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btw quick question, would this upgrade the 2-c characters too?Don't derail this.
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btw quick question, would this upgrade the 2-c characters too?Don't derail this.
No. In fact I have a great deal of issues with the current 2-C ratings for the Herald tiers. But that's a discussion for another thread.btw quick question, would this upgrade the 2-c characters too?
What about this issue?Which span of years are you referring to btw?
1991 to 1996.Which span of years are you referring to btw?
Although "in that manner" is of course the operative word here. Stuff like Jim Starlin's work on the Infinity series is indeed something that's largely completely different from the cosmology that Marvel's usual continuity works with, so refraining from scaling the things in it to the rest (i.e putting Astral Regulator Thanos at High 1-A or something) is something I'd agree with.I disagree with splitting the cosmology in that manner
Yes, Jim Starlin's Marvel Comics cosmology is blatantly merely of a 2-A, or at the very most Low 1-C, scale. He has just been doing whatever he feels like no matter the damage in a common playground, as is his usual modus operandi.Although "in that manner" is of course the operative word here. Stuff like Jim Starlin's work on the Infinity series is indeed something that's largely completely different from the cosmology that Marvel's usual continuity works with, so refraining from scaling the things in it to the rest (i.e putting Astral Regulator Thanos at High 1-A or something) is something I'd agree with.
There is also thIs issue btw.Also, we will need even stronger rule safeguards in place to avoid all stronger herald-level characters to scale from various Low 1-A to High 1-A feats.
Yeah, it's something that actually takes up a decent portion of the upcoming Part 2 of these revisions. But overall I wouldn't say my approach is a composite cosmology, per se, no, since I am willing to split things up in terms of scaling, here and there. By and large I just don't believe Marvel requires as severe a partitioning as, say, DC did.If you intend to merge together the works of writers separated by a few decades and completely different managements in charge of the company, I think that it does seem relevant to discuss your composite cosmology approach at some point during your revisions.
Eh. The rules that apply now will still apply after the upgrades. Although, of course, there's the fact that a great deal of the instances that we currently consider nonsensical outliers actually do have canon explanations that we simply overlooked (Starbrand destroying a Beyonder's physical avatar for instance was because Beyonders can freely decide how powerful they are while in their material forms. Black Panther defeating the Tiger God was because of the Tiger God's core metaphysical nature, etc), so overall there is not much to worry about.There is also thIs issue btw.
Well, my strong impression is that pre-Quesada the cosmology was much larger and the strongest protagonist characters much weaker in terms of raw power, whereas post-Quesada the cosmology turned much smaller and the strongest protagonist characters much more powerful.Yeah, it's something that actually takes up a decent portion of the upcoming Part 2 of these revisions. But overall I wouldn't say my approach is a composite cosmology, per se, no, since I am willing to split things up in terms of scaling, here and there. By and large I just don't believe Marvel requires as severe a partitioning as, say, DC did.
I think that you strongly underestimate the number of instances with completely messed up scaling where we explicitly cannot blame it on m-bodies or the herald-level characters affect entire Earth-616-style segments of the multiverse or the multiverse as a whole, and more and more of them will gradually pop up over the years, and quite a lot of our members will likely jump at the chance to scale all characters that they favour to insanely exaggerated tiers, so again, much stricter or explicit safeguards will have to be put into place to prevent this from happening and undoing already done damage.Eh. The rules that apply now will still apply after the upgrades. Although, ot course, there's the fact that a great deal of the instances that we currently consider nonsensical outliers actually do have canon explanations that we simply overlooked (Starbrand destroying a Beyonder's physical avatar for instance was because Beyonders can freely decide how powerful they are while in their material forms. Black Panther defeating the Tiger God was because of the Tiger God's core metaphysical nature, etc), so overall there is not much to worry about.
These are largely changes in tone and presentation, though, not in the contents of the setting itself. Marvel has, by and large, remained fairly consistent in what it's cosmology consists of. Things didn't begin to shift when Quesada took over in 2000. At least not on that scale.And there is a valid argument for that approach, as before Quesada took over, the characters were technically all living and dying at the whims of casually genocidal cosmic entities, and almost completely helpless before a horde of "lets take excruciating pleasure torturing everybody in hell forever" satanically evil demonic overlords.
