Rukia vs Hitsugaya

[Icezer00]

Your reason to Hitsugaya having no resistance to cold is like saying Kuzan from one piece who can transform himself into ice form has no resistance to cold because he never fought another ice character To prove that he has resistance when we know full well he can become the element Itself. But Zorro gonna have resistance to the cold better than Kuzan because he fought Monet in the cold

If all Rukia really needs to beat hitsugaya is absolute zero then who can beat her since every sentence is AZ freeze which wasn't the case the first time when base as-nodt manage to break out lol from what we seen so far she has a major flaw with her bankai ability, which hitsugaya can create a ice clone to get hit by her ability and it is game over for her.

I rather bet for guy with Many arsenal options of weapons then the girl with one deadly ability that has a 50/50 chance

 

[Naeblis495]

Those are clearly instances of self harming bankai in exchange for power . It is specific to them , not a generality . And it is clearly stated in all cases that there is some kind of self inflicted damage that they have to bear/resist . Wich is why those characthers have resistance

Toshiro's never had any mention of this type in any form so he doesn't get anything.

 

[Naeblis495]

kuzan , litterally become ice itself down to a biological level iirc. it's a completly different story and a completely different manga with different rules.

Who can beat her ? Anyone with sufficient ammount of AZ resistance , hax or just stomping her in stats . Hitsu have none of those in this key. Adult toshiro would stomp her because he can powernull and have a massive stat advantage .

ah , yes the ice clone , you mean the thing he never used again despite many life threatening fights after his first use of the technique ? So not in characther for him to do on average ?

 

[Icezer00]

Who can beat her ? Anyone with sufficient ammount of AZ resistance , hax or just stomping her in stats . Hitsu have none of those in this key. Adult toshiro would stomp her because he can powernull and have a massive stat advantage .

ah , yes the ice clone , you mean the thing he never used again despite many life threatening fights after his first use of the technique ? So not in characther for him to do on average ?

You made my point, you're idea is that if hitsugaya don't show it or mention it in some kind of way then In your case that means hitsugaya don't have it. Then That Would mean adult hitsugaya would lose the same way because the manga Did not state He has ice resistance now when he was adult hitsugaya. Base on your explanations there's no way his nullifying abilities would work on her since he never use it on her, all we know is he has increase striking power And nothing else and new increase ice abilities. You see how that get too much to explain

Self inflicted Powers are normally happens when you Are not suppose to be using that power at the level Yet, like what happen with hitsugaya ice flowers limiters, Or kenpachi bankai. But in Rukia and yamamoto sake it's more of a elemental effect, because Captain yamamoto who had his ryujin jaka for over 2 thousand years is not gonna have problems with his. Over time Rukia would be able to probably last longer in Bankai state with enough training

hitsugaya use his ice clone 2 times if we count hitsugaya battle with byakuya, doesn't mean that abilities is lost in the wind. It's still one of his abilities he can still use when he needs it. One of the many reasons hitsugaya is better than Rukia, Many array of Weapons to fight with.

 

[Naeblis495]

One of his abilitiy he never used again. Wich mean that, IN CHARACTHER , he will not use it 9 times out of 10. If he was bloodlusted , i would take it into account , but here i really can't .

And no , the anime filler doesn't count ,please .

You can't rely on this kinds of odds to make an argument .


You don't make sense , you are saying that yama will turn to ash if he use his bankai too long and then say that because he had it for thousands of years , he will not have problem handleing it?

Once again there absolutly no proof that hitsugaya have anything to resist and there is even proof that his power can't hurt him .

yama and rukia both have statement of their power hurting them and both of them resisted the negative effects for some time , wich grant them resistance to those effect . Hitsu have no such thing.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Toshiro is also Large Island Level, Higher in Bankai. Post Timeskip Hitsu in Base/Shikai scales to on the level of/above his Pre Timeskip Bankai. Then he has Bankai on top of that. And then Tenso Jurin on top of that. (It's been noted in series that his Reiatsu skyrockets when using Tenso Jurin, by statements and the feat of him basically one shotting Halibel who was stronger than him before using it). He can use TJ in Shikai as well. Keep in mind that the Toshiro post timeskip but pre training.....the one that got his Bankai stolen in the first invasion isn't the same Toshiro post invasion. He did his own training too. It wasn't as drastic of a power gap as the Royal Guard training, but it was potent enough. He was actually faring well against Bazz B considering he was able to tag him a few times in the fight. Rangiku was only there to help with elemental weakness. And that's the main reason why he lost. He was never blitzed or overpowered by him. His ice just kept getting melted. Even after taking 2 direct hits from burn finger 1 and 2 back to back, he got up and still stomped Cang Du.

Rukia scales to Renji and above As Nodt, though with her Bankai she's literally immobile after using it. And you say her bankai deals with cold and lowering temperatures, which is true, but her Bankai specifically uses Mist. Moisture/Water. Which is exactly what Hitsugaya manipulates. As for her Shikai, she can only use AZ for 4 seconds. So her win condition is hitting him in 4 seconds with AZ. She has to cut someone who's a superior swordsman and combatant in the form of Hitsugaya. And Hitsugaya is a CQC fighter primarily. His ice based attacks usually stem from CQC. He fights ranged when he's testing the opponent out and figuring them out. His fights against Gin, Aizen (both times), that fodder arrancar that he one shot (I forgot his name), Halibel, Bazz B, Cang Du, Ikkaku, Yumichika and Mayuri especially, and finally Gerard shows that he's not afraid to get up close and personal. Rukia has no swordsmanship skill or combat feats to put her on Toshiro's level. Her AP isn't higher, and she's not more versatile than him. I didn't even get into the specifics of his individual techniques vs hers.

