Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Agreed with Ultima.

 

[ByAsura]

But By Asura seems reasonable.

Do not trust or put stake into my opinions here.

I'm neutral, and I just disagreed with a bunch of Ant's arguments.

 

[Excellence616]

Is DontTalkDT still busy with what his doing?

 

[ImmortalDread]

There are tons of staff threads where he is dealing with them.

 

[Antvasima]

I am hoping that he will take the time to evaluate this soon.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Do not trust or put stake into my opinions here.

I'm neutral, and I just disagreed with a bunch of Ant's arguments.

Either way, I am more or less in the same boat and am more neutral.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

So far who agrees, is neutral and disagrees

Not counting just staff but people in general within this thread

 

[Lewis]

This can adjust tier of scarlet witch and chaos too, right?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

It would affect Scarlet Witch's Chaos wave yes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Real life stuff got in the way... also this is a lot to read.

What are the contested points? Aside from consistency and canonicity concerns, I mean, as I can not evaluate those anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it would greatly help if you evaluate if Ultima's first post of this thread has logically coherent and reliable tiering interpretations at least, or if they have been greatly exaggerated.

It would obviously also greatly help if you evaluate the reliability of the statements and scans that are used as a foundation for them.

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

If dt is busy can't the thread take place without him? It's kinda just shoving him in when he has better stuff to do anyways (not insulting I just feel it's unnecessary)

 

[Antvasima]

No. It is far too important for that, and we need a solid highly knowledgeable evaluation regarding if the logic behind the tiering suggestions here is reliable.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The amount of staff members in this thread is certainly less than I would've like, so, I've no issue with waiting further for this, like I said before.

Anyhow:

What are the contested points? Aside from consistency and canonicity concerns, I mean, as I can not evaluate those anyway.

Here:

With this groundwork set, we can get on with the first of the five main points I want to present here, which is to be found in Secret Defenders, more specifically its later issues, #20 through #25.

In those final issues, we are introduced to Slorioth, a demonic being that supposedly ravaged the earth dimension 15,000 years ago, before he was eventually sealed away beneath the town of Sparksboro by a cabal of ancient wizards. We get to see Slorioth in Issues #22 and #24, but the latter is the one with the more noteworthy statements about him: We are told, firstly, that his tabernacle is a "trans-temporal" realm, and further onwards, he mocks Anthony Druid for being a "foolish, limited, tridimensional creature" before taking him as an avatar. Both of these statements tell us in fairly explicitly terms that Slorioth is a higher-dimensional being existing beyond time. Nevertheless, the issue ends with Slorioth manifesting on Earth in seemingly physical form and being confronted by the heroes there:



Come Issue #25, though, and things start getting a bit weird: As he fights the thing, the Silver Surfer realizes that Slorioth is in fact a pan-dimensional entity, and that what broke out of the ground in the previous issue was actually just an infinitesimal sliver of his entirety, though one that regardless is still more than strong enough to kick his and everyone else's ass. Later on, Druid, fully christened as Slorioth's avatar, states that "No lone dimensionality could ever hope to contain the gradiose totality I have now embraced." Okay.

And then at the end of the comic, the Living Tribunal is summoned (This scan is something we currently use on the profiles, btw), and reiterates what Druid said above: "The all of Slorioth has ever been too vast for any lone dimensionality!"



I might note, also, that the topic of alternate dimensions never comes up once in this storyline, and before Silver Surfer's initial statement the sole reference to "dimensions" with regards to Slorioth's nature is him deriding humans for being three-dimensional creatures. Therefore it seems entirely clear to me that Slorioth's pan-dimensionality refers to him existing in all spatial dimensions of the verse; his totality being too large for any "lose dimensionality" cements this, as it's pretty much saying that no single dimensional level can contain him, since he spans all of them.

Secret Defenders #25 was published in 1995. Only one year later, in 1996, was published Ghost Rider 2099 Vol. 1 #25, which has this scan in it. You can most likely tell where I'm going with this: Given infinite dimensions, Slorioth's pan-dimensional nature would be High 1-B.

Getting back on track, there are more arguments for the contents of the Universal Abstracts being infinite-dimensional, and the next one revolves around rescaling something that we already accept as being so: The Crossroads of Infinity. To start with, as shown in those panels, it is a realm located within Subspace, "the very edge" of it, in fact. With this established we then move on to Heroes Reborn: The Return, Issue #2, where the Celestial Ashema brings Loki to a realm "beyond the edge of Subspace, to the cusp of Eternity", showing that Eternity contains not only Subspace but also realms beyond it, with this of course being the same storyline where it is shown that everything within Eternity is a figment of his imagination.

This allows us to recontextualize some things in different ways that actually provide more coherence to the cosmology: Subspace (Also referred to as the Distortion Area, which the Crossroads of Infinity are the heart of) has been previously defined as being the barrier between realities, however this seems to refer specifically to it being the space between the dimensions contained within one universe, as it largely is used as a medium to travel to the Negative Zone, which is a a sub-cosmos of Earth-616, also referred to as contained within "hyperspace." Recent comics support this notion, with them defining the Superflow as the space between universes in the larger multiverse, while simultaneously acknowledging the Crossroads of Infinity as still being something that exists. In fewer words: The space between dimensions in a single universe is Subspace / The Crossroads of Infinity, but the space between universes in the wider multiverse is the Superflow.