The tone of the stories simply tended to try to gloss over that Marvel Comics was fundamentally a dystopian cosmic horror setting with cheerfully bright and shiny surface polish, so the writers are more honest and trying to address that problem nowadays at least. Meaning that not everything is worse currently.
Hm. Can you assemble a list of such instances when you have the time? And preferably send them over to me in a private message, so I can look over them and think of what to do. It's a separate topic from these revisions, ultimately, even if adjacent to them, so, better discuss this elsewhere.I think that you strongly underestimate the number of instances with completely messed up scaling where we explicitly cannot blame it on m-bodies or the herald-level characters affect entire Earth-616-style segments of the multiverse or the multiverse as a whole, and more and more of them will gradually pop up over the years, and quite a lot of our members will likely jump at the chance to scale all characters that they favour to insanely exaggerated tiers, so again, much stricter or explicit safeguards will have to be put into place to prevent this from happening and undoing already done damage.
They were amped when that happened.and Dormammu and Umar defeating multiversal Eternity
I think all they did was combine their 2 powers via the Axis IIRC.They were amped when that happened.
Not quite. What happened was that a shift in the axis of the cosmos upended the laws of reality and made even impossible things become possible for Dormammu and Umar. They did defeat Eternity by combining their powers, but being able to do so wasn't the long thing that the shift in question did for them.I think all they did was combine their 2 powers via the Axis IIRC.
Well, the problem is that I have blocked my access to western comic-reading sites, as they took too much time and destabilised my mind in combination, so I am very much out of that frame of mind nowadays compared to a year ago
I feel these are indicative of the general behaviour here. You may be concerned about the general state of Marvel, however, I find that it's highly unproductive to oppose change when you yourself state your knowledge on the matter is incomplete, that you are overworked, that the topic itself causes you mental distress and above all others, that there are no proposed alternatives that wouldn't be years in the making to fix the appalling state of the profiles as they are.Okay. I will have to investigate later then. I have been extremely overworked in IRL and here combined in recent months though.
"even though I do not read most of the published material anymore"I do have extremely high amounts of knowledge regarding this particular verse, even though I do not read most of the published material anymore, so I would much prefer to evaluate this more indepth when I find the time. I am less opposed than I was initially though, as long as scaling safeguards are installed.
Also, this is supposed to be a staff only thread, not a place to take random potshots at myself.
Why does the herald scaling to it even matter for this thread?If somebody has questions regarding greater specifics for the top of my head examples above, feel free to mention them here, and if anybody here remembers other stories that would genuinely have herald-level characters end up at tier High 1-B or above by scaling from the entire Earth-616 cosmology, the Marvel multiverse as a whole, various cosmic entities, or similar, feel very free to mention it to me via private messages here in this forum while also providing exact issue rereferences.
Yeah. Don't have much of a horse in this race anyway.Dt what's ur view on these upgrades so far, I assume you are indifferent rn right?
That's a fair argument as that (assuming no other "all" weirdity applies) it's fair to assume the dimensionality refers to at least that in Eternity. If there were relevant dimensionality statements exclusive to other realities, it might need closer inspection.He wouldn't. Slorioth would only scale above the Abstracts if other universes had greater dimensionalities than the ones found in Earth-616 (Or more generally if realms outside of and confirmably above reality were dimensional in nature). We are, however, never told that, so it's not a possibility that's worth considering. Not only is it never stated, but we also know it can't be the case, since Earth-616 is the prime timeline and the template on which all the others are based. It's the trunk of the tree, as it were, so all realities are basically carbon-copies of it in all but the events taking place in them.
The only one you can maybe argue is another trunk entirely, and not just a branch, is Earth-1610, the Ultimate Marvel continuity, but even that one is demonstrably also equal in size to Earth-616, since one time they were set on a collision course that ultimately destroyed them both.