Rukia's win conditions: Tagging him within 4 seconds of dropping to AZ in shikai (Unlikely due to the skill gap), Going Bankai and hitting him with AZ mist (Unlikely due to Hitsugaya manipulating moisture), or defeating him with her swordsmanship/kido/zanpakuto abilities (unlikely due to the skill and ability gap). Toshiro's win conditions are basically everything else. If he keeps her at range, she's not hitting him as he has a plethora of ranged and AOE attacks. If they fight up close, she has a better chance thanks to Kido but Toshiro is the better fighter overall. Toshiro would at least have knowledge of kido spells and what they do. He's listed as a Kido expert and though he hasn't been shown using it outside of filler, he should definitely have the knowledge due to being a captain that went through the Academy. People seem to forget that quite a few of Toshiro's attacks can one shot too due to the nature of them. This is just the broad general scope. There's specifics to their techniques, fighting styles and how that interacts too

 

[HST_Master]

Uh what? He immediately got overpowered as soon as Bazz used Burner Finger 1 and nearly got one shotted by burner finger 2. Bazz was completely and utterly unbothered by his attacks. He even points out the only thing Toshiro hurt was his cape. And stomp Cang Du? The only reason Cang Du couldn't land a hit is because Hyorinmaru won't hit itself, not because Toshiro was on that level, not to mention he was temporarily Hollowfied.

And yes she is immobile hence why she would only use it when it's absolutely necessary, because it's not a bankai that can be busted out whenever like Ichigo's and Renji's.

And this is assuming Toshiro will somehow automatically counter her Bankai upon 1st viewing, which Freezes whatever it comes in contact with and whoever touches Rukia why? Again even TYBW Toshiro is unaware she has a bankai. And what feats in Swordmamship would toshiro have that put him above Rukia? Being a captain, even though she's one? Stabbing Aizen who's really Momo? Trying to hit Gin with his Ice? And he literally won the fight against Luppi by freezing his tentacles.

• Cang Du he didn't even attack, Hyorinmaru just auto blocked until it completely returned hollowfied

• Again he kept trying to use his Vacuum Ice to fight, failed and them immediately got hit with Burner Finger 1 as soon as it was revealed he did jack to Bazz B.

• Ikkaku and Yumichika he curbed stomped because they're literally Lieutenant level.

• Again Mayuri points out he's not a fighter.

• He was playing the range game just like Byakuya against Gerard. Kenpachi was the only one that was getting in close.

• And Hallibel held off him, Lisa, and Hiyori all at once.

So there's not much of a skill gap, getting in close is a death sentence as again, it's not the sword that drops, it's Rukia, anything that comes in contact with her, even the ground is freezing, AoE can get mitigated by Kido like Danku or the like for defense, at best they're comparable in AP instead of him supposedly stomping her, and not really no. The only one that might do so is Hyoten Hykkaso and that requires him to prep it enough throughout the fight and is unlikely to use unless he aboslutely has to and needs Bankai and is less one shot and more freeze gg. Meanwhile at best he only knows about her dances sans Shirafune, he has no idea of her true ability and she doesn't need bankai to use AZ, only to spread it farther, which she can easily do if he's close enough.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

How will Toshiro counter her Bankai upon first viewing it?

Rukia says "Bankai!" and activates her Bankai -> Toshiro readies himself for something and gets on guard -> Rukia transforms and unleashes her AZ AOE Mist -> Toshiro seeing the cloud of AZ Mist uses his mositure manipulation to keep the mist from touching him or otherwise avoids it as he isn't the type to let himself get hit with unknown attacks unlike say, Kenpachi -> Rukia is stuck in place and can't move -> Toshiro takes her out with a ranged attack while she's immobile

This is not me making up a headcanon, this is in character for him. When he fought Halibel he told her "If your attacks revolve around maniulating water, they will never reach me." And he avoided her AOE Cascada attack by using his manipulation of moisture. The difference between her and Rukia is that Rukia doesn't control moisture like how Toshiro and Halibel do. While you can argue her other attacks aren't about moisture as much as it is cold, her Bankai specifcally realeses and AZ mist which is key. Mist.

What superior swordsmanship feats does he have? Virtually every fight he's had where he fought using his sword? Which is basically all of them? What puts Rukia on Toshiro's level in terms of swordsmanship and combat ability? I'm not talking about power levels but combat abilities. And even taking AP into account, like I said before, Tenso Jurin is treated as a Reiatsu amp to him in lore. Or rather him no longer holding back as the only time he's at full power is while using it. And TJ doesn't take set up to activate. HH needs TJ to activate, but all he has to do is point it at the sky and for kilometers on end he can make it rain (snow) death if need be with enough potency to one shot/seal people stronger than his Bankai without using TJ. I wasn't suggesting an AP stomp though, I was saying she would get outclassed by him if they fought up close due to superior swordsmanship and expert combat melding between his Zanpakuto abilities at close mid and long range. Again, Rukia can only use AZ in shikai for 4 seconds total. She has 4 seconds to try to tag him while he is unhindered in the amount of time he has.

