Saikou's Circus of the Disquieting: Undertale Edition

[Overlord775]

Why would he just go along with it when he didn't in the other tasks she told him to do ?

and that's headcanon

 

[Theglassman12]

@Saikou yeah, which again means he wasn't weakened enough at the start of the fight.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Overlord

He did though. He went through everything she said. Frisk just didn't hit the tomato hard enough for your standards.

No it's not. It's specifically about how the attacks hurt other. Not about how strong the attacks are by themselves.

@Glass No it doesn't.

Are just unable to accept the fact that there is some gradient to this shit? It's not "Asgore is slightly willing to kill so he instantly one shots Frisk", not "Asgore is slightly relunctant so he gets instantly one shot".

 

[Theglassman12]

I wasn't referring to Asgore oneshotting Frisk. I was referring to Frisk oneshotting Asgore. Also is there or is there not betrayal oneshots that can happen in the pacifist route where you oneshot someone while LV 1?

 

[Overlord775]

@Overlord
No it's not. It's specifically about how the attacks hurt other. Not about how strong the attacks are by themselves.

Show me proof, because the Snowdin books say just that they get weaker iirc

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Tbh in terms of the Determination thing, I think you already combatted your own point well enough. Determination clearly gave Undyne more power that allowed her to achieve a greater form. Thats clearly stat boosting, and gives an explanation for the major fluctuations of Frisk's power.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Homestuck

No it doesn't. We can't assume that a very specific transformation under specific circumstances means that another character has boosts under wildly different circumstances and without anything hinting towards it.

@Glass

Look I don't even know what you're saying anymore. Point is, Frisk has enough desire to kill to not die, but not so much that he one shots Asgore.

@Overlord

Sans specifically says that desire to kill makes your attack hurt more, and makes the enemies attack hurt less. It doesn't say that the enemies themselves become physically weaker when doing other shit.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

No it doesn't. We can't assume that a very specific transformation under specific circumstances means that another character has boosts under wildly different circumstances and without anything hinting towards it.

Except we already know it was caused by Determination, which is why she ends up melting as a result. Even then, the explanation of Frisk's stats fluctuating based on Determination makes it so much more obvious as to how Muffet or Asgore can be a threat, while Frisk can tank an attack from Asriel with the power of 6 human souls and all the monster souls. At least, it makes far more sense than trying to assume that every monster was fodder comparatively to Frisk, when that logically isnt the case based on the fact that a big theme of the game is you dying and using Saves to come back.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It being caused by DT doesn't mean that Frisk has it each time they fight someone. Especially since, again it's never shown to happen. Ever.

Also no it doesn't. It's not supported by anything. It's head canon. Meanwhile monster weakness is a thoroughly explained thing that's a huge part of the verse. DT's purpose was always to help the user survive, not to give stats boost.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

It being caused by DT doesn't mean that Frisk has it each time they fight someone. Especially since, again it's never shown to happen. Ever.

Also no it doesn't. It's not supported by anything. It's head canon. Meanwhile monster weakness is a thoroughly explained thing that's a huge part of the verse. DT's purpose was always to help the user survive, not to give stats boost.

Im not saying Frisk transforms like Undyne, but you cant realistically look at Undyne amping herself with determination to fight you in a stronger form and act like that doesnt at least imply some effect on stats.

You also have yet to give a rebuttal for the fact that Asgore and Muffet can be threats to Frisk even while theyre capable of surviving attacks from Asriel who does far worse.

Nothing may ever outright say that determination gives a stat boost, but theres plenty of implications to go off of that back this up.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This effect on stats has only beens shown with Undying. Frisk doesn't do anything similar to it.

Have you not been reading the thread at all. Frisk takes hits from Asriel due to monsters' weakness of their powers being affected by intent. Effectively, Asriel's attacks gets reduced to being unable to kill Frisk properly due to this. Same as Asgore or Muffet.

It takes far less assumption than assuming that Frisk does this stats boost thing that's only been shown once in literally every fight ever that isn't against a Froggit.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

This effect on stats has only beens shown with Undying. Frisk doesn't do anything similar to it.

