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Rule Violation Reports (New forum)

Lonkitt said:
Again. When we have knowledge of them acting like this, do we really want them on our site if we would ban them for doing the same stuff here? It’s like if I said “hey guys, you can’t be here if you’re racist. Oh but if you’re racist when we’re not looking, it’s fine”
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Yes, because the rules of the site are just that, for the site, you should not be policing offsite behavior using the same rules as the site, it's illogical. If you'd ban someone for behaving a certain way on site then ban them for behaving that way on site, if they're off site, the same standards as on site don't apply

For instance you get banned for posting pornography on the site, if you post it on discord, should you be banned then? To uphold the same on site standards as you're proposing?
 
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Darksmash said:
Well the difference is that degeneracy related to "cunnies" or "rape correction" are long running memes in weeb communities (literally join any anime/manga/VN related server and search these terms up). They are the weeb equivalent of dark humour like using the n word jokingly.
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I don't care if they're running memes in weeb communities, it just further explain why weeb communities are looked down on so much
 
To make myself clear
I am in no way saying these things should be tolerated. I am just aware that discord is a cesspool of ironic humour and most people don't actually mean what they say. This kind of standard will likely get a lot of genuinely good users banned who don't actually believe in anything they say.
 
Deagonx said:
Should I just start removing the non-staff comments that don't offer new information?
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I think that's fair otherwise this topic will fill up a whole new page.

To everyone:

No more non-staff comments beyond this point about this current topic unless specifically bringing up new evidence.
 
Lonkitt said:
Not a great example since discord doesn’t like people doing that either
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But it happens all the time, and I think you sort of dodged his point. Which rules can be punished for being broken off-site, and which ones cannot?
 
Darksmash said:
To make myself clear
I am in no way saying these things should be tolerated. I am just aware that discord is a cesspool of ironic humour and most people don't actually mean what they say. This kind of standard will likely get a lot of genuinely good users banned who don't actually believe in anything they say.
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Clearly Chase isn’t a genuinely good user
 
Someone using a slur for shock value or whatever isn’t remotely the same as actively maligning another for their ethnicity or consistently discussing child ****. Not that it's OK in excess whatsoever but like, the above screenshot ain't it.

I've used the N word before on Discord. I'm black but even assuming I wasn't, I wouldn't consider jokingly testing Discord's policy on it to mean I actively hate an entire race.

I'm using slurs as an example but it applies generally to what would be considered dark humour or jokes done in poor taste.

I do agree that excessive repugnant behaviour should have a line drawn against it being tolerated. But let's not get too trigger happy whenever we see something like it and actually discuss the boundaries and our policies on it.
 
Where the line is drawn is more so whether or not they're legitimately hurting other users or the community. Simply saying out of context slur words offsite or behind people's backs or in a casual context is not ban worthy. If they are harassing a user to their face using those words is a different story. Same with sexual fetishes, if they are just casually talking about them or pretending to be in to them, or if the ones they're into aren't illegal sure. But if they're legit express it or forcing their fetishes on other people or spamming it on places that don't allow those types of topics it's also a different story.

Also, again, this topic has been dragged on for too long. Let's wait for more higher up staff to comment their thoughts and Chase at least deserves a chance to defend himself if he doesn't take too long.
 
Darksmash said:
From a quick search here's some stuff from recently promoted moderator crabwhale. (Nothing against the guy btw. Very chill and fun. This is just to make a point on why using discord stuff is bad)
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You should preferably upload those to an Imgur since posting them straight up on site isn't exactly the best idea if you're gonna drag 'em out.

Anyway, I won't excuse myself, but I will say everytime that word was used, it was specifically used with nothing but pasty white dudes in the vicinity. Of which:
First screenshot is in reference to how another user speaks. And he really does speak like that.
Third was in reference to some racist meme about Neko Arc.
Fifth was responding to someone who calls me that himself frequently.
And sixth was in reference to that one Frieza meme about him getting a blacker form (you know the one with the "I hate the thing/becomes the thing" template).

Not an excuse, again, just clarification.
 
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Planck69 said:
I do agree that excessive repugnant behaviour should have a line drawn against it being tolerated
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Intuitively, I also agree, but I think this debacle is kind of an example of why -- generally speaking -- the default should be "don't bring up off-site behavior here unless it's immediately relevant to the wiki" because the content is so emotionally provocative and inflammatory that the discussion about it becomes so extremely volatile.

