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Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

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I will preferably also try to find the time to check through and make comments regarding the first post of this thread at some point.

Trying to tie together all of Marvel Comics' very conflicting writer scaling into a single whole, especially by mixing universal and multiversal scaling, seems extremely counter-intuitive to me, given that most comic-book writers have no idea what most of the others have been doing, and our chain scaling will end up enormously exaggerated due to all of the non-abstract entities that will end up at tier Low 1-A or higher since Marvel cannot remotely keep its intended power levels remotely coherent, especially in relation to each other.
 
I would appreciate if you refrained from doing do. "But all of the regular heroes will end up scaling to this!" is something that's not endorsed neither by this thread nor by the way in which the profiles are currently scaled (Meaning that, even if it was an issue, which it isn't, it wouldn't be something created by this thread). That just dials back to the discussion that you and ByAsura had earlier on, in which you agreed to just stay out of the discussion and let others handle it.

Furthermore, as said before, the bulk of this thread uses comics released in the timespan of only 5 years as a pool of evidence. A very, very short amount of time, so what you mention about writer inconsistencies and the like is not a valid point anyway. Not here, at least.
 
Okay. I will have to investigate later then. I have been extremely overworked in IRL and here combined in recent months though.

Which span of years are you referring to btw?
 
Hmm. That seems very outdated in that case, especially if you are then going to build the full multiversal scaling on what Al Ewing established during the last few years. I still much prefer separating the pre-Joe Quesada and post-Joe Quesada eras, as the editorial culture and attitude towards continuity, coherence, and characterisation changed completely due to it.

Also, we will need even stronger rule safeguards in place to avoid all stronger herald-level characters to scale from various Low 1-A to High 1-A feats.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I disagree with splitting the cosmology in that manner
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Although "in that manner" is of course the operative word here. Stuff like Jim Starlin's work on the Infinity series is indeed something that's largely completely different from the cosmology that Marvel's usual continuity works with, so refraining from scaling the things in it to the rest (i.e putting Astral Regulator Thanos at High 1-A or something) is something I'd agree with.
 
If you intend to merge together the works of writers separated by a few decades and completely different managements in charge of the company, I think that it does seem relevant to discuss your composite cosmology approach at some point during your revisions.
Ultima_Reality said:
Although "in that manner" is of course the operative word here. Stuff like Jim Starlin's work on the Infinity series is indeed something that's largely completely different from the cosmology that Marvel's usual continuity works with, so refraining from scaling the things in it to the rest (i.e putting Astral Regulator Thanos at High 1-A or something) is something I'd agree with.
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Yes, Jim Starlin's Marvel Comics cosmology is blatantly merely of a 2-A, or at the very most Low 1-C, scale. He has just been doing whatever he feels like no matter the damage in a common playground, as is his usual modus operandi.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, we will need even stronger rule safeguards in place to avoid all stronger herald-level characters to scale from various Low 1-A to High 1-A feats.
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There is also thIs issue btw.
 
Antvasima said:
If you intend to merge together the works of writers separated by a few decades and completely different managements in charge of the company, I think that it does seem relevant to discuss your composite cosmology approach at some point during your revisions.
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Yeah, it's something that actually takes up a decent portion of the upcoming Part 2 of these revisions. But overall I wouldn't say my approach is a composite cosmology, per se, no, since I am willing to split things up in terms of scaling, here and there. By and large I just don't believe Marvel requires as severe a partitioning as, say, DC did.

Antvasima said:
There is also thIs issue btw.
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Eh. The rules that apply now will still apply after the upgrades. Although, of course, there's the fact that a great deal of the instances that we currently consider nonsensical outliers actually do have canon explanations that we simply overlooked (Starbrand destroying a Beyonder's physical avatar for instance was because Beyonders can freely decide how powerful they are while in their material forms. Black Panther defeating the Tiger God was because of the Tiger God's core metaphysical nature, etc), so overall there is not much to worry about.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah, it's something that actually takes up a decent portion of the upcoming Part 2 of these revisions. But overall I wouldn't say my approach is a composite cosmology, per se, no, since I am willing to split things up in terms of scaling, here and there. By and large I just don't believe Marvel requires as severe a partitioning as, say, DC did.
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Well, my strong impression is that pre-Quesada the cosmology was much larger and the strongest protagonist characters much weaker in terms of raw power, whereas post-Quesada the cosmology turned much smaller and the strongest protagonist characters much more powerful.