Have you not been reading the thread at all. Frisk takes hits from Asriel due to monsters' weakness of their powers being affected by intent. Effectively, Asriel's attacks gets reduced to being unable to kill Frisk properly due to this. Same as Asgore or Muffet.

It takes far less assumption than assuming that Frisk does this stats boost thing that's only been shown once in literally every fight ever that isn't against a Froggit.

Frisk goes from fighting Asgore one second to fighting Omega Flowey the next. That's clear evidence in my honest opinion.

Thats also ridiculous, when Frisk can survive Asriel purging the entire timeline around them. Somehow it just magically does less damage to Frisk as opposed to literally every human or monster in the universe, who is logically dead, because of intent? Meanwhile Asriel had cruel intent yet still couldnt be remotely harmed by Frisk should you choose to attack him. Gee, it sure would help if there was a fluctuating power for Frisk to have that implies boosts for stats. Oh wait, there is.

Or, you can assume that Frisk is far less determined in a fight against weaker monsters for a variety of reasons. More stakes obviously makes Frisk more determined, as shown during the fight against Asgore, which purposefully decides to point out that you're full of determination.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Also to add onto this, I've heard nothing about cruel intent limiting power, so what does that say about Frisk surviving attacks from Omega Flowey who under no circumstances was anything but cruel.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Saikou I'm saying Frisk should be 9-A from Asgore by beating him without the weakened oneshot move that's a weakness in every monster.

 

[Overlord775]

@Overlord

Sans specifically says that desire to kill makes your attack hurt more, and makes the enemies attack hurt less. It doesn't say that the enemies themselves become physically weaker when doing other shit.

That doesn't even say that the monster become weaker, but that Frisk becomes stronger.

 

[RinneItachi]

I know this doesn't contribute much to the discussion, but I completely agree with Homestuck here.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

...Welp, I've got nothing better to do. Time to debunk this mess.

Strength is consistently shown to be boosted by Determination. It's how Frisk was able to beat Asgore despite the massive power difference between Asgore and Undyne (who Frisk struggled against earlier in the story), how Frisk was able to stand up to Photoshop Flowey after her friends cheered her on, and how Undyne (another Determination user) was able to defeat Toriel despite much weaker physicals. If this were not the case, Frisk would not have even been able to withstand BASE Asriel's attacks, who is so strong his ATK and DEF can only be quantified as infinity symbols.


Are you seriously telling me that Frisk has killing intent... in the Pacifist Route? The literal route where Frisk pulls her punches because she doesn't want to hurt people?

You're literally lying at this point. Sans never says that distancing yourself emotionally is the reason why you take less damage. In fact he says (with a double meaning) that LOVE increases your capacity to hurt. Not to mention, you know, your STATs literally increasing due to LOVE.


- Frisk falling down the mountain isn't a feat we use anywhere on our profiles. Even then, Chara was left disoriented by the same fall.

- Neither is this. In fact it's literally opened by the solution of a puzzle, why would we put that on a respect thread, much less a profile?

- Except said ice and snow comes from Snowdin, which is considered comically cold to the point where Undyne finds it cold. Also, plants can only exist on the outskirts of Hotland, at the MTT Resort near the CORE. Water exists there too, unlike where Frisk's cup evaporated, so why not plants? Even if these weren't the case, Hotland is much, MUCH hotter than MTT-Brand Ovens, which go up to 9000 degrees fahrenheit.

- So you admit you can't debunk the oven feat. And are you seriously telling me that Frisk is 9-B yet is capable of killing Undyne, who is 9-A? I suppose that's somehow an "outlier" too?


Sans never said once that each LOAD creates a new timeline while all the other ones still exist at the same time.

Except Chara didn't come back from nothing. She was resurrected by Frisk's Determination after she fell into the Underground. Flowey mentions this in the Genocide Route.

Finally something I agree on. But there's so much stuff wrong here it may as well be on a different post.