 

[HST_Master]

Rukia says "Bankai!" and activates her Bankai -> Toshiro readies himself for something and gets on guard -> Rukia transforms and unleashes her AZ AOE Mist -> Toshiro seeing the cloud of AZ Mist uses his mositure manipulation to keep the mist from touching him or otherwise avoids it as he isn't the type to let himself get hit with unknown attacks unlike say, Kenpachi -> Rukia is stuck in place and can't move -> Toshiro takes her out with a ranged attack while she's immobile

Again assuming that he'll somehow automatically counter her Bankai upon activation why? He has no idea she has one or when she'll use it, meanwhile she has full knowledge on him. Not to mention it's not a slow mist it's a fast acting burst, by the time he tries to do something he'll be frozen and crumbling under his own weight.

This is not me making up a headcanon, this is in character for him. When he fought Halibel he told her "If your attacks revolve around maniulating water, they will never reach me." And he avoided her AOE Cascada attack by using his manipulation of moisture. The difference between her and Rukia is that Rukia doesn't control moisture like how Toshiro and Halibel do. While you can argue her other attacks aren't about moisture as much as it is cold, her Bankai specifcally realeses and AZ mist which is key. Mist.

He said this while she was firing blatant big waves of water at him to freeze before she immediately turned his words back on him. And it's the context in how he manipulates moisture. He manipulates it to control the weather via Tenso Jurin and Freeze things, meanwhile Hallibel does the exact opposite.

What superior swordsmanship feats does he have? Virtually every fight he's had where he fought using his sword? Which is basically all of them? What puts Rukia on Toshiro's level in terms of swordsmanship and combat ability? I'm not talking about power levels but combat abilities. And even taking AP into account, like I said before, Tenso Jurin is treated as a Reiatsu amp to him in lore. Or rather him no longer holding back as the only time he's at full power is while using it. And TJ doesn't take set up to activate. HH needs TJ to activate, but all he has to do is point it at the sky and for kilometers on end he can make it rain (snow) death if need be with enough potency to one shot/seal people stronger than his Bankai without using TJ. I wasn't suggesting an AP stomp though, I was saying she would get outclassed by him if they fought up close due to superior swordsmanship and expert combat melding between his Zanpakuto abilities at close mid and long range. Again, Rukia can only use AZ in shikai for 4 seconds total. She has 4 seconds to try to tag him while he is unhindered in the amount of time he has.

And compared to other characters they aren't that impressive. All the examples you've given were addressed and in the cases of the sternritter and Mayuri repeatedly. Aside from being a Child Captain he hasn't shown any real swordmanship that would put him above her. Tenso Jurin isn't treated as a reiatsu amp, it's a way for him to pull off more taxing stuff like Hyoten Hykkaso, otherwise he doesn't use it for much else in Bankai and is reluctant to do so unless he has to. And 4 seconds is more than enough considering everything above and the fact she doesn't need to directly cut him, so much as clashing swords or a light tap is enough and he won't be aware not to touch her as again she can work around his abilities with the knowledge she has, his is outdated.

 

[Naeblis495]

yeah , rukia's bankai aoe release is fast enough to blitz a sternritter in vollstanding , As Nodt couldn't even react. As long as hitsu in in the aoe range , he is getting it by rukia's burst of mist .

Well , that is if she even need to go bankai in the first place , at absolute zero temperature , just being near him will be enough to freeze him. As Nodt required a strike because he is resistant to AZ , hitsu doesn't have that resistance .

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Ok this is probably gonna be the last big post I'm dropping and probably the biggest. Alright.

Assuming he'll counter her Bankai with no knowledge? He knows her general Zanpakuto ability deals with ice and cold. He already knows to have his moisture manipulation ability ready against another person who uses ice. Toshiro doesn't have to make a whole big movement to manipulate moisture. At most a gesture with his arm, at least a thought/mental activation of his ability. Like his Bankai regen or changing the weather


Toshiro had 0 idea what Halibel's ability was before the fight, but the moment she used her resureccion ability he used an Ice clone and got far out of her perceptions range then attacked when her guard was down. It's not headcanon or out of character for him to react to the simple activation of a power up. And while yes, he does use it to manipulate weather and freeze things, it's a bit more than that. He can use it on Reiatsu enhanced moisture/other people's attacks and once frozen can manipulate that for his own. Halibel was also was able to do the same. Rukia doesn't have that same luxury of being able to manipulate ice and moisture in the same way those 2 do.


Rukia by her own admission said that she isn't that great of a swordsman. Granted, that was pre timeskip, though nothing suggest that she closed the gap in the 17 months, and only a fraction of the 0 squad training was swordsmanship and combat. He was able to hold his own against Gin, held his own against Halibel in close quarters combat for an extended period of time (With Halibel being stronger than Base and R1 Ulquiorra mind you by his own admission to Ichigo), 17 more months of training, specifcally swordsmanship training in the period where his Bankai was taken away (while Rukia was with squad 0), his fight with Ikkaku, Yumichika, Charlotte and Mayuri. The reason I bring that up is that it shows his combat capabilities and fighting skill/fighting style in CQC against people arguably more skilled than Rukia in terms of combat. Mayuri may not be the best swordsman, but he is extremely fast and even then he couldn't keep up and needed special tools to keep up with Toshiro's swordsmanship despite that. Ik speed is equalized here but it's still a skill feat. In general, most Bleach characters don't have too many swordsmanship skills thanks to their various powers, but Toshiro has some of the most besides the likes of Ichigo and Kenpachi. Alot more than Rukia.


