

Ok so this is a gross misunderstanding of what happens. Sukuna is saying as long as he exists in space or the world he will always be cut

Here he says he targets space the world existence whatever

and because he (or his infinity) still exists within the world he can be cut

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Ok so this is a gross misunderstanding of what happens. Sukuna is saying as long as he exists in space or the world he will always be cut

Here he says he targets space the world existence whatever

and because he still exists within the world he can be cut

It's not. There is a reason he doesn't stop at space and clarifies about the world and reality. Specifically, the kanji utilized for world is referencing the Buddhist definition which includes all layers of existence, time, etc.,

Spoiler

Additionally, the term is originally a borrowing from Buddhist cosmology, specifically the term "lokadhaatu," which refers to the universe, or the "world system." This is attested by multiple sources here on Kotobank (https://kotobank.jp/word/世界-546855) as follows: 精選版 日本国語大辞典 (1st entry): A kanji translation of lokadhātu. 世 refers to the three states of temporal existence— the past, the present, and the future— and 界 refers to east, west, south, north, up, and down: the whole of time and space in which living things reside. The realm of mountains and rivers where people and creatures live. The present world. The Three Thousand Worlds which the Buddha enlightened. デジタル大辞泉 (7th entry): Translation of Sanskrit "lokadhātu." 世 refers to the three states of temporal existence— the past, the present, and the future— and 界 refers to east, west, south, north, up, and down. Buddhist term. a). The name of the four lands centered around Mt. Sumeru. Used as a unit to count the Three Thousand Worlds. b.) The realm ruled solely by the Buddha. c). The universe. 世界大百科事典 第２版 (1st entry): Originally Buddhist terminology, refers to the space in which creatures live and are reborn. Translation of Sanskrit "lokadhātu." Loka means "space," and dhātu means "stratum." [...] The Sanskrit "loka" does not necessarily mean time, but its kanji translation 世 does.

Yes, read what you just posted. Sukuna states the following:

• He couldn't just send a slash through space to hit Gojo.
• He had to change the techniques target concept to space, the world, all of existence, to bypass infinity.
• Sukuna states as long as infinity existed in "that world", he would be hit. Sukuna does not say "this world" implying the space Sukuna is in, and the space Gojo occupies, are not the same, until he unified both by targeting all of existence, which also encapsulates Gojo's infinity, given the infinity is everywhere.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Sukuna targeting the CONCEPT OF EXISTENCE ITSELF! is an amazing take, wow. You know what's crazy? It NEVER said that.



Sukuna explicitly targets space to bypass Gojo's ability.

Using this statement to say that Sukuna is cutting concepts could be used for Reinhard too lmao. He targeted the world itself multiple times.

Anyway, Gojo's Infinity creates infinite space in finite space. Finite space is what's ignored by a spatial slash when it cuts across the world, and thus that infinite space is ignored as well.

If you disagree, then whatever, this was argued a lot on the last thread and it just resulted in a never-ending debacle.

So you are going to ignore the evidence I posted about CT being conceptual and Sukuna clearly referencing the same mechanic when explaining how he bypassed infinity? Cool.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

He literally states he cut existence. The way it's said seems pretty clear cut that infinity was a bubble not disconnected to normal space thus Sukuna just needed to sever space to hit Gojo.

 

[Phoenks]

So you are going to ignore the evidence I posted about CT being conceptual and Sukuna clearly referencing the same mechanic when explaining how he bypassed infinity? Cool.

Type 3 conceptual manipulation applications are usually no different than standard applications of abilities though and can be countered by non-conceptual versions of the same thing.

Cutting the type 3 concept of existence/space/world or whatever is really no different than just cutting space normally. So it's not really countering the whole "Space cut beats Gojo" argument.

But is conceptual cursed energy even accepted? All I see is that there's a resistance to type 3, nothing about there being type 3 manipulation.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Type 3 conceptual manipulation applications are usually no different than standard applications of abilities though and can be countered by non-conceptual versions of the same thing.