...What? "Flowey can nearly instakill someone who can fight and kill 9-As with ease... Street level!" You're seriously tumbling over your own argument here. LOVE literally increases your STATs in the game.

...Apparently the person who destroys timelines is stronger than the person who controls the entire game, according to you. In fact Flowey literally mentioned that Photoshop Flowey is stronger than Chara, who according to you never got stronger.

Oh yes, apparently now Photoshop Flowey taunted Frisk by... lowering his own durability? It counts as a feat because no-selling is a thing in the verse, this is literal headcanon.

...What? Asriel is now nowhere close to Chara? Chara can't even hurt Frisk while Asriel can potentially kill her.

"Asriel is 10-C via bloodlust" What the f... *Sigh* That's weird, because earlier you stated that monsters on the Pacifist Route were subject to Frisk's "killing intent" even then, yet Frisk wasn't even hurting Asriel with her attacks.

Wrong again. It was stated that a Monster/human SOUL fusion was capable of wiping out an entire village of humans; it would take 7 Human SOULs to wipe out humanity. Also it is literally nowhere stated that monsters not wanting to fight lowers their Durability. Papyrus's STATs change depending on how much he wants to fight, but this is not the case for anyone else; not Toriel, not Shyren, not Asgore, not even people fearing for their lives. Asriel is not Papyrus.


Except upscaling is not the reason we now have Supersonic+ people. We have Supersonic+ people because of this revision thread.

"Frisk couldn't properly react to Greater Dog's sound." Proof? I can react to him just fine.

The Annoying Dog is also omipresent due to still being able to move in the game's void and being a multiversal constant in the game's coding itself. Not just because he "survived the multiverse being destroyed".


Their Lifting Strength is due to being superior to other Monsters.

Yes the **** it is. Sans's Durability Negation works because the opponent is hurt regardless of their Durability, it's not tredecillions of 10-C hits chipping at a Multiversal opponent's health. Yes, Sans fights Chara, which you fail to mention.

How the hell is that "new hax"? What possibly would that give him, even if you were correct?

"Sans stops time because he never takes his turn." ...What...?

It actually IS possible. After all, you dodged during their turn. Heck, Undyne even moved to protect Monster Kid from Chara during "your turn" much earlier in Genocide.

I'd actually call it something like Mind Manipulation, since Sans is technically attacking you depending on what choices you want to make. Kinda like Tumblr.


In short, these requests are absurd and your claims will need to be HEAVILY revised before we can even consider including them to the wiki.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Super Ascended

>STATS are litteraly increasing. Except that it only reflect how Frisk is against monsters, also if Frisk being able to damage monster was by pure stats, how do you explain that lv 19 Frisk can't one shot Asgore like lv20 can? The difference isn't a massive one


>Undyne find Snowdin cold And? Undyne never was specifically resistance to cold


>"Frisk being able to kill someone higher and being killed by someone weaker doesn't makes sense You're ignoring the whole point about emotions and monsters.


>Flowey said Photoshop Flowey is stronger than Chara To rephrase your argument: "A character said that this form is stronger than a 2-B form of Chara he doesn't even know". Not to mention Chara's corruption/control over the Multiverse continue after a True Reset and work even in Pacifist and Neutral, something both Photoshop and Asriel can't.


>Chara can't even hurt Frisk. Never fought Frisk at all. It's just your headcanon.


>"stated nowhere that monsters not wanting to fight lower their durability" It's a blatant lie or just you not playing the game entirely. It's stated in Snowdin's library and shown for EVERY monster (betrayal kill, Papyrus and his stats, Asgore stats being lowered when you eat Toriel's pie, Snowdrake's ridiculously weak mom, etc...).


>Sans fights Chara. No. He fights Geno-Frisk only, with only the killing blow possibly being thanks to Chara's possession. Chara being the one fighting is just a common headcanon.

In short, you ignored the main point of the revision (emotions stuff) and pulled headcanon for most of your comment

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Because of Chara's possession. LOVE isn't the only reason why Frisk is so strong in Genocide. In fact, according to the guy you're trying to defend, LOVE apparently isn't a stat booster either.