The points with the other characters and the sternritter were just for other feats in general. He was able to hold his own against Bazz B. As I said before, the vaccum ice was only to try to counter Bazz B's flames. He was against his literal elemental weakness and not only that, one of the strongest that wasn't one of Yhwach's elite guard. Even then he never got blitzed or completely overwhelmed by Bazz B. I'm by no means arguing that he was winning, but he was able to catch Bazz off guard with his only saving grace being able to melt the ice. Toshiro took Burn Finger 1 and 2 back to back, got up immediately after, and beat Cang Du. Even if Hyorinmaru wouldn't attack Toshiro, Cang Du used hand to hand and his other abilities and weapon and Toshiro still had enough strength to win even after getting directly taking both Bazz B's attacks.


Tenso Jurin is treated as a AP/Reiatsu amp in series. Starrk, Halibel, and the shinigami around noted it. I think I remember Starrk asking Kyoraku if all Captain's Bankai were that amazing or something, and this is after Toshiro had already been in Bankai the whole time. He only asked that after TJ. And more evidence is that HH was able to oneshot/seal Halibel who was stronger than him prior to using TJ. Toshiro even stated he let himself get tired and weakened so that when he used TJ in Bankai it would be weaker for his allies' sake. It wasn't that HH is taxing, he let himself get weakened. And TJ is basically immediate. One or two panels to appear in the manga both times it was used, and a few seconds in the anime. HH could be the entire range of the weather cloud if he wanted. Though that's aside from the point.


As Nodt is considered resistant to AZ because he used his transformation to break out. Rukia also has to gradually lower her temperature. She can't go to AZ instantly. Well, she can but there's a high chance she'd kill herself. The ice quakes and the lowering temperature in the mositure in the air around her/frost on her body would be enough to make him weary. This is what the wiki here has for part of his intellignece stat, specifically about combat

"In battle, he has great instincts against incoming danger, such as from his reaction to Harribel's initial attack after releasing."

Considering the ice quakes, temperature lowering, etc, it's not even a headcanon or reach to say that he would be cautious. And when she does hit truly AZ, she only has a 4 second window to touch or tag him. She has knowledge that he has the strongest Ice Zanpakuto and some of his moves, he has knowledge that she uses ice and cold.


As Nodt isn't actually resistant to AZ in lore. He simply had the "Reiatsu negates hax" thing going on. Same as Byakuya. Any character able to increase their Reiatsu above Rukia's should be able to do the same. Hitsugaya should be able to do the same with his Bankai in lore but the wiki doesn't seem to accept that Reiatsu negates hax except for the characters that directly showed it.

That being said, not being able to dodge an AOE attack doesn't = a blitz. AOE is AOE for a reason. It's supposed to be "undodgeable". Hitsugaya wouldn't be dodging anything. Simply just manipulating the moisture in the air since Rukia's attack is literally mist.


Keep in mind, this isn't a scenario about how Rukia wins in some scenario's and using that as the definitive win. It's about who would be more likely to win more times than not. Rukia has 2 win conditons which aren't guarnateed to even hit, compared to all of the options Toshiro has to win.


And finally......I'm tired of posting these long posts so this is probably gonna be my last long one. I didn't even get into how their specifc fighting styles and techniques would interact but I these long posts are annoying on my end lol

 

[HST_Master]

Assuming he'll counter her Bankai with no knowledge? He knows her general Zanpakuto ability deals with ice and cold. He already knows to have his moisture manipulation ability ready against another person who uses ice. Toshiro doesn't have to make a whole big movement to manipulate moisture. At most a gesture with his arm, at least a thought/mental activation of his ability. Like his Bankai regen or changing the weather

And again that's not how his Zanpakuto works. He specifically manipulates water in the atmosphere to freeze it, anything he does involving water is to freeze it. And even a gesture is too slow, as he's already gotten frozen, if he's so much as near her, he's screwed and as Naeblis pointed out, even As Nodt couldn't react in time to prevent himself from getting frozen.

Toshiro had 0 idea what Halibel's ability was before the fight, but the moment she used her resureccion ability he used an Ice clone and got far out of her perceptions range then attacked when her guard was down. It's not headcanon or out of character for him to react to the simple activation of a power up. And while yes, he does use it to manipulate weather and freeze things, it's a bit more than that. He can use it on Reiatsu enhanced moisture/other people's attacks and once frozen can manipulate that for his own. Halibel was also was able to do the same. Rukia doesn't have that same luxury of being able to manipulate ice and moisture in the same way those 2 do

And she blatantly showed off her resurrection which gave him time to prepare said Ice Clone. And him freezing Hallibel's Cascada is litterally no different from him freezing water in the atmosphere, it's simply visible. And that's completely irrelevant cuz yet again that's not the core of her ability.

Rukia by her own admission said that she isn't that great of a swordsman. Granted, that was pre timeskip, though nothing suggest that she closed the gap in the 17 months, and only a fraction of the 0 squad training was swordsmanship and combat. He was able to hold his own against Gin, held his own against Halibel in close quarters combat for an extended period of time (With Halibel being stronger than Base and R1 Ulquiorra mind you by his own admission to Ichigo), 17 more months of training, specifcally swordsmanship training in the period where his Bankai was taken away (while Rukia was with squad 0), his fight with Ikkaku, Yumichika, Charlotte and Mayuri. The reason I bring that up is that it shows his combat capabilities and fighting skill/fighting style in CQC against people arguably more skilled than Rukia in terms of combat. Mayuri may not be the best swordsman, but he is extremely fast and even then he couldn't keep up and needed special tools to keep up with Toshiro's swordsmanship despite that. Ik speed is equalized here but it's still a skill feat. In general, most Bleach characters don't have too many swordsmanship skills thanks to their various powers, but Toshiro has some of the most besides the likes of Ichigo and Kenpachi. Alot more than Rukia.

