Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

[ByAsura]

I don't see why any of that other stuff means anything, especially since that first sentence doesn't present a contradiction and that other scan is technically universal Eternity (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a modern perspective). None of my arguments had anything to do with avatars or M-Bodies.

I didn't say he was portrayed that way, I said he was portrayed as presiding over such things while existing outside them, which is an accurate statement.

Embodying all levels of creation doesn't change my arguments, which I would tell you to read more thoroughly, but Ultima and I have already come to an agreement on this that takes the facts into account.

 

[ByAsura]

On another note, is TLT getting a rating through universal manifestations?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Last reminder for all non-staff to acquire permission to comment in this thread before actually doing so.

Further infractions will have your comment deleted without warning.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree

 

[Ultima_Reality]

On another note, is TLT getting a rating through universal manifestations?

Yeah, since he employs M-Bodies too.

Good thread. Regarding the Micro and Macroverses, considering it has been previously accepted that Eternity has some form of DNA “fractal" relationship with his aspects, we can also assume Full Eternity has a similar relationship with the collective unconscious but on an Omniversal scale.

Which is specifically important considering The Superflow could also be equated to Dreamtime in the earlier cosmology, due to very similar definitions and attributes. Which might be important considering Amadeus Cho (who is capable of comprehending the aforementioned 1-A+ hierarchy of the Multiverse through mathematics), could not comprehend Dreamtime. Giving further evidence for High 1-A

And of course, we should also assume Infinity has a similar nature to Eternity for her own aspects, which would obviously imply her Multiversal form defines transfinite numbers on a larger framework then Alephs starting from the uncountables, which should most probably imply High 1-A too

Agreed with all.

I'm not sure if Amadeus Cho necessarily was comprehending the higher layers of the multiverse. If he said something like "perceive the multiverse on all its infinite levels," it'd be interesting, but he seems to be talking about side-by-side realities there.

But I suppose that Eternity's fractal nature could serve as a bit of supporting evidence, yes, given that Universal Eternity already has infinite higher worlds in himself, so, As Above so Below would seem to dictate a similar structure is replicated on the multiversal scale.

As a side-note: Something I forgot to point out in the OP is that, for some reason, we currently act like the true Phoenix Force was rebooted by the rebirth of the omniverse in Secret Wars, and give her an "Eighth Multiverse" key that includes all the recent statements of transcendence that the White-Hot Room.

I... don't think I even have to go too deep into what's wrong with that.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems reasonable based on what was accepted previously.

@DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @Agnaa @Everything12 @Planck69 @PrinceofPein @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Elizio33

Do the tiering rationales make sense here?

The knowledgeable non-staff members that I summoned can only make a single post here so make it count please.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I still much prefer if we stop using the term "omniverse" instead of "multiverse".

 

[Agnaa]

I suppose that this seems reasonable based on what was accepted previously.

@Agnaa

Do the tiering rationales make sense here?

The knowledgeable non-staff members that I summoned can only make a single post here so make it count please.

I currently have 6 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also, I still much prefer if we stop using the term "omniverse" instead of "multiverse".

Tbf, for Marvel at least, Omniverse is a canon in-universe term.

Do the tiering rationales make sense here?

They make sense, the main issue being that this would be a more modern cosmology to use and wouldn't be some universal back scaling thing.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

They make sense, the main issue being that this would be a more modern cosmology to use and wouldn't be some universal back scaling thing.

That's not really an issue. The modern additions to the cosmology don't really contradict much of the older stories at all (And if they do that has canon explanation), and basically none of the ones from 2000 and onwards, especially with Al Ewing writing stories while viewing Marvel as one big interconnected verse and joining dots with that in mind.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The modern additions to the cosmology don't really contradict much of the older stories at all

It's not about contradicting, it's about how they built and expanded upon earlier concepts to a degree that I don't think it's correct to backscale it to other cosmologies

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Why not, exactly? If Marvel introduced Concept X in the early 2000s, and then later on in 2020 that concept was expanded and elaborated on in a way that doesn't contradict any of the information we were given before, then there's absolutely no issue in retroactively applying the new information. If there are actual inconsistencies at play (i.e The scale of a concept blatantly changing from one era to another), you have a point, but if there aren't, there is nothing to worry about.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why not, exactly?