Type 3 only exists for weaker sorcerors. Special Grade sorcers such as Gojo, Sukuna, and Yuki would be given type 2. The thread to add Yuki's concept manip and Kenjaku's explanation has not happened yet as the verse is undergoing revision.

Cutting the type 3 concept of existence/space/world or whatever is really no different than just cutting space normally. So it's not really countering the whole "Space cut beats Gojo" argument.

That would be applicable if it were type 3 we were talking about, but we aren't.

Sticking to what is accepted on the profiles, Type 3 concept manip would default to information type 2 and abstract mathematics manipulation, both of which Reinhard does not resist or interact with .

But is conceptual cursed energy even accepted? All I see is that there's a resistance to type 3, nothing about there being type 3 manipulation.

Type 3 is, type 2 will be discussed in the next thread regarding abilities. This would also include sukuna's.

Therefore, Sukuna's ability should not be utilized in this thread. You cannot have your cake and eat it to. Until supporters and opponents come together to decide what to add it as, it shouldn't be used, which is fair to both sides.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I agree that we should not even use Sukunas stuff yet because like I said before why are we arguing over stuff not in the profiles

I feel us arguing over these abilities being valid or not is not appropriate and we should argue what is within the profiles as them being valid or not would be for a CRT.

 

[Phoenks]

Ignoring Sukuna entirely, a space cut would still slice through Infinity.

Infinity creates infinite points in a finite space, thereby making that space 'infinite' in a more abstract way. But that doesn't really matter, since the finite space would by ignored and bypassed by a spatial severance, thereby ignoring those infinite points as well, since it doesn't even end up interacting with that in the first place.

'Finite space' being that actual range that Infinity affects (The 'forcefield' of sorts around him). Infinity clearly does not affect the entire universe since people can still get decently close to Gojo without even coming into contact with it, thus it's weird to say it has "infinite range." The most I've seen is Infinity extending out to like, a few feet away from him. Nothing to the kilometers worth of spatial AoE that Reinhard can slash out.

Meh, but anyway, said above idrc if people disagree or not. Seems real opinionated. Maybe one day a staff member like Ultima will clarify what they think about this.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Ignoring Sukuna entirely, a space cut would still slice through Infinity.

It would not, Gojo is applying abstract mathematic manipulation to the space he is in, meaning it is not regular space. Unless Regi has cut through space with these properties, he isn't cutting through infinity.

Infinity creates infinite points in a finite space, thereby making that space 'infinite' in a more abstract way.

No it doesn't. Gojo's space is infinite and does not follow the rules established by finite dimensional space. I've already shown you this.

Adding abstractions to reality to effect is abstract math manip that outweighs spatial manipulation, Ultima striahgt up said this in his response and that was the basis for the staff accepting the mathematics manip replacement. "Milquetoast" space hax isn't touching infinity.

But that doesn't really matter, since the finite space would by ignored and bypassed by a spatial severance, thereby ignoring those infinite points as well, since it doesn't even end up interacting with that in the first place.

It would not, Regi doesn't have infinite target range and cannot interact with the abstract info type 2 reality/mathmatics Gojo is manipulating.

Unless I am missing something from Regi's capabilities.

'Finite space' being that actual range that Infinity affects (The 'forcefield' of sorts around him). Infinity clearly does not affect the entire universe since people can still get decently close to Gojo without even coming into contact with it, thus it's weird to say it has "infinite range."

This is an incorrect assessment that is contradictory to the direct evidence I have provided. People getting "close to " gojo has nothing to do with how his infinity works.

The most I've seen is Infinity extending out to like, a few feet away from him. Nothing to the kilometers worth of spatial AoE that Reinhard can slash out.

You seem to be misunderstanding his power. Infinity is not literally only millimeters away.

Meh, but anyway, said above idrc if people disagree or not. Seems real opinionated. Maybe one day a staff member like Ultima will clarify what they think about this.