Rukia never said that Pre Timeskip. She said that when Kaien was alive I.E. before the start of the series in a flashback. And in that very same flashback Kaien is training her in her sword skills. Not to mention, again this is Captain Rukia. And we never see her Squad Zero Training outside of a exposition flashback with Renji so how can you even say anything on it? And again via his Zanpakuto's abilities, not his swordsmanship, he even stayed away from Hallibel because he knew she'd blitz and one shot him in CQC, only time he went in close was when he and Hiyori were backing Lisa fighting her and we don't even see that outside of a panel. And again we have no idea what training he did in the timeskip and his training he did in between invasions was simply basic training every Soul Reaper does. And again that's out of context.

-Ikkaku and Yumichika wasn't a "fight". They were running from him because they'd get curbstomped in which he did exactly that.

-Charlotte also got stomped.

-Mayuri is not a fighter, he even implemented a device to allow him to auto block Toshiro's attacks and Toshiro kept killing him via Bankai and stomping.

None of these guy back up the claim that Toshiro has more feats of sword skill when the context behind the encounters is completely unincluded. And off topic but Kenpachi doesn't have much sword skill, it's even noted he only went to one class of Kendo and if he did have actual skill, he'd be far stronger than he already is.

The points with the other characters and the sternritter were just for other feats in general. He was able to hold his own against Bazz B. As I said before, the vaccum ice was only to try to counter Bazz B's flames. He was against his literal elemental weakness and not only that, one of the strongest that wasn't one of Yhwach's elite guard. Even then he never got blitzed or completely overwhelmed by Bazz B. I'm by no means arguing that he was winning, but he was able to catch Bazz off guard with his only saving grace being able to melt the ice. Toshiro took Burn Finger 1 and 2 back to back, got up immediately after, and beat Cang Du. Even if Hyorinmaru wouldn't attack Toshiro, Cang Du used hand to hand and his other abilities and weapon and Toshiro still had enough strength to win even after getting directly taking both Bazz B's attacks.

>He never got blitzed

He never got blitzed because Bazz B noted he wasn't trying much. As soon as he tried, he did get bltzed and nearly one shotted. The sole reason he was able to get back up was because Daiguren Hyorinmaru was returning to him, not of his own ability in Shikai. And dude yet again, Toshiro didn't attack against Cang Du outside of Freezing him and never defended against him as Hyorinmaru was auto blocking, finally Hyorinmaru was temporarily Hollowfied as in he was stronger than he usually was which dissipated.

Tenso Jurin is treated as a AP/Reiatsu amp in series. Starrk, Halibel, and the shinigami around noted it. I think I remember Starrk asking Kyoraku if all Captain's Bankai were that amazing or something, and this is after Toshiro had already been in Bankai the whole time. He only asked that after TJ. And more evidence is that HH was able to oneshot/seal Halibel who was stronger than him prior to using TJ. Toshiro even stated he let himself get tired and weakened so that when he used TJ in Bankai it would be weaker for his allies' sake. It wasn't that HH is taxing, he let himself get weakened. And TJ is basically immediate. One or two panels to appear in the manga both times it was used, and a few seconds in the anime. HH could be the entire range of the weather cloud if he wanted. Though that's aside from the point.

Starkk asking that doesn't mean it's a Reiatsu amp, it's him noting that weather subjugation is impressive. They were commenting on storm clouds suddenly appearing at such an alarming rate on a otherwise sunny day. And Freezing her =/= reiatsu amp, and what? Toshiro never let himself be weakened. He didn't use it because it costed him his remaining time in Bankai which is represented by the petals behind him and because he has a tough time controlling it in Shikai let alone Bankai. It's why he had to fight against her later on when she got out in Shikai to recover.

As Nodt is considered resistant to AZ because he used his transformation to break out. Rukia also has to gradually lower her temperature. She can't go to AZ instantly. Well, she can but there's a high chance she'd kill herself. The ice quakes and the lowering temperature in the mositure in the air around her/frost on her body would be enough to make him weary. This is what the wiki here has for part of his intellignece stat, specifically about combat

As Nodt didn't resist because of Vollstandig, it was Blut, and I never claimed she could. And she's constantly decreasing throughout the fight regardless so I don't see why this matters? And this still would give him zero knowledge that she's gonna AZ him if he touches him, at most he'll think she's preparing a dance and attempt to counter.

That being said, not being able to dodge an AOE attack doesn't = a blitz. AOE is AOE for a reason. It's supposed to be "undodgeable". Hitsugaya wouldn't be dodging anything. Simply just manipulating the moisture in the air since Rukia's attack is literally mist.

AoE attacks can have speed as well you know. And refer to above.

Keep in mind, this isn't a scenario about how Rukia wins in some scenario's and using that as the definitive win. It's about who would be more likely to win more times than not. Rukia has 2 win conditons which aren't guarnateed to even hit, compared to all of the options Toshiro has to win.

I could say the same thing. Toshiro has nearly no solid advantage or surefire kill abilities to deal with Rukia. At the very most, she just can't use her dances against him. Rukia on the otherhand has an advantage in both ability and knowledge, given that she can find ways to work around his Zanpakuto's abilities while any knowledge on her is outdated by a decade.