Truth be told, Slorioth belonging to all dimensionalities with no stated caveat and yet being a resident of a single Earth is really just evidence that dimensionality is something entirely contained in individual realities. Which makes sense; after all, they're all contained and separated by the Superflow, which is a space that's conceptual and metaphorical (Wacky-ass scene). Very much not a realm that's dimensional in nature. Ditto for other layers above it (Which are fully mapped out btw)
So, if all universes have the same dimensionalities, the same size, and dimensionality in its entirety is something that's part of a universe to begin with, with the realms above reality being in turn non-dimensional in nature, then what you're saying is largely either untrue or just not an issue. Your thinking here is probably that, if Slorioth is to exist in all dimensionalities, then he has to exist in the dimensions of all universes too, which isn't really the case: Say you have Universe A and Universe B, both of which are 8-D, and both of which are separated by a dimensionless void. Being 8-D in Universe A means I cover all its dimensions, but it doesn't mean I need to extend over all the dimensions of Universe B too, because each world has its own independent set of dimensions.
Have to disagree on that notion for the already mentioned reasons. Don't believe non-digital implies that the space corresponding to the dimensionality of a intellectual matrix existence is meant as physical dimensions.It does, however, mean that they would become non-digital in nature, and that's enough for my purposes, since the main utility of that scan is establishing that, with infinite-dimensional space explicitly existing, Slorioth would then exist as an infinite-dimensional being(Frankly I could do that with other scans, like the one that the third point centers around, but I'm really lazy and this was the one that needed the least explaining tbh). Slorioth himself isn't a material entity, of course, but that doesn't really matter; a higher-dimensional being or space being incorporeal doesn't bar it from Tier 2/1 when the verse treats it as superior to the lower-dimensional space anyway, which is the case here: Slorioth's 3-dimensional body is explicitly just an infinitesimal fragment of his true form, for instance.
Sure, let's put it aside for now.We haven't established that the timelines in question are within Eternity, no, because they aren't. Each timeline in Marvel is one Eternity. However it does showcase that his power stretches across the whole of his reality (All known planes of reality, in fact), and yet is incapable of reaching through into other timelines, then his talk of not being the absolute monarch of the universe yet doesn't really inform the scale of his Reality Warping abilities, especially given he claims the latter do make him the absolute master of his timeline despite openly admitting that his empire isn't quite at that point yet.
Honestly, though, given that you seem to have already agreed with Subspace being contained in a single Eternity, and your issues largely have to do with whether this means the Crossroads of Infinity also are, do you mind pushing this sub-point aside for now? It's largely about something we already agreed on and I feel it's gonna sprawl out into one of those textwall debates that nobody reads real quick at this rate.
Not the best evidence then IMO.We don't know, really. The space that the viewpoint character there was observing only had the irregularity of there being a portal to outside of the omniverse next to it. As said, though, the slaughter of the Celestials was going on in all realities, and we don't see much of it for obvious reasons.
So something Sixth created in Eternity could not go beyond Eternity into Sixth or something?Yeah. They're all the same being, pretty much. Just different incarnations/rebirths of the omniversal personification. So what the Sixth Cosmos contained, Eternity also contains.
Well, before I comment further on this I want to know what other people that know Marvel think about it. So @Antvasima and whoever else usually comments on those things, is the Crossroad of Infinity in your opinion connecting just things in Earth-616 or does it also reach to other realities?It's an isolated instance and not really a constant thing, since that particular author is a continuity nerd who really likes making callbacks to old stuff. Basically, in this specific context, it's talking about Earth-616. But, say, here, here, here and here (Read: Everywhere else), it's talking about the specific realm.
As for your question: I'm... quite sure, yes. There just isn't really evidence to say otherwise, in my view.
You're right on the mark on that point, yeah. As we've seen, Eternity isn't comprised of just the Earth Dimension, but also of multiple other planes (All the weird other realms that do exist separately from the normal universe but don't technically count as being other numbered Earths, pretty much). Take the Negative Zone itself, for instance: It's stated to be a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one. We know that Hyperspace separates it and the Earth Dimension (And that the Negative Zone is very much outside of the Earth Dimension), so the latter can't be the "existing universe" containing it, and it's also often made clear that the Negative Zone and our universe are equal in size, so the "pocket" designation should be analyzed more carefully too.