And there is a valid argument for that approach, as before Quesada took over, the characters were technically all living and dying at the whims of casually genocidal cosmic entities, and almost completely helpless before a horde of "lets take excruciating pleasure torturing everybody in hell forever" satanically evil demonic overlords.

The tone of the stories simply tended to try to gloss over that Marvel Comics was fundamentally a dystopian cosmic horror setting with cheerfully bright and shiny surface polish, so the writers are more honest and trying to address that problem nowadays at least. Meaning that not everything is worse currently.
Ultima_Reality said:
Eh. The rules that apply now will still apply after the upgrades. Although, ot course, there's the fact that a great deal of the instances that we currently consider nonsensical outliers actually do have canon explanations that we simply overlooked (Starbrand destroying a Beyonder's physical avatar for instance was because Beyonders can freely decide how powerful they are while in their material forms. Black Panther defeating the Tiger God was because of the Tiger God's core metaphysical nature, etc), so overall there is not much to worry about.
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I think that you strongly underestimate the number of instances with completely messed up scaling where we explicitly cannot blame it on m-bodies or the herald-level characters affect entire Earth-616-style segments of the multiverse or the multiverse as a whole, and more and more of them will gradually pop up over the years, and quite a lot of our members will likely jump at the chance to scale all characters that they favour to insanely exaggerated tiers, so again, much stricter or explicit safeguards will have to be put into place to prevent this from happening and undoing already done damage.
 
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Antvasima said:
And there is a valid argument for that approach, as before Quesada took over, the characters were technically all living and dying at the whims of casually genocidal cosmic entities, and almost completely helpless before a horde of "lets take excruciating pleasure torturing everybody in hell forever" satanically evil demonic overlords.

The tone of the stories simply tended to try to gloss over that Marvel Comics was fundamentally a dystopian cosmic horror setting with cheerfully bright and shiny surface polish, so the writers are more honest and trying to address that problem nowadays at least. Meaning that not everything is worse currently.
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These are largely changes in tone and presentation, though, not in the contents of the setting itself. Marvel has, by and large, remained fairly consistent in what it's cosmology consists of. Things didn't begin to shift when Quesada took over in 2000. At least not on that scale.

So, on the whole, what Marvel needs is at most a split into two cosmologies: The regular cosmology, which is the one that the usual continuity runs on, and then Starlin's Thanos-centric power trips a little to the side. Maybe you could argue DeMatteis makes a potential third one, but that's really about it.

Antvasima said:
I think that you strongly underestimate the number of instances with completely messed up scaling where we explicitly cannot blame it on m-bodies or the herald-level characters affect entire Earth-616-style segments of the multiverse or the multiverse as a whole, and more and more of them will gradually pop up over the years, and quite a lot of our members will likely jump at the chance to scale all characters that they favour to insanely exaggerated tiers, so again, much stricter or explicit safeguards will have to be put into place to prevent this from happening and undoing already done damage.
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Hm. Can you assemble a list of such instances when you have the time? And preferably send them over to me in a private message, so I can look over them and think of what to do. It's a separate topic from these revisions, ultimately, even if adjacent to them, so, better discuss this elsewhere.
 
Well, the problem is that I have blocked my access to western comic-reading sites, as they took too much time and destabilised my mind in combination, so I am very much out of that frame of mind nowadays compared to a year ago, for example, but the various recent instances of Thor, Phoenix Force hosts, and possibly Iceman and Spectrum as well, displaying multiversal feats are certainly up there, as are semi-classic House of M feats by the Scarlet Witch and Meggan, the Silver Surfer fighting the Griever for a prolonged period of time, and Dormammu and Umar defeating multiversal Eternity, and that's just from the top of my head. Many more instances likely exist, and even more will gradually pop up over time given how lax Marvel's editorial department tends to be nowadays.
 