I can understand that, I'm on mobile and sometimes my whole post gets erased.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

It's only been us going back and forth and nobody else has really been giving their input since. Overall it seems to be in Rukia's favor rn. I still have Toshiro as my vote. I guess we interpret how we see Toshiro and Rukia's feats and scaling differently but like I said, no more long posts. But more people should see the thread and vote too

 

[Strings40404]

SInce I don't see him being way weaker than Emo-Quincy Toshiro wins with better abilities and brains.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

He's not weaker at all. The Emo-Quincy Toshiro is Post Invasion Toshiro at full power. The trap's ability doesn't make the zombies any stronger. In fact, the opposite is true, with her being able to make them at or near their own living full power at best under special conditions, which was Toshiro's case. If anything, Zombie Toshiro is weaker then living Toshiro at the end of the war

The site doesn't give him a separate profile post zombification, but post zombification, Toshiro was able to fight with and take hits from Miracle/God Gerard, had enough AP to freeze him to the bone and shatter him (wouldn't have killed him because of Miracle but the AP is there still), and even took a blast from Vollstandig Gerard all before he reached his Adult form

 

[Strings40404]

Toshiro got stronger from infusion but I meant da fear dude when i said emo-quincy.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

And your reasoning for him not being weaker than As Nodt? Because rn its purely your opinion that he isn't way weaker when Hst has already explained why he is.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

As Nodt is pre Royal Guard Byakuya level give or take in terms of Reiatsu. His best scaling feat is stomping Shikai Byakuya while he had Byakuya's own Bankai. The way this scales is saying he has Reiatsu comparable to Bankai Byakuya (Not counting his special moves which put him at 'Higher"). Toshiro after training post invasion was able to take on Quincies with comparable Reiatsu levels to that of his bankai in shikai, then got his Bankai back. While no, not all quincies are made equal, the fact that he can hold his own against people that were on the level of his immature Bankai just days before in shikai post training, and then got even stronger post zombification, and can still go Bankai on top of that, and the fact that by post Zombification he had enough AP to damage and could take attacks from God and Vollstandig Gerard before his Bankai Matured. I'm not arguing for a new key or 6-B post zombification Hitsu, but at the very least that in universe scales him above most non Elite Guard level quincies

 

[HST_Master]

And Pre Royal Guard Byakuya was stronger than Post Timeskip Toshiro anyway. Toshiro didn't do any noteworthy training in between the 1st and second invasion like the others such as Rukia, Ichigo, Renji and Byakuya's Royal Guard Training, Saijin's Humanfication, Kenpachi and Yachiru's Training, and Soi Fon's Mugen Shunko training. His was soley just basic training and trying to come up with a way to fight without his bankai with Rangiku and Haineko, which failed. Toshiro never did anything noteworthy to Bazz B as Bazz himself even notes that he soley at most ripped his cape up which contradictve of the Pro Toshiro arguments that say otherwise this backed up by when Toshiro tries to retreat everything he tried to use to escape with his new fighting style was casually shut down while they were essentially hunted. He never held his own against anyone that wasn't utter fodder with just his Shikai. Also the Elite guard isn't chosen for AP. It's their schrifts, nearly all of them have some form of Dura Negation.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Toshiro was able to keep up with, tag, and surprise Bazz B in that scuffle. He took burn finger 1 and 2 back to back and immediately got up to continue fighting Cang Du. The only reason his attacks didn't do anything to Bazz B is because he has the literal elemental advanage over Toshiro. His attacks melt before they can do anything. It's the equivalent of fighting an opponent who can literally neg your main ability. Rangiku's involvement was just a strategy to make it so that his ice doesn't get negged and it worked for a time. It had nothing to do with Toshiro's stats or skills. Analogy using pokemon. Having 2 pokemon with comparable stats. One has a type advantage. They hit each other with some attacks, but one wins easily not due to their level and stat difference, but because of the type advantage. If the one at a disadvantage hit a pokemon that didn't have the advantage but had similar stats, it would've done far more damage. But because it had the advantage, the otherwise lethal move was "not very effective"

 

[HST_Master]

Toshiro's Ice was very much still there when Bazz revealed it did jack to him, you can even see the frost still on his cheek and his cape in tatters already proving he was genuinely hit by it so the argument that Toshiro "just had an elemental disadvantage" is already faulty, and even then that would soley make his attacks ineffective, not allow Bazz to go through him like butter like he soon proceeded to. And again it soley "worked" because Bazz wasn't trying. And yet again, he only got back up because Hyorinmaru came back to him, and even then Hyorinmaru was Hollowfied to boot, I.E. more powerful than normal. Repeating it again and again without the context behind it isn't gonna make it so.

 

[Strings40404]

Toshiro was garbage compared to Bazz-B. No damage VS 2-KO like a sucka

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Toshiro's Ice was very much still there when Bazz revealed it did jack to him, you can even see the frost still on his cheek and his cape in tatters already proving he was genuinely hit by it so the argument that Toshiro "just had an elemental disadvantage" is already faulty, and even then that would soley make his attacks ineffective, not allow Bazz to go through him like butter like he soon proceeded to. And again it soley "worked" because Bazz wasn't trying. And yet again, he only got back up because Hyorinmaru came back to him, and even then Hyorinmaru was Hollowfied to boot, I.E. more powerful than normal. Repeating it again and again without the context behind it isn't gonna make it so.