Lonkitt said:
I’m pretty sure I’m justified in saying pedophilic, homophobic, transphobic, racist behaviour, etc. shouldn’t be tolerated
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Lonkitt, I do not understand why every attempt I have made to actually discuss the matter at hand has been responded to with this bad-faith retreat to the general principle of the matter, as if you and I are not on the same page about whether this behavior is acceptable. We are attempting to have a discussion about site policy regarding off-site behavior, not about the morality of saying the n-word or any of the other gross things quoted in those images. Are you capable of discussing that without virtue signalling even more on the subject, or should we just have the discussion without you?
 
Formerly being "harassed" by Chase here. However, that happened way back from 2021, and he has changed. And i MEANT it. Chase directly apologized to me and right now, I have become friend with him. Chase is pretty cool because he helped me with Japanese stuffs a lot.

Anyway, I disagree with banning Chase just because he made shitload of perverted comments in Discord. What happened in Discord is NOT related with the rules in VBW, because Chase didn't violate anything here. Not to mention, that Discord server is from another VS Forum. Isn't this the same as banning a user just because he did something you didn't like in another place? Whatever the **** happened in AFBW is not VBW's business, and vice versa. If Chase actually violated any rule over there, then the staffs from that respective site will deal with him, not by the hands of VBW's staffs.
 
Darksmash said:
screenshots
Click to expand...
Just here to say that I, as a black man, have given him the N Word pass and do not care about any of this.

Okay but seriously (not that I was lying about my comment before but) we have had this discussion before, fairly sure, and came to the conclusion that discord stuff should only be used if it's interfearing with wiki business. I think anyway.

Not like this screenshot wave even helps anyone, I know Crab and the dude isn't a racist lol.
 
For the record, I think that a permanent ban for Chase is warranted here and that we should stop spamming this thread and causing damaging division in our community about the subject.

I also think that Crabwhale is African-American though, but even so, I would advice him to make a much greater effort to better represent our community in the future. The n-word is still in very bad taste even from black people.
 
Deagonx said:
Lonkitt, I do not understand why every attempt I have made to actually discuss the matter at hand has been responded to with this bad-faith retreat to the general principle of the matter, as if you and I are not on the same page about whether this behavior is acceptable. We are attempting to have a discussion about site policy regarding off-site behavior, not about the morality of saying the n-word or any of the other gross things quoted in those images. Are you capable of discussing that without virtue signalling even more on the subject, or should we just have the discussion without you?
Click to expand...
Okay first off all, didn’t need you to try and talk down to me like that. I’m not a child

Second of all, I’m saying that somebody sharing **** on discord (assuming it’s legal) isn’t on the same level as expressing racist and pedophilic behaviour. We don’t share **** on this site for very different reasons. Nobody trying to figure out how strong Goku is needs a link to people engaging in sexual acts, it’s pretty obvious
 
Antvasima said:
I also think that Crabwhale is African-American though, but even so, I would advice him to make a much greater effort to better represent our community in the future.
Click to expand...
He's Albanian, but even then, he has a fuckton of black friends who genuinely just don't give a **** about it. In the end, it's our personal business, not really fit for wiki discussion.
 
I think we need to have a separate discussion that has nothing to do with Chase or any of these screenshots about where exactly we draw the line with off-site remarks, so that the policy can be referred to unemotionally and discussions about off-site behavior are not turned into a tribunal about morality. Or where -- in absentia of any clear policy -- people use their emotional response to certain behavior as a compass for whether or not it's bannable, which is just a mess.

CrimsonStarFallen said:
In the end, it's our personal business, not really fit for wiki discussion.
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This is my opinion on the matter as well.
 
Lonkitt said:
Second of all, I’m saying that somebody sharing **** on discord (assuming it’s legal) isn’t on the same level as expressing racist and pedophilic behaviour. We don’t share **** on this site for very different reasons. Nobody trying to figure out how strong Goku is needs a link to people engaging in sexual acts, it’s pretty obvious
Click to expand...
Sure, my question is: Which on-site rules can be punished for being broken off-site, and why?
 
Deagonx said:
Sure, my question is: Which on-site rules can be punished for being broken off-site, and why?
Click to expand...
Deagonx

This isn’t a discussion about revising the rules

This is getting way off topic, and while we could certainly continue this discussion on a new thread, my ultimate point is that Chase should get the permaban
 
Lonkitt said:
This isn’t a discussion about revising the rules
Click to expand...
Okay, then it's a discussion about what the rules are. What are the existing off-site behavior guidelines through which we are determining whether or not to ban chase?
 