Yes, but she has insane resistance to temperatures, like the time she no-sold the explosion of a 9000 degree ove that exploded specifically due to overloading via turning it up too high.


Frisk can kill these opponents even when she's not bloodlusted. The author erroneously believes that Frisk killing = automatically bloodlusted no matter what.


Actually, he did know that form, because he knew, and was correct about, exactly how Chara came back to life and what she was then doing. Also, Chara isn't affected by the True Reset because she doesn't entirely exist within the timeline.


Really? Remember what happened when Chara attacked the game itself, destroying it completely? Frisk hardly flinched. In fact Chara was only able to get her to do anything through extortion.


It IS stated in the Librarby, but not expanded on nor even mentioned to involve STATs. Betrayal kills happen because the monster wasn't expecting it, they don't suddenly completely lack the want to fight. I already talked about Papyrus. He's the only guy in the game whose STATs are actually affected, which is more of an ability on his end than anything else. Yet Asgore's actual STATs remain the same, it doesn't say to what degree he was affected, and he wasn't even affected this way because he didn't want to fight, it was because of Toriel. I can't believe I even have to say this, but Snowdrake's Mom's STATs are not so low because she didn't want to fight. Her STATs were so low because she was an abomination. In fact all the other Amalgamates were eager to fight Frisk.


It's also completely viable since it was directly shown that Frisk was fully possessed by Chara earlier in New Home, and Chara was the reason Frisk was able to defeat Undyne the Undying. Hell, even during the fight Sans mentioned that just Chara's presence was causing timelines to stop and start, and move left and right, and that she was consuming entire timelines.


In short, you're defending someone who REALLY doesn't deserve it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

You're confusing Frisk, Chara and The Player.

Frisk is the one who do all of the things which aren't done by the player, and Chara is the one who make them do the actions that the player didn't decided.

Chara's only 2-B in Genocide, and Flowey can't remember this route. In Nwutral he doesn't even know thst Frisk and Chara are 2 different person, so your argument makes no sense.

Chara didn't talked to Frisk at the end of Genocide but to The Player, Pacifist Route shows that Frisk snd The Player are 2 different beings, with only the player having it.

Also LOVE isn't a stats like RPG treats it in general, and I showed that your "because of possession" doean't makes sense. For emotions, your argument also don't counter mine: Being an amalgamate doesn't necessary makes you weak, Snowdrake's mom is this low because she's depressed. Also, Asgore thinking about Toriel=he regrets what he do=less willing to fight. Ignoring this further just shows that you makes headcanon more important thsn facts.

There's no mention of Chara "not entirely existing".

Saying that Chara is the reason for Undyne's defeat is am headcanon, same for New Home since Flowey is shown to mistake the two, also see what I sais before.

And finally,Sans' explanation is for "The Anomaly" aka the player.

I'm not really defending him btw, it's just that I don't like too many bullshit (srry if I sound rude) in a single answer

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

"-Frisk gets downgraded to 10-C."

You mean the kid that can take knife to the face,Multiple attacks from a Bloodlusted Undyne,Mad Dummy and Amalgamate, Papyrus's giant bone,Muffet's pet, Undyne's house going BOMB (which isn't an outliar, as there's nothing that Damaged Frisk and was weaker than it) and more, do you think that's 10-C? And if you didn't know, his ATK Stat is equal to his Def, so you can't call him a stone wall, the only time where he has more ATK then Def is when he gains lots of LOVE, which proves that LOVE does indeed make you stronger, this same Frisk beat Asgore in a fight,this Asgore wasn't supressed, all you need to do is check his stats to know that.


why did you use Undyne's ATK stat instead of her Def stat? She tanked the Bomb, it's Def not Atk

Also, can you explain how Frisk, who by your logic can't get stronger and is only 10-C, survived a point blank Timeline busting attack and survived and was able to scratch and damage Omega Flowey? Those aren't outliars but Undyne's house exploding is?


a human soul is as strong as every monster soul and Their strength is their only weakness, so The weaker beings being a Tier above the stronger beings makes no sense.