They already did. Me and him agreed that Gojo's powers were too abstract to be simply spatial manip. Hence where the math manip came from. Me and him were still discussing the conceptual aspects of the ability before the thread was closed, and Ultima is still going to respond to my evidence to give context for the next upgrade.

As it stands, Regi cannot bypass infinity due to info type 2/math manip, but he can be taken out by DE.

Voting Gojo

 

[Fezzih_007]

Rejihard, lol.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Reginaldhard

 

[Phsccarvalho]

As it stands, Regi cannot bypass infinity due to info type 2/math manip, but he can be taken out by DE.

It's true, because of the general type 2 information manipulation thing of cursed energy, infinity is also type 2 information.

 

[speedster352]

Are you all forgetting that Gojo can just dodge the attacks he has the six eyes and his infinity gets buffed automatically as he sees fit and he can teleport or just use domain amplification and etc

 

[Phoenks]

vote counted

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Are you all forgetting that Gojo can just dodge the attacks he has the six eyes and his infinity gets buffed automatically as he sees fit and he can teleport or just use domain amplification and etc

• Blessing of Initiative: He cannot be ambushed, and all initial attacks from Reinhard will connect.
• Blessing of Arrow Guarantee: Any projectile he uses is guaranteed to hit the target.

He also gets additional speed amps as the fight goes on

 

[Phoenks]

Only counted 5 actual votes, since I don't like to assume things unless someone straight up says they are voting.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Only counted 5 actual votes, since I don't like to assume things unless someone straight up says they are voting.

there are 4 votes for reinhard if i am not miscounting

 

[Fezzih_007]

• Blessing of Initiative: He cannot be ambushed, and all initial attacks from Reinhard will connect.
• Blessing of Arrow Guarantee: Any projectile he uses is guaranteed to hit the target.

I think Rein-Kun should get Law manipulation because of this.

Anyway, i vote Inco because i don't know who wins this. If Gojo uses his domain expansion or Reinharder cuts trought the infinity foddle paper.

 

[Zabazab]

Forgor, better post Reinhard's most notable combat-specific Blessings:

Blessing of Initiative: He cannot be ambushed, and all initial attacks from Reinhard will connect.
Blessing of First Sight: The first time an attack is performed on Reinhard, he automatically dodges regardless of his awareness of the attack. The Blessing will wake him up even if he's asleep.
Blessing of Second Sight: The second attack and all following attacks cannot hit him, as he automatically dodges them faster than the first time.
Blessing of Arrow Avoidance: Projectiles or long-distance attacks cannot hit him, as they automatically change their trajectory to avoid him.
Blessing of the Phoenix: Upon death, he is granted a "continue" once, reviving from death fully recovered and cleansed of any negative effects. While this Blessing could only be used once and he can't receive the same benefit a second time, he will acquire a new blessing with a similar effect, "Blessing of the Phoenix: Next", and if that Blessing is used, he will acquire "Blessing of the Phoenix: Next Next", and so on endlessly, as the World won't let him die.
Blessing of the Sword Saint: A Blessing which maxes out his talent for Swordsmanship and allows him to draw Reid, the Dragon Sword. It also grants him the ability to see floating white rays of battle, which if he were to merely follow the rays and trace them with his sword, he would unquestionably kill his opponent. The Blessing grants him battle instincts, which are heightened to perfection, and he can see and read the trajectories of his opponent's attacks.
Precognitive Intuition: He has naturally keen senses which, through his intuition, alerts him of danger and distinguishes all attacks in advance, even if invisible or in large numbers. An unconsciously-performed sneak attack can overcome this skill, though his Blessings would normally alert him in such an instance.

Also I am voting Reginald FRA.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Voting for in inconclusive.

Because of the type 2 information manipulation that the cursed energy has (which is used for practically everything gojo has) Reinhard would not go through infinity.