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Antvasima said:
Well, the problem is that I have blocked my access to western comic-reading sites, as they took too much time and destabilised my mind in combination, so I am very much out of that frame of mind nowadays compared to a year ago
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Antvasima said:
Okay. I will have to investigate later then. I have been extremely overworked in IRL and here combined in recent months though.
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I feel these are indicative of the general behaviour here. You may be concerned about the general state of Marvel, however, I find that it's highly unproductive to oppose change when you yourself state your knowledge on the matter is incomplete, that you are overworked, that the topic itself causes you mental distress and above all others, that there are no proposed alternatives that wouldn't be years in the making to fix the appalling state of the profiles as they are.

Ultima clearly shows an extensive and thoroughly researched argument and has proven it again and again by standing up to scrutiny from DT.

I find behaviour and motte-and-bailey style argumentation inappropriate for someone with holds such influence and sway on VSB and to someone who speaks about the image and reputation of VSB as a whole, for who is more representative of VSB than the person who runs the site daily.

This type of argumentation and quite frankly stonewalling is what does irrevocable damage to the image of Vsbattles, not the proposed upgrade and further ask you don't inflict your opinion on the thread as to not burden yourself any further.
 
I do have extremely high amounts of knowledge regarding this particular verse, even though I do not read most of the published material anymore, so I would much prefer to evaluate this more indepth when I find the time. I am less opposed than I was initially though, as long as scaling safeguards are installed.

Also, this is supposed to be a staff only thread, not a place to take random potshots at myself.
 
Antvasima said:
I do have extremely high amounts of knowledge regarding this particular verse, even though I do not read most of the published material anymore, so I would much prefer to evaluate this more indepth when I find the time. I am less opposed than I was initially though, as long as scaling safeguards are installed.

Also, this is supposed to be a staff only thread, not a place to take random potshots at myself.
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"even though I do not read most of the published material anymore"

That's not extremely knowledgeable mate, I can't even say I'm extremely knowledgeable on, say, World of Warcraft and I've literally adopted the verse and made all but 4 of the profiles
 
I'm not inclined to defend Ant, but this is not a forum to shit on Ant every 5 minutes, and it's been derailing this thread for a while.

But, at the same time, you should also do more research about the subjects you're commenting on if you want to have an in-depth discussion, Ant, even if it's only the more recent materials. Arguing about specific inconsistencies (even though there are most assuredly inconsistencies in Marvel Cosmology) that don't really exist and overextending your time in this fashion also slows the progress of threads.

I'll be deleting any more irrelevant comments and egregious stonewallery.

Discuss this shit privately, or something.
 
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Thank you. 🙏

I think that my recent comments here have been quite harmless, and I have read many thousands of Marvel Comics comic books from before when I added my content filter block for sites that host them, but point taken.

If somebody has questions regarding greater specifics for the top of my head examples above, feel free to mention them here, and if anybody here remembers other stories that would genuinely have herald-level characters end up at tier High 1-B or above by scaling from the entire Earth-616 cosmology, the Marvel multiverse as a whole, various cosmic entities, or similar, feel very free to mention it to me via private messages here in this forum while also providing exact issue references.
 
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Antvasima said:
If somebody has questions regarding greater specifics for the top of my head examples above, feel free to mention them here, and if anybody here remembers other stories that would genuinely have herald-level characters end up at tier High 1-B or above by scaling from the entire Earth-616 cosmology, the Marvel multiverse as a whole, various cosmic entities, or similar, feel very free to mention it to me via private messages here in this forum while also providing exact issue rereferences.
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Why does the herald scaling to it even matter for this thread?
That doesn't disprove the cosmology at all. You'd argue on a different thread if said character's feats are valid or not.
 
Well, from my perspective it helps to strongly indicate that the cosmology is not intended to be nearly as large as it used to be nowadays, but we should probably stop talking about it right now.
 
I'll leave this up for context, but yes, take this particular discussion somewhere else later.
 
Scathan_The_Celestial said:
Dt what's ur view on these upgrades so far, I assume you are indifferent rn right?
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Yeah. Don't have much of a horse in this race anyway.