It's more a personal hesitation to backscale something from now to something from the 80s or 90s.

If you're confident that they're compatible then, sure, I'm fine with the reshuffling.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's more a personal hesitation to backscale something from now to something from the 80s or 90s.

If you're confident that they're compatible then, sure, I'm fine with the reshuffling.

To an extent I agree with you on that. For example, nowadays "multiverse" is a term often used to refer to all of Eternity, which includes not just the alternate universes but also the planes of existence above those. Obviously, said planes didn't exist back in the 90's or 80's, so a character from an old-ass story who says "I'm going to destroy the multiverse!" with no added context to it wouldn't exactly scale to High 1-A, since the statement was made in a time when those weren't included and as such wouldn't necessarily refer to all of Eternity in the modern sense.

But it's not like we're gonna say that Multi-Eternity as he appeared in the 80's is 2-A while Multi-Eternity in the modern cosmology alone is High 1-A or something, it's the same character.

 

[Antvasima]

Tbf, for Marvel at least, Omniverse is a canon in-universe term.

It doesn't make any sense to use a completely inaccurately used term that even the author admitted was inaccurately used (presumably because he thought that it sounded cooler), so I would greatly appreciate if we can skip it.

 

[Lewis]

Bump

I want thread to continue and apologize for entering without permission.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem in this case.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Having reread the OP I've gotta say I agree with the changes. The argument as it is presented along with the scans make sense. Don't really have any objections.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we even have an official wiki pages that explains why that word should not be used for a single verse.

 

[Udlmaster]

It doesn't make any sense to use a completely inaccurately used term that even the author admitted was inaccurately used (presumably because he thought that it sounded cooler), so I would greatly appreciate if we can skip it.

While I prefer the use of Multiverse myself, we could appease both sides and have notes on profiles with feature the word saying something along the lines "While Omniverse in the past has erroneously been used to refer to 'All Fiction' within one setting, within Marvel proper, Omniverse specifically designates a larger structure which extends beyond the Multiverse."

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that it would be far too inconsistent, confusing, and misleading to use that term at all. My apologies.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

By the way. Small addendum to this bit of the OP:

The next point has to do with information to be found in Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #140 and #141, respectively.

Those scans speak for themselves: The comic places Earth-616 as one part of an infinite hierarchy of universes contained by larger universes, which extends ad-infinitum. This is something that's alluded to in several other parts of Marvel history, namely here (Doctor Strange Vol. 1 #171), here (Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme. #88), here (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #75), here (Thor Vol. 1 #292) and here (Defenders Vol. 3 #3)

With all of Earth-616 having been accepted as a Low 1-A structure, this is a 1-A+ structure, and, given it is transcended by the outer omniverse (And the planes above it), serves as additional support for a High 1-A rating.

So, as it turns out, this is not the only storyline where DeMatteis brought up the concept of worlds within worlds. His work on Man-Thing Vol. 3 and Strange Tales Vol. 4 had him do the same thing.

To be specific: In Strange Tales Vol. 4 #1 and #2, the rundown he gives is that all of creation is a bunch of thoughts and dreams in the mind of God (Something that still holds true today, btw). Not only that, but it's also "dream into dream," and the narration later mentions that there are infinite dreams, in fact.

Later on, he reinforces this by saying life is "an endless ocean of dreams," and that the reality where humans live is beneath this ocean. The comics themselves also comment often on how the dream of existence is divided into layers.