Asriel's final form should be 2-B for destroying the World, and the Multiverse is the only world we can use as he already destroyed the Timeline they were fighting in.

I disagree with All the Sans Stuff FRA

Also Geno Frisk was stated to be a threat to both Monsters and Humans and would have destroyed them all as stated by both Mettaton and Undyne, who think Humans are these beasts, and even a single human is as strong as every monster combined, I have doubt that someone 10-C would be that.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Id agree with everything but Frisk's 10-C downgrade. Hes survived far worse than that, stated by Adam above that I was going to say.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This shows that Humans are indeed stronger than Monsters, by a pretty large margin.

Also I think Undyne and the others are above Subsonic+, as Frisk couldn't even react to her spear throw (but then he latter could because he got faster), so she and the High tier should be Supersonic or higher if you're sans.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

But Frisk could react to her spear throw. The one time she couldn't was when she was off guard.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

But Frisk could react to her spear throw. The one time she couldn't was when she was off guard.

Does Frisk get slower when off guard? I just thought she Got faster because of Determination (The spear throws were almost instantaneous when she had close to zero Determination but when she had More DT she saw the Spears as if they were slow) but I guess being off Guard makes sense

 

[Magi_Hussie]

From what I noticed in Sans final attack, when he uses his magical eye, it doesn't appear to be a form of time stop (because if he is, then you wouldn't be able to move at all once it activates the first time until he eventually falls sleep. So Sans really must have been constantly teleporting Frisk back to the same spot to prevent them from trying anything that will lead to his defeat.

The things we currently know what Sans magical eye does:

• Soul Magic (which he uses to increase the gravity of his opponents and he needs to use this first in order to use telekinesis on them)
• Remote Teleportation

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Does Frisk get slower when off guard? I just thought she Got faster because of Determination (The spear throws were almost instantaneous when she had close to zero Determination but when she had More DT she saw the Spears as if they were slow) but I guess being off Guard makes sense

Everybody gets slower when off guard so

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also is Mettaton considered a monster? As he's just a ghost that lives inside a metal Body, as Geno Frisk was able to casually one shot him even while holding back.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

No. He booms, not dusts.

Also, Genocide Frisk/ Chara wasn't actually holding back since presumably they thought it would be similar to Undyne the Undying.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

@YuriAkuto

Even if the Player was real, what does he have to do with this?

Yes, Flowey knew of Chara possessing Frisk in Genocide. And yes he did, Flowey wouldn't have even attacked Frisk if he thought they were the same person.

So you mean to tell me that the second Chara appeared, Frisk instantly no longer existed? Some might argue that the person Chara talks to after the slash is you, the player, but again that makes zero sense as she refers to the person she's talking to as her "partner" before AND after the game crash, and she asks for the person's SOUL, which people in real life do not have and which Frisk famously has. And how does the Pacifist Route show that the Player EXISTS, much less is different from Frisk?

LOVE is exactly like levelling up in an RPG, and you didn't prove anything. An unpossessed Frisk would need more DT than she even fought Asgore with in order to actually fight Undyne the Undying properly.

Yeah, but Snowdrake's Mom isn't like the other Amalgamates, she's more of an abomination than the others, and her STATs didn't increase once Frisk saved her and she was happy. Asgore wasn't regretting what he had to do in that moment, he was sad because he missed Toriel.

Sorry, here I actually misspoke. I meant "Chara doesn't exist entirely within the timeline."

But Flowey has never mistaken the two. Asriel had the two mixed up during his fight, and only during the fight. As Flowey he never made that mistake.

Sans was explicitly talking about Chara during that scene.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I was talking about how when you don't kill everyone in Hotland and the Core, you one shot Mettaton Neo while Holding back, and Geno Frisk should be stronger than this Failed Geno Frisk.

And about Papyrus's Giant Bone attack, should I use Frisk's speed to the Attack? Because if I do it ends up Somewhere around The Undyne House feat.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Oh, then yes. Frisk was not giving it their all, BUT she did mean to kill him.