Ultima_Reality said:
He wouldn't. Slorioth would only scale above the Abstracts if other universes had greater dimensionalities than the ones found in Earth-616 (Or more generally if realms outside of and confirmably above reality were dimensional in nature). We are, however, never told that, so it's not a possibility that's worth considering. Not only is it never stated, but we also know it can't be the case, since Earth-616 is the prime timeline and the template on which all the others are based. It's the trunk of the tree, as it were, so all realities are basically carbon-copies of it in all but the events taking place in them.

The only one you can maybe argue is another trunk entirely, and not just a branch, is Earth-1610, the Ultimate Marvel continuity, but even that one is demonstrably also equal in size to Earth-616, since one time they were set on a collision course that ultimately destroyed them both.

Truth be told, Slorioth belonging to all dimensionalities with no stated caveat and yet being a resident of a single Earth is really just evidence that dimensionality is something entirely contained in individual realities. Which makes sense; after all, they're all contained and separated by the Superflow, which is a space that's conceptual and metaphorical (Wacky-ass scene). Very much not a realm that's dimensional in nature. Ditto for other layers above it (Which are fully mapped out btw)

So, if all universes have the same dimensionalities, the same size, and dimensionality in its entirety is something that's part of a universe to begin with, with the realms above reality being in turn non-dimensional in nature, then what you're saying is largely either untrue or just not an issue. Your thinking here is probably that, if Slorioth is to exist in all dimensionalities, then he has to exist in the dimensions of all universes too, which isn't really the case: Say you have Universe A and Universe B, both of which are 8-D, and both of which are separated by a dimensionless void. Being 8-D in Universe A means I cover all its dimensions, but it doesn't mean I need to extend over all the dimensions of Universe B too, because each world has its own independent set of dimensions.
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That's a fair argument as that (assuming no other "all" weirdity applies) it's fair to assume the dimensionality refers to at least that in Eternity. If there were relevant dimensionality statements exclusive to other realities, it might need closer inspection.

This of course also only holds if we decide that things like the crossroads only connect one reality.

Not sure if it actually matters for scaling under this conditions, but I suppose we may as well move on from this point then.

Ultima_Reality said:
It does, however, mean that they would become non-digital in nature, and that's enough for my purposes, since the main utility of that scan is establishing that, with infinite-dimensional space explicitly existing, Slorioth would then exist as an infinite-dimensional being (Frankly I could do that with other scans, like the one that the third point centers around, but I'm really lazy and this was the one that needed the least explaining tbh). Slorioth himself isn't a material entity, of course, but that doesn't really matter; a higher-dimensional being or space being incorporeal doesn't bar it from Tier 2/1 when the verse treats it as superior to the lower-dimensional space anyway, which is the case here: Slorioth's 3-dimensional body is explicitly just an infinitesimal fragment of his true form, for instance.
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Have to disagree on that notion for the already mentioned reasons. Don't believe non-digital implies that the space corresponding to the dimensionality of a intellectual matrix existence is meant as physical dimensions.

Ultima_Reality said:
We haven't established that the timelines in question are within Eternity, no, because they aren't. Each timeline in Marvel is one Eternity. However it does showcase that his power stretches across the whole of his reality (All known planes of reality, in fact), and yet is incapable of reaching through into other timelines, then his talk of not being the absolute monarch of the universe yet doesn't really inform the scale of his Reality Warping abilities, especially given he claims the latter do make him the absolute master of his timeline despite openly admitting that his empire isn't quite at that point yet.

Honestly, though, given that you seem to have already agreed with Subspace being contained in a single Eternity, and your issues largely have to do with whether this means the Crossroads of Infinity also are, do you mind pushing this sub-point aside for now? It's largely about something we already agreed on and I feel it's gonna sprawl out into one of those textwall debates that nobody reads real quick at this rate.
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Sure, let's put it aside for now.

Ultima_Reality said:
We don't know, really. The space that the viewpoint character there was observing only had the irregularity of there being a portal to outside of the omniverse next to it. As said, though, the slaughter of the Celestials was going on in all realities, and we don't see much of it for obvious reasons.
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Not the best evidence then IMO.

Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah. They're all the same being, pretty much. Just different incarnations/rebirths of the omniversal personification. So what the Sixth Cosmos contained, Eternity also contains.
Click to expand...
So something Sixth created in Eternity could not go beyond Eternity into Sixth or something?