Yea the ice did touch him, but we know that the attack didn't fully connect with him as the ice seemed to have pierced straight through him. If he just tanked it due to being vastly superior, the ice would've shattered on impact with his skin or something along those lines. We see the ice turning to water when he gets up from the attack. And then immediately after he begins bragging about how strong his flames are. His attacks which are heat beams piercing through Toshiro like butter doesn't imply an AP gap. Bleach characters literally stab and pierce through each other with their weapons and techniques all the time unless there's a massive AP gap or special abilities like Hierro or Blut being used. Getting you Bankai back doesn't heal damage or restore stamina. The durability amp that you get doesn't heal you wounds and only applies after it activates. If someone gets damaged in shikai and then goes Bankai, all the damage you recieved is still there. He didn't turn hollow until after Cang Du tried attacking him with Ice which didn't work and with his own physical attacks which didn't do anything. Then Toshiro beat him. Then later on, Toshiro in bankai was able to hold his own against God sized Gerard, could freeze him to the bone (with charge time on that), and take direct hits from him both in God sized and Vollstandig. I know you all keep saying Mayuri isn't a fighter or combatant and what not, but he was able to blitz Pernida so badly that he was able to perform surgery on his arm before he could react, with Pernida being able to surprise blitz Yoruichi. And Toshiro was able to blitz Mayuri before he could react. I know speed is equalized in this fight but the in lore strength level he's at is pretty up there even before having his Bankai matured.


Though like I said before, us going back and forth doesn't mean much if nobody else votes since we seem to interpret the in verse feats and scaling differently

 

[HST_Master]

Yea the ice did touch him, but we know that the attack didn't fully connect with him as the ice seemed to have pierced straight through him. If he just tanked it due to being vastly superior, the ice would've shattered on impact with his skin or something along those lines. We see the ice turning to water when he gets up from the attack. And then immediately after he begins bragging about how strong his flames are.

And then he blatantly shows it did connect, it just didn't harm him. Up until he gets up he still has plenty of Frost on his face. And if his flames are > Ryujin Jakka's that means he's > Toshiro as well, since Yama never generated flames, it was his reiatsu being so intense it appeared that way.

His attacks which are heat beams piercing through Toshiro like butter doesn't imply an AP gap. Bleach characters literally stab and pierce through each other with their weapons and techniques all the time unless there's a massive AP gap or special abilities like Hierro or Blut being used.

And yet there was a massive AP Gap. Toshiro could do nothing to defend against him, as yet again having Ice would only make anything he does with the Ice ineffective at the most. It wouldn't make his drop suddenly and he wasn't off guard or anything of the sort.

Getting you Bankai back doesn't heal damage or restore stamina. The durability amp that you get doesn't heal you wounds and only applies after it activates. If someone gets damaged in shikai and then goes Bankai, all the damage you recieved is still there.

Bankai is a general increase in Reiatsu for most, especially ones that are clad types like Renji's Ichigo's Psuedo Bankai and Toshiro himself.

He didn't turn hollow until after Cang Du tried attacking him with Ice which didn't work and with his own physical attacks which didn't do anything. Then Toshiro beat him.

That's false. It was already Hollowfied, the whole point of the black pills Kisuke made was to Hollowfy their Bankais so that they'd return to the captains, it being Hollowfied is the entire reason it went back. And again Cang Du didn't land a hit because Hyorinmaru won't attack itself. It blocked every attack because both were using Hyorinmaru at the time. And Toshiro froze him, that's it and again ignoring was hollowfied. Normal Bankai Toshiro has never, not once fought against Cang Du.

Then later on, Toshiro in bankai was able to hold his own against God sized Gerard, could freeze him to the bone (with charge time on that), and take direct hits from him both in God sized and Vollstandig.

A. He only Froze him once while in his Pre-Mature state and then Gerard simply got back up. Not to mention there's an entire thread going on whether freezing someone should be considered or AP. And he never took a hit from Gerard.

B. He only Froze Vollstandig Gerard in his Mature State. Who then broke out.

Both Gerard's are 6-B for being > Patchless Shikai Kenpachi. He doesn't scale to him without Maturing.

know you all keep saying Mayuri isn't a fighter or combatant and what not, but he was able to blitz Pernida so badly that he was able to perform surgery on his arm before he could react, with Pernida being able to surprise blitz Yoruichi. And Toshiro was able to blitz Mayuri before he could react.

And again this is out of context.

Mayuri was able to keep up with Toshiro soley because of his inventions. Heck he stopped fighting before Toshiro even used Bankai because he already injected him with his Drug.

Yoruichi never got blitzed. She touched Pernida's nerves and got her arm turned into a pretzel.

And Mayuri never blitzed Pernida? He got hit with the compulsory and amputated and worked on it before it could take control any further. That's not blitzing in the least.

 

[Naeblis495]

you have a patience , HST, to continue arguing , i gave up a while ago ^^.

But yeah , i pretty much agree with everything you've said.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

I never said it didn't connect, I said the ice did touch him but it didn't shatter on his skin due to superior AP, it melted from his heat. That doesn't imply that Toshiro didn't have enough AP to damage him, it implies, or rather shows that Toshiro's ice would always be melted by Bazz B's flames at this point. Why do you think the entire time Bazz B kept going on and on about how ice won't be able to stop his heat? They never once attacked each other with melee. Only fire vs ice, which again goes back to the Pokemon analogy.


And what you're saying about a massive AP gap implies that Bleach characters on comparable levels can't harm each other unless there's a massive AP gap. Bleach character's literally stab and pierce each other all the time. Unless the AP gap is massive, even weaker characters can harm stronger ones with regular stabs and attacks, let alone their Reiatsu abilities. Burn finger 1 is a piercing attack in general. A heat beam. Toshiro formed an ice wall to block it, it melted through the ice and pierced Toshiro. Ice because fire > ice and Toshiro because it's simply what the attack does. The only way for Toshiro to have not been pierced would for him to be massively above Bazz B which he's not. And then burn finger 2 was him using the heat trails more like a slash than a stab, which then proceeded to explode. This slash didn't cut straight through Toshiro. Wounded and broke his shikai? Yes, but it didn't cut through like butter. And then he got up after that. Yes, getting you bankai is an stat buff, but Toshiro already recieved the damage. Going bankai after taking damage doesn't heal you or restore your stamina. You getting more durable doesn't do anything to attacks that already hit you.