That is to say, both it and the Earth Dimension are technically "pocket universes" (Really just full-blown universes) resting inside of the larger reality of Earth-616 as a whole, alongside the aforementioned other realms, and Hyperspace is then the space between and around all those worlds. So my point is that Subspace being the link to other universes and realities doesn't necessarily suggest it stretches beyond Eternity, because he already contains multiple realities in himself. Hell, The Negative Zone itself has been described as an alternate reality before (Second scan's context is that they're trapped in it. From the same comic as the "infinite number of space-time continuums... even realities" one, so that shows that, although "alternate realities" there are being somehow distinguished from other space-time continuums, they're not necessarily referring to realms outside of one Eternity)
I might be able to answer this in detail since I've read all of these storylines, but what exactly is it that you're asking here? Your phrasing is a bit confusing.So something Sixth created in Eternity could not go beyond Eternity into Sixth or something?
Well, before I comment further on this I want to know what other people that know Marvel think about it. So @Antvasima and whoever else usually comments on those things, is the Crossroad of Infinity in your opinion connecting just things in Earth-616 or does it also reach to other realities?
In my understanding, Sixth Cosmos created the Crossroads of Infinity, which are now within Eternity. The crossroads are supposed to go "everywhere". So would it be unreasonable to assume that they can go from Eternity into the Sixth Cosmos or to some other place outside Eternity?I might be able to answer this in detail since I've read all of these storylines, but what exactly is it that you're asking here? Your phrasing is a bit confusing.
Oh, this is actually something I've been wanting to get out of the way. Thanks for reminding me.Eternity can't really lead to places outside of Eternity in that sense (depending on the retcon, because it did lead to The Beyonder's womb-space in SWIII), and the Sixth Cosmos mutated into the Seventh Cosmos upon its death, becoming more complex.
My view is that it is a multiversal transportation nexus, mainly for travel between different universes. It does not seem to be confined to or contained by single universes, just to intersect with them.Well, before I comment further on this I want to know what other people that know Marvel think about it. So @Antvasima and whoever else usually comments on those things, is the Crossroad of Infinity in your opinion connecting just things in Earth-616 or does it also reach to other realities?
Oh, sorry about the possibly misunderstanding. I do not think that the Crossroads have been mentioned or shown to lead to different incarnations of the Marvel multiverse as a whole, but it is possible to reach them via powerful time travel, so it is likely not certain.In my understanding, Sixth Cosmos created the Crossroads of Infinity, which are now within Eternity. The crossroads are supposed to go "everywhere". So would it be unreasonable to assume that they can go from Eternity into the Sixth Cosmos or to some other place outside Eternity?
So we do actually have indications that it goes beyond Eternity then, huh? That being said:Oh, this is actually something I've been wanting to get out of the way. Thanks for reminding me.
Basically, there is one instance (Fantastic Four #319) in which the Crossroads of Infinity are depicted as a pathway even to realms beyond Eternity, like the womb-space where the Beyonder was gestating, and the realm of the Beyonders that lies outside of everything. However, that's not exactly an example of the Crossroads of Infinity being able to connect even to realms beyond Subspace, or anything. As said here: "Somewhere in the Negative Zone, the mad conjunction of universes around us, there is a lightless universe. They (the Beyonders) dwell there!"
So, that particular case is moreso an instance in which the Crossroads were depicted as leading even to outside of existence because Subspace (What is meant by Negative Zone there, since as seen before, the two realms are confused for each other pretty often) itself was depicted as containing all of existence, as well as realms above it. That view of it (And of the Negative Zone itself) didn't really make it past this specific comic, so, like ByAsura said up there, it's basically a retcon of its scale.
Oh, sorry about the possibly misunderstanding. I do not think that the Crossroads have been mentioned or shown to lead to different incarnations of the Marvel multiverse as a whole, but it is possible to reach them via powerful time travel, so it is likely not certain.
If we accept the Crossroads to be entirely part of the reality that is part of Eternity, then infinite dimensional Eternity appears likely. (High 1-B or Low 1-A if we have qualitative superiority)My knowledge of Marvel is limited, but my understanding is that the Crossroads is just Earth-616. I am not aware of any cases of other realities connecting to it in that sense, and more crucially, it is located within the Negative Zone. This suggests to me that it is specific to Earth-616, as other realities have their own Negative Zones.
I may be mistaken, but that is the impression I have.