Ultima_Reality said:
It's an isolated instance and not really a constant thing, since that particular author is a continuity nerd who really likes making callbacks to old stuff. Basically, in this specific context, it's talking about Earth-616. But, say, here, here, here and here (Read: Everywhere else), it's talking about the specific realm.

As for your question: I'm... quite sure, yes. There just isn't really evidence to say otherwise, in my view.


You're right on the mark on that point, yeah. As we've seen, Eternity isn't comprised of just the Earth Dimension, but also of multiple other planes (All the weird other realms that do exist separately from the normal universe but don't technically count as being other numbered Earths, pretty much). Take the Negative Zone itself, for instance: It's stated to be a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one. We know that Hyperspace separates it and the Earth Dimension (And that the Negative Zone is very much outside of the Earth Dimension), so the latter can't be the "existing universe" containing it, and it's also often made clear that the Negative Zone and our universe are equal in size, so the "pocket" designation should be analyzed more carefully too.

That is to say, both it and the Earth Dimension are technically "pocket universes" (Really just full-blown universes) resting inside of the larger reality of Earth-616 as a whole, alongside the aforementioned other realms, and Hyperspace is then the space between and around all those worlds. So my point is that Subspace being the link to other universes and realities doesn't necessarily suggest it stretches beyond Eternity, because he already contains multiple realities in himself. Hell, The Negative Zone itself has been described as an alternate reality before (Second scan's context is that they're trapped in it. From the same comic as the "infinite number of space-time continuums... even realities" one, so that shows that, although "alternate realities" there are being somehow distinguished from other space-time continuums, they're not necessarily referring to realms outside of one Eternity)
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Well, before I comment further on this I want to know what other people that know Marvel think about it. So @Antvasima and whoever else usually comments on those things, is the Crossroad of Infinity in your opinion connecting just things in Earth-616 or does it also reach to other realities?
 
DontTalkDT said:
So something Sixth created in Eternity could not go beyond Eternity into Sixth or something?
Click to expand...
I might be able to answer this in detail since I've read all of these storylines, but what exactly is it that you're asking here? Your phrasing is a bit confusing.
 
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DontTalkDT said:
Well, before I comment further on this I want to know what other people that know Marvel think about it. So @Antvasima and whoever else usually comments on those things, is the Crossroad of Infinity in your opinion connecting just things in Earth-616 or does it also reach to other realities?
Click to expand...

My knowledge of Marvel is limited, but my understanding is that the Crossroads is just Earth-616. I am not aware of any cases of other realities connecting to it in that sense, and more crucially, it is located within the Negative Zone. This suggests to me that it is specific to Earth-616, as other realities have their own Negative Zones.

I may be mistaken, but that is the impression I have.
 
ByAsura said:
I might be able to answer this in detail since I've read all of these storylines, but what exactly is it that you're asking here? Your phrasing is a bit confusing.
Click to expand...
In my understanding, Sixth Cosmos created the Crossroads of Infinity, which are now within Eternity. The crossroads are supposed to go "everywhere". So would it be unreasonable to assume that they can go from Eternity into the Sixth Cosmos or to some other place outside Eternity?
 
Eternity can't really lead to places outside of Eternity in that sense (depending on the retcon, because it did lead to The Beyonder's womb-space in SWIII), and the Sixth Cosmos mutated into the Seventh Cosmos upon its death, becoming more complex.

While the multiverses technically do exist in some form in the next place, they're more like spirits than actual extant multiverses.

In fact, we know exactly how dead the Sixth Cosmos is because its consciousness fused with Galactus' before he was shunted into the Seventh Cosmos.

Basically, no. The newer iterations of Crossroads are part of the current Eternities, just like how magic is part of Eternity, or archetypes are part of Eternity.
 
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ByAsura said:
Eternity can't really lead to places outside of Eternity in that sense (depending on the retcon, because it did lead to The Beyonder's womb-space in SWIII), and the Sixth Cosmos mutated into the Seventh Cosmos upon its death, becoming more complex.
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Oh, this is actually something I've been wanting to get out of the way. Thanks for reminding me.