The Spider-Man comic was published in 1999, one year after DeMatteis' tenure working on Silver Surfer Vol. 3, so it seems that between the two he might have changed his cosmological view a little and written Earth-616 as being the lowest layer of the pile of dreams, too, instead of there being worlds lower still than it like he implied in Silver Surfer.

Whatever the case, Eternity obviously scales to this hierarchy, not only due to the information in the OP, but also given that he encompasses "all levels of reality and dream," and the fact that the system of worlds within worlds is explicitly the smallest fraction of what he is.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that you agree with me that we should separate the Jim Starlin and J.M. DeMatteis versions of the Marvel Comics cosmology from the main version. Or at least you told me so previously.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I thought that you agree with me that we should separate the Jim Starlin and J.M. DeMatteis versions of the Marvel Comics cosmology from the main version. Or at least you told me so previously.

I said that DeMatteis could make for a potential third cosmology before I gave his stuff an in-depth read. Having looked over it, I didn't see any incompatibilities with the main one, so, I'm back to thinking Marvel only needs to be split into two cosmologies indeed (Regular one and Starlin)

 

[Executor_N0]

I said that DeMatteis could make for a potential third cosmology before I gave his stuff an in-depth read. Having looked over it, I didn't see any incompatibilities with the main one, so, I'm back to thinking Marvel only needs to be split into two cosmologies indeed (Regular one and Starlin)

In a way, just calling it "Starlin" would need more context because a lot of early Starlin is in fact built upon reality having more layers of existence and the whole cosmic hierarchy, even Al Ewing just calls the cosmic side "Starlin stuff". So when the cosmology is split, it would be good to have it explained that it's not just a difference in writers, but also how their views changed over the years

 

[Antvasima]

I said that DeMatteis could make for a potential third cosmology before I gave his stuff an in-depth read. Having looked over it, I didn't see any incompatibilities with the main one, so, I'm back to thinking Marvel only needs to be split into two cosmologies indeed (Regular one and Starlin)

Okay. So how have your tiering plans changed then?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

In a way, just calling it "Starlin" would need more context because a lot of early Starlin is in fact built upon reality having more layers of existence and the whole cosmic hierarchy, even Al Ewing just calls the cosmic side "Starlin stuff". So when the cosmology is split, it would be good to have it explained that it's not just a difference in writers, but also how their views changed over the years

Well, in essence, what I'm planning to do is basically splitting off Thanos from Marvel: The End and from the Infinity Saga into its own profile separate from the mainstream Thanos, with an accompanying note explaining why he is rated so much lower. It'd reduce confusion, and also account for the fact that both stories don't happen in Earth-616 even in Starlin's own continuity anyway.

Besides this, I'll also make a profile for Above-All-Others, with similar explanations in it. Both will scale to 1-A, still, since Starlin's Cosmology was part of the regular one for a very long time before the two eventually branched off, so all of the explanations for why the Universal Abstracts scale to Low 1-A and such still apply to them. The main divergence is largely the fact that the Multiversal Abstracts don't exist in Starlin's writings, and Above-All-Others and the Living Tribunal are depicted as the step immediately above the Universal ones. So, none of the High 1-A shit applies to them.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP's proposals. Nothing objectionable in my view.

 

[ByAsura]

the Living Tribunal are depicted as the step immediately above the Universal ones. So, none of the High 1-A shit applies to them.

The TLT that Thanos absorbed was explicitly a universal M-Body, so I agree.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

TLT was explicitly a universal M-Body, so I agree.

Less this and more that, in Starlin's narrative, there is no such thing as a Multiversal Abstract. There is just the Abstracts of each reality and then Above-All-Others as the step immediately after them (And who serves as the personification of every reality here, instead of any higher version of Eternity)

 

[ByAsura]

He wrote Warlock and the Infinity Watch, so I disagree with that assessment.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Elements from previous comics of Starlin's don't take precedence over what was established in the Infinity Saga proper, I don't think, especially when what I said is pretty much unquestionable. For example Above-All-Others and the Living Tribunal have a chat where the former explicitly refers to the Tribunal as the overseer of a single reality (This being the one that was once Adam Warlock), and then this same Tribunal later teams up with Above-All-Others to fight Thanos, which wouldn't make sense if he was just one manifestation of a higher Tribunal.