How would scaling matter for the giant bone attack?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well If he isn't a monster and is just a metal vessel then killing intent shouldn't effect him, unless killing intent poweres up The AP instead of making the monster opponent weaker.

For its KE,If it was Subsonic+, it would be around the Undyne House feat, which would show how it's consistent.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I got a counter argument about the Killing intent stuff, I think it makes Frisk stronger, and it doesn't make the monsters weak.

I think everyone knows what happened before the Undyne the Undying fight, Undyne gets in front of Monster kid to protect him and gets cut in half in the process.

So why does this prove what I claimed? It does because not only was Undyne cut in half, but her Armor was also cut in half.

Where If you have less killer intent, a.k.a spare monster kid,you can't even crack it, and No her armor isn't a part of her body and wouldn't get weaker with her, as we see her without her armor, and it disappearing is the same with Papyrus's battle body, which isn't a part of his body but still turns to dust when he dies.

And No it isn't made from Magic, as it is likely made from similar material to The Royal Guard weapons, which is made of Granite.

Papyrus doesn't contradict this as I don't disagree with Monsters getting depowered when they don't want to Fight and spare you is shown multiple time in the Game with Betrayal kills and it doesn't disprove Killing intent being a power increase.

There's also Mettaton Neo, who is Vessel made of Metal,and him being posseded by a ghost doesn't change anything, as when Ghosts turn corporeal with their bodies they get it's durability, this is shown with Glad Dummy.

And The dust sounds doesn't make him a Monster as even destroying a Dummy makes that sound.

And Yet Killing intent made Geno Frisk do more than 3 Time the Atk amount when he didn't have that much killing intent.

So Killing intent like LOVE is a power increase.

 

[Andytrenom]

Wow i missed this

Yeah it's strange to have been ignoring the LV thing and bloodlust weakening monsters, which have been pretty explicitly explained in the game. That part of the revision makes sense to me

As for the upscaling in speed, I believe it's because certain attacks move instantly in comparison to greater dog's bark (Gaster blasters, Asgore's trident, mettaton's shock etc) on top of transonic being a miniscule tier. I did put forward this argument for upscaling but I don't think I agreed to supersonic+ per say. Supersonic or transonic should be enough

It's getting late here so I'll comment on the rest tomorrow

 

[Andytrenom]

Chara

I agree with solid 2-B but disagree with abstract existence. The way she words the statement could easily mean she was behind the the feeling of the player's stat increasing, not that she embodied the abstract feeling. Also even if AE was possible, type 2 is certainly not on table, being a literal feeling is type 1 and regenerating indefinitely via a concept is type 2, the types are separated by nature not potency

Flowey and Asriel

I agree with both being "low 2-C possibly/likely 2-C". As for PhotoFlowey, I'm not sure if listing a 10-B or something stat is necessary, it would definitely have to be mentioned on weaknesses tho

Similarly I don't know if Asriel needs to have his stats when weakened listed. That happened under specific circumstances and may not be relevant in most battles.

Sans

Don't have an opinion on the chip damage stuff for now but as for the time stop, i think it's too much of a stretch. The turn based system just seems like a game mechanic he can ignore, as opposed to having this elaborate explanation that he dodges attacks by interacting with time itself

Also the speed stat doesn't exist in Undertale, so him having low stats shouldn't preclude him from being faster than other characters, since that could just extend to attack defense and HP

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Honestly this post would need quite a makeover before we actually change anything.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Again, I'd like to ask why Omega Flowey scales to his save and load abilities. Physically, that is.

He is never shown to be that strong through any feats or even statements with his normal attacks, and save and load obviously doesn't scale to normal attacks.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Again, I'd like to ask why Omega Flowey scales to his save and load abilities. Physically, that is.
He is never shown to be that strong through any feats or even statements with his normal attacks, and save and load obviously doesn't scale to normal attacks.

It's probably him physically destroying your Save file

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Bump?