Lonkitt said:
Deagonx

This isn’t a discussion about revising the rules

This is getting way off topic, and while we could certainly continue this discussion on a new thread, my ultimate point is that Chase should get the permaban
Click to expand...
I mean
You kinda have to decide about that if you want to permaban someone for off-site behavoir, especially when there's a clear divide on the matter
 
Tllmbrg said:
I mean
You kinda have to decide about that if you want to permaban someone for off-site behavoir, especially when there's a clear divide on the matter
Click to expand...
A clear divide that I’m surprised beyond belief exists

Since when did users creepily talking about sexually assaulting young girls and acting racist warrant a defence squad?
 
Lonkitt said:
A clear divide that I’m surprised beyond belief exists

Since when did users creepily talking about sexually assaulting young girls and acting racist warrant a defence squad?
Click to expand...
I personally strongly agree with you, but it seems like we need to revise our site rules for off-site behaviour in this regard.
 
Lonkitt said:
Since when did users creepily talking about sexually assaulting young girls and acting racist warrant a defence squad?
Click to expand...
It's not about defending his behavior, it's about determining whether or not off-site behavior like that should be discussed by VSBW mods in the first place. It's not about all of us discussing what we think of him as a person, and then banning him if the consensus is that he's a bad person for saying those things.
 
Tllmbrg said:
Idk what to tell you, by the rules we currently have written that is just not covered
Click to expand...
I agree, reading the offsite rules nothing like this is covered. So we should stop this conversation about Chase, at least for the time being, and a separate discussion (hopefully with cooler heads) should be had about whether nor not we should revise the rules to encompass this sort of thing, and then perhaps revisit the issue if that decision is made.

Given the volatility of this discussion, it's best if we don't keep fanning the flames and going in circles about this.
 
After reading some of the above material: My take is, personally, nobody should be permanently banned from the site for something they did off-site. The entire point of banning is to rid the community of people who come to the site with intent to harm or actively want to destroy it by miscellaneous means.

If we ban someone because they did something that was not only completely unreleated to the wiki, but didn't even take place on the site at all, then not only are we going against the policies we already have written (which to my knowledge don't mention this; correct me if i missed them), but we're punishing someone for not breaking the rules and misusing the correct use of banning or just punishing users in general.

It sets a precedent that forces all users to behave around their friends on other social sites as though they were on the wiki.
 
Antvasima said:
I also think that Crabwhale is African-American though,
Click to expand...
My most profound apologies, serious situation and all, but this ******* comment sent me into the stratosphere.

Anyway I think I should clarify that my stance on this subject from earlier is still the same, even in regards to myself. I don't use that word often, and when I do, it's always directed at someone who isn't part of the minority group in question, and it is always against someone who I know doesn't have a problem with it.

Again, that doesn't excuse my behavior. But the way that some of the Discord servers I inhabit are organized, it has never been brought up as an issue, and so I never treated it as one. The targets of moderation in said servers have mostly amounted to actual harassment, not banning immature and edgy humor that everyone is more-or-less in on. This was a thing before I even became a mod, though we're talking about ancient, nearly forgotten ages at that point.

I should also point out that, under the current rules regarding off-site behavior, I haven't done anything actually punishment-worthy. If I'm to be punished anyway, so be it, but first someone will have to devise a new set of guidelines regarding this sort of thing, and then get approval to implement.
 
Crabwhale said:
I should also point out that, under the current rules regarding off-site behavior, I haven't done anything actually punishment-worthy. If I'm to be punished anyway, so be it, but first someone will have to devise a new set of guidelines regarding this sort of thing, and then get approval to implement.
Click to expand...
Damage3245 said:
nothing Crabwhale has done has broken any site rules.
Click to expand...
That's sort of the headline here, and I believe that was Darksmash's point in bringing it up in the first place. Our site rules don't cover this, no more for Crabwhale than for Chase, and while the two are of a distinctly different character, the commonality is that it's offsite discord behavior that isn't currently addressed by any of our rules. So it's not about the moral assessment that it's awful to make r--- jokes or to use slurs in an ironic context, but whether or not our rules address this or if they should address it.

The problem is that this is getting mixed up with discussions of morality, as if the decision that it isn't the wiki's business is simultaneously a form of tacit moral approval of the behavior in question. That's just not the case. Discussions about what is right/wrong, and discussions about how we should run the forum, are entirely separate matters.
 
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