About freezing being AP or not, in Bleach which are battles of spiritual energies it is, as if Toshiro was too weak, the attack wouldn't have worked at all. Toshiro blocked a hit from God Sized Gerard after Gerard tried stopping him from freezing him to the bone along with Byakuya, and then after Gerard went vollstandig, he took a blast from Gerard before going into his mature Bankai


This is what the wiki has regarding Pernida and Mayuri's speed

Pernida

Relativistic (Blitzed Yoruichi and as one of the Schutzstaffel he should be at least as fast as the female Sternritter group)

Mayuri

Relativistic (Able to perform surgery on his hand, stop Pernida's nerves and reconstruct his hand before Pernida could react. He was also able to dodge Pernida's multiple Heilig Pfeil barrage with ease, should be superior to Nanao and Nemu)

The fact that Mayuri solely kept up because of his inventions is supporting evidence for Toshiro's high placement on the overall Bleach power scale, and the moment he went Bankai Mayuri would've been blitzed like how the drug showed.

Though like I said, us going back and forth about it is meaningless unless others vote too since we interpret the in verse feats, statements and scaling differently. I still stand by what I say that it's more likely for Toshiro to beat Rukia than it is for her to beat him due to her only having 2 win conditions with one requiring her to tag Toshiro within 4 seconds and the other being negged due to it being mist which he can manipulate or freeze solid before it hits him. I don't see her landing that in 6/10 or 51/100 fights for a more probable definitive victory. On the contrary Toshiro has many ways to beat her and is a stronger and more skilled combatant due to what we've seen from both of them in story from beginning to end. That's where I stand on this and those are my points for people who still have yet to vote

 

[BakiHanma18]

bump

 

[Icezer00]

I can't believe this match up still going lol hitsugaya wins for many reasons. Long Range: toshiro has many range attacks to use from homing Ice Dragons, Hyōryü Senbi, Guncho Tsurara, And Hyōten Hyakkaso. Plus he can fly she can't unless they in the real world.

Close range: hitsugaya is a better fighter than Rukia, he uses Ice attacks when fighting up close.

Intellect: Hitsugaya has great instinct and intuition in most of his battles. He is aware of most things in his presence

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

All worthless as is more likely Rukia just uses AZ, which he doesn't resist, and kills.

I am surprised you are still using such terrible, unsustained reasoning.

 

[Icezer00]

All worthless as is more likely Rukia just uses AZ, which he doesn't resist, and kills.

I am surprised you are still using such terrible, unsustained reasoning.

It's funny when people just say Rukia just use AZ and she wins So by that logic no one can defeat Rukia as long she uses AZ lol that logic makes no sense to me. By that logic Byakuya has more resistant to AZ than hitsugaya lol

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No, plenty of people can defeat Rukia.

People that can kill her in one hit by AP. People that can kill her in one hit by hax they pull out faster. People that can seal her, or paralyze her, or whatever else faster than she can use AZ. People that can amp speed and blitz her.

If you don't have resistance, you don't resist. Its a super simple logic you can't get into your head for unknown reasons. Hitsugaya has never withstood AZ temperatures, so he gets frozen. Nice and simple.

 

[BakiHanma18]

If this was Adult Toshi, he could take it easily, right?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not see how that matters much but, yes?

He AP stomps her so hard its not very funny, she can't even scratch him either, and he can Flash Freeze her in a mere sec, which he is likely to do as he shows he doesn't shy from using it. That just ends up power nulling her and she's fried.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not see how that matters much but, yes?
He AP stomps her so hard its not very funny, she can't even scratch him either, and he can Flash Freeze her in a mere sec, which he is likely to do as he shows he doesn't shy from using it. That just ends up power nulling her and she's fried.

Just providing an example of Rukia not winning every fight

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Good point.

 

[Icezer00]

No, plenty of people can defeat Rukia.

People that can kill her in one hit by AP. People that can kill her in one hit by hax they pull out faster. People that can seal her, or paralyze her, or whatever else faster than she can use AZ. People that can amp speed and blitz her.

If you don't have resistance, you don't resist. Its a super simple logic you can't get into your head for unknown reasons. Hitsugaya has never withstood AZ temperatures, so he gets frozen. Nice and simple.

Yeah U should read my statement again before commenting. I didn't say she couldn't get defeated, I said if she uses And hit with absolute zero she wins. So By that logic only as-nodt and byakuya is safe from Rukia everyone else in soul Society is screwed. So if characters like captain yamamoto or Ichibei get hit by Rukia absolute zero they lost

 

[Naeblis495]

yeah , any characther that doesn't resist AZ or can't counter it with another hax will be incappable to defend against rukia if she land a hit .

The problem is landing the hit or catching them in her bankai aoe before she is herself defeated by people stronger than her .

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Imagine thinking Hog Aizen and Miracle users can't walk that shit off.

 

[Naeblis495]

that is why i wrote "or can't counter it with another hax" but even if they can survive it , they would be hurt by it and couldn't just tank it with sheer durability .

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The comment was meant for Icezer since he said no one could beat her if she landed it.

A fun but off topic question is if Balance would kill her after the fact since Jugo gets one shot?