Basically, there is one instance (Fantastic Four #319) in which the Crossroads of Infinity are depicted as a pathway even to realms beyond Eternity, like the womb-space where the Beyonder was gestating, and the realm of the Beyonders that lies outside of everything. However, that's not exactly an example of the Crossroads of Infinity being able to connect even to realms beyond Subspace, or anything. As said here: "Somewhere in the Negative Zone, the mad conjunction of universes around us, there is a lightless universe. They (the Beyonders) dwell there!"

So, that particular case is moreso an instance in which the Crossroads were depicted as leading even to outside of existence because Subspace (What is meant by Negative Zone there, since as seen before, the two realms are confused for each other pretty often) itself was depicted as containing all of existence, as well as realms above it. That view of it (And of the Negative Zone itself) didn't really make it past this specific comic, so, like ByAsura said up there, it's basically a retcon of its scale.
 
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Basically, yeah, it's an enormous retcon from The Beyond being utterly outside and above Multiversal Eternity.

As far back as the 90s Guardians of the Galaxy comic line, there were shown to be alternate timeline versions of The Beyonder's womb-space that come with divergent versions of The Beyonder that don't really gel with the current continuity (even if The Beyonders just planted them there). And there's plenty of other instances that I don't really feel the need to mention, like the Mutant X timeline.

If it were above and outside of the Eighth Multiverse, it'd be transcendent of any variation of Cosmos. So the unretconned stuff wouldn't even support any points about the Sixth Cosmos post-retconning.
 
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DontTalkDT said:
Well, before I comment further on this I want to know what other people that know Marvel think about it. So @Antvasima and whoever else usually comments on those things, is the Crossroad of Infinity in your opinion connecting just things in Earth-616 or does it also reach to other realities?
Click to expand...
My view is that it is a multiversal transportation nexus, mainly for travel between different universes. It does not seem to be confined to or contained by single universes, just to intersect with them.
 
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DontTalkDT said:
In my understanding, Sixth Cosmos created the Crossroads of Infinity, which are now within Eternity. The crossroads are supposed to go "everywhere". So would it be unreasonable to assume that they can go from Eternity into the Sixth Cosmos or to some other place outside Eternity?
Click to expand...
Oh, sorry about the possibly misunderstanding. I do not think that the Crossroads have been mentioned or shown to lead to different incarnations of the Marvel multiverse as a whole, but it is possible to reach them via powerful time travel, so it is likely not certain.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Oh, this is actually something I've been wanting to get out of the way. Thanks for reminding me.

Basically, there is one instance (Fantastic Four #319) in which the Crossroads of Infinity are depicted as a pathway even to realms beyond Eternity, like the womb-space where the Beyonder was gestating, and the realm of the Beyonders that lies outside of everything. However, that's not exactly an example of the Crossroads of Infinity being able to connect even to realms beyond Subspace, or anything. As said here: "Somewhere in the Negative Zone, the mad conjunction of universes around us, there is a lightless universe. They (the Beyonders) dwell there!"

So, that particular case is moreso an instance in which the Crossroads were depicted as leading even to outside of existence because Subspace (What is meant by Negative Zone there, since as seen before, the two realms are confused for each other pretty often) itself was depicted as containing all of existence, as well as realms above it. That view of it (And of the Negative Zone itself) didn't really make it past this specific comic, so, like ByAsura said up there, it's basically a retcon of its scale.
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So we do actually have indications that it goes beyond Eternity then, huh? That being said:

Antvasima said:
Oh, sorry about the possibly misunderstanding. I do not think that the Crossroads have been mentioned or shown to lead to different incarnations of the Marvel multiverse as a whole, but it is possible to reach them via powerful time travel, so it is likely not certain.
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Deagonx said:
My knowledge of Marvel is limited, but my understanding is that the Crossroads is just Earth-616. I am not aware of any cases of other realities connecting to it in that sense, and more crucially, it is located within the Negative Zone. This suggests to me that it is specific to Earth-616, as other realities have their own Negative Zones.

I may be mistaken, but that is the impression I have.
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If we accept the Crossroads to be entirely part of the reality that is part of Eternity, then infinite dimensional Eternity appears likely. (High 1-B or Low 1-A if we have qualitative superiority)

At least from a logical standpoint. As I said at the beginning, I can't comment on issues of consistency and canon.
 
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