But I also can't see Gojo hitting Reinhard. I'm not sure if any gojo technique has enough AOE to make it impossible for Reinhard to dodge, considering that he has automatic dodge + gets faster.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Voting for in inconclusive.


But I also can't see Gojo hitting Reinhard. I'm not sure if any gojo technique has enough AOE to make it impossible for Reinhard to dodge, considering that he has automatic dodge + gets faster.

Gojo's hollow purple has a range of several kilometers.

Gojo's domain expansion would nullify all those things listed. So the match comes down to if Gojo can DE Reinhard in time, otherwise, yeah this fight just lasts forever lol.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Gojo's hollow purple has a range of several kilometers.

But it's not miles wide. It's a ball that goes forward. So Reinhard could automatically detour + get faster and faster.

Gojo's domain expansion would nullify all those things listed. So the match comes down to if Gojo can DE Reinhard in time, otherwise, yeah this fight just lasts forever lol.

It's not Gojo's first move.

And Reinhard has information analysis (capable of predicting the enemy's future attacks) + Automatic dodge + getting faster and faster with each dodge.

I don't think Gojo will try to go with dominance right from the start, and I don't even know if the domain is big and fast enough for Reinhard to not be able to dodge.

So inconclusive vote.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Forgor, better post Reinhard's most notable combat-specific Blessings:

Blessing of First Sight: The first time an attack is performed on Reinhard, he automatically dodges regardless of his awareness of the attack. The Blessing will wake him up even if he's asleep.
Blessing of Second Sight: The second attack and all following attacks cannot hit him, as he automatically dodges them faster than the first time.
Blessing of Arrow Avoidance: Projectiles or long-distance attacks cannot hit him, as they automatically change their trajectory to avoid him.

We kinda discuss this on the last thread, but when Gojo-Chan uses his domain:

• Limited Law Manipulation: Within the domain, the owner creates guaranteed hit attacks as part of the rules of the domain. Domain users can alter the conditions of their domain.
• Homing Attack: The user's attacks are guaranteed to hit.

Is not In-Character for to be his first move, so ok.

Blessing of the Phoenix: Upon death, he is granted a "continue" once, reviving from death fully recovered and cleansed of any negative effects. While this Blessing could only be used once and he can't receive the same benefit a second time, he will acquire a new blessing with a similar effect, "Blessing of the Phoenix: Next", and if that Blessing is used, he will acquire "Blessing of the Phoenix: Next Next", and so on endlessly, as the World won't let him die.

Really is not a factor here, because Gojo only way to kill Reid is Hollow Purple, which neggs his immortaly anyway. I think.
I don't think Gojo can kill Rein in any other way.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

But it's not miles wide. It's a ball that goes forward. So Reinhard could automatically detour + get faster and faster.

Well gojo has different versions. Vs Hanami it was only a few meters wide, Vs Sukuna (although he was amped) it was about a city block wide, and with his final version it was an omni-directional blast that neither Makora or Sukuna could dodge.

I don't know enough about Reinhard's dodge to say how it would fair though.

It's not Gojo's first move.

I agree.

And Reinhard has information analysis (capable of predicting the enemy's future attacks) + Automatic dodge + getting faster and faster with each dodge.

Can he analyze cursed energy?

I also don't know that the blessings would be capable of bypassing his math manip with blue and red given they involve manifesting impossibilities to effect reality. I imagine it'd be hard to analyze such and in the opposite direction, Gojo can analyze all of his stuff, meaning he is much more likely to pull out DE sooner than later once he sees how OP Reinhard is.

I don't think Gojo will try to go with dominance right from the start, and I don't even know if the dominance is big enough for Reinhard not to be able to dodge.

I think Gojo would change his gameplan up once he realized he's fighting another hax king, remember Gojo also has 6 eyes which can break down energy, matter, techniques, and even something like growth potential.

So inconclusive vote.

I respect your outlook.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Voting for reinhard