And overall the whole thing can't really be excused by M-Bodies, given that the Tribunals of each reality are outright treated as separate entities instead of momentary projections of a singular being, which is what M-Bodies are.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Elements from previous comics of Starlin's don't take precedence over what was established in the Infinity Saga proper, I don't think, especially when what I said is pretty much unquestionable. For example Above-All-Others and the Living Tribunal have a chat where the former explicitly refers to the Tribunal as the overseer of a single reality (This being the one that was once Adam Warlock), and then this same Tribunal later teams up with Above-All-Others to fight Thanos, which wouldn't make sense if he was just one manifestation of a higher Tribunal.

Hm. Although, looking back at it now, it does seem to have been a different Tribunal, seeing as Thanos seemingly fights with the Adam Warlock Tribunal and has him absorbed (His appearance even changes from what it was before) before moving on to the Tribunal that stands next to Above-All-Others. That way the scene makes a good deal more sense, too. Would be odd if Above-All-Others just picked the Living Tribunal of this random reality to fight by their side against Thanos.

I concede on the point that there is indeed a Multiversal Tribunal in Starlin's Cosmology. Although the point about the other Abstracts having no multiversal versions stands.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So how have your tiering plans changed then?

@Ultima_Reality

So about DeMatteis...

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality

So about DeMatteis...

Eh, they haven't changed at all, really. Including DeMatteis' writings as part of the main cosmology really alters absolutely nothing of the original plans.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

Are you absolutely certain that the Jim Starlin cosmology is as high as you interpret it as? The battle between the Infinity Gauntlet Thanos and Eternity was only displayed at a 3-B scale, and Starlin on his own did not establish a higher cosmology than regular Low 2-C universes stacked beside each other, and Above All Others ruling above them with a version of the Living Tribunal ruling over each universe, as far as I recall, and Starlin is infamous for just completely ignoring whatever other writers have established or any damage that he causes to a setting, as seen in Death of the New Gods for example.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Are you absolutely certain that the Jim Starlin cosmology is as high as you interpret it as? The battle between the Infinity Gauntlet Thanos and Eternity was only displayed at a 3-B scale, and Starlin did not establish a higher cosmology than regular Low 2-C universes stacked beside each other on his own as far as I recall, and he is infamous for just completely ignoring whatever other writers have established or any damage that he causes to a setting, as seen in Death of the New Gods, for example.

I am quite sure, yes. Thanos' fight with the Abstracts was already collapsing the entire spectrum of reality even before Eternity arrived, for instance. You have to remember that, whenever we see cosmic entities fighting, we're really only seeing the "surface" of it all, since they're actually operating on a bunch of levels of reality that mortals can't perceive. So what we perceive is really just the tiniest rip of the iceberg when it comes down to it.

And while Starlin does tend to ignore things and do his own thing, he hasn't really ever contradicted the bits of the cosmology that lead to Low 1-A, just the ones that lead to High 1-A. So, regular ol' 1-A for his stuff is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that we should only scale Starlin's stories from what he himself has established though. 1-A seems way too high for his extremely egocentric and self-contained type of storytelling.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Okay. I think that we should only scale his stories from what he himself has established though. 1-A seems way too high for his extremely egocentric and self-contained type of storytelling.

Nobody cares... this is bias, Ant...

 

[Antvasima]

Also, when Thanos merged with the local universe via the Heart of the Universe he was only shown perceiving reality on a Low 2-C scale. If we are going to separate Starlin, I think that we should separate him completely from the rest of the continuity, as he explicitly doesn't care almost at all about anything established by other writers.