Subspace being contained in one Universal Eternity is also shown in other comics: Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #400 speculates and then confirms that the Celestials inhabit a higher dimension in Hyperspace (Synonymous with Subspace), and the Celestials, though their origins trace all the way back to the First Firmament, still stick their bases of operations to the confines of singular realities. In the same storyline, Hyperstorm, despite being one with Hyperspace and having full domain over it, still refers to himself being limited to a single universe, and expresses his wish to extend his reign to other realities, the timeline where he took over the universe being itself treated just one of many possible futures.

The third point revolves around something that I've already explained in-depth in another thread, so, I will just copy-paste the explanation I gave there, with slight alterations to fit the context of this thread.

The central story for this argument is Children of the Voyager, which spans four issues. Basically, in Issue #3, we have a mention of a thing called "the Cascade," where "infinite dimensions converge." Seems to be referring to parallel realms without more context, but in Issue #4, the "Voyager" mentioned in the title of the comic shows up, and he wants the main character's soul, which he says is because it will serve as fuel for his ascent into "the Cascade of dimensions above." When the protagonist asks what he means by that, another character explains that he's talking about is "The... next plane up, Heaven. Whatever you want to call it."

Then at the end of it story, he finally gives his soul to the Voyager, and we get a description of the latter's ascension into the aforementioned Cascade:

"...It passes Celestial Pagodas whose balconies and hanging gardens drip sumptuous fruit earthward... It passes ever-increasing spheres and sedimentary layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe... It passes oceans of higher dimensions until, as my split second ability to comprehend what I am seeing contracts... The Voyager bursts, scattering a chorus of voices."

From this, it is clear that the infinite dimensions that the "Cascade" here comprehends are indeed higher dimensions. They're even described as "layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe," and their amount is described as "ever-increasing," which supports the first scan saying that the Cascade is where infinite dimensions converge, and shows (Alongside it being described as "the Cascade of dimensions") that said dimensions are indeed tied to the layers that the Voyager pierces through on his way to it.

The fourth point comes from something that may be either more or less controversial than the rest of this thread, but, anyway: The context is from Quasar #25, where Quasar has a full internal monologue about his current circumstances and the nature of Infinity (As 90's comics be), and says this:

""That's why she [Infinity] plucked my life-essence from my dead body and imbued it with the aspect of her truly infinite power. The trouble is... Just as in mathematics there are numbers greater than infinity, there are apparently trans-infinite forces in the universe as well.

Hard to sum this up even further, but as you can see, Quasar is saying that the universe has transfinite forces in it, greater than infinity in the same manner that mathematics has "numbers greater than infinity." As a good chunk of you all already knows: Transfinite numbers in mathematics aren't the same as additions of +1 dimensions. In fact, everything from 1-dimensional space to countably infinite-dimensional space is included in 2^aleph-0 (The cardinality of the real numbers, which the wiki currently equates to aleph-1), and therefore something with a greater size than this is inherently Low 1-A or higher.

Of course, there are the infamous scans where authors ended up giving comically wrong explanations of how infinities in Set Theory work. Those obviously won't be taken into account, and neither are they to be taken as "How infinities work in Marvel," since that'd lead to a plethora of obvious issues. Only the scans that don't accidentally explain this shit wrong are worthy of consideration in this scenario.

That aside, one tidbit from the text that might be perceived as a potential issue is that the text at a glance seems to refer to forces even greater than the prime Abstracts of the universe, since Quasar mentions the concept of transfinite numbers after mentioning Infinity's "truly infinite power." However, given that Infinity and her cohorts are well-established as governing absolutely everything in Earth-616, and the aforementioned trans-infinite forces are mentioned as being elements of the universe, the statement can only be referring to them, and not something above them. Indeed, as shown above, they operate in the highest plane of existence of the universe.

So, what Quasar is really contrasting the trans-infinite forces with is himself. As he says, Infinity plucked him out of death and imbued him with "an aspect of her truly infinite power," which refers to his connection to the Quantum Zone, the infinite non-space of potential energy that acts as the source of all the power in the universe (Even for beings like the Watchers), which he can tap into and control as his main ability. So the aspect in question is referring to the Quantum Zone, that, although infinite, is still just a part of Infinity's power, which is on a higher level of infinity (In terms of alephs, not singular dimensions) than it.

Since the Quantum Zone would be a source of all energy, fueling even the higher-dimensional entities of the universe (The Watchers currently are scaled to the Celestials, based off of their existence-spanning war), thus having power equivalent to aleph-1, the top dogs of the Cosmic Hierarchy being in turn whole aleph above it, as said above, would make them Low 1-A.

Then there's the fifth, and final, point, which largely stems from this scan, from Marvel Super Villain Team-Up, Issue #17. That one pretty much speaks for itself: The Cosmic Cubes are described as being omni-dimensional constructs. From this statement we have two possible interpretations:

1) The Cosmic Cubes are objects extending over all spatial dimensions of the verse.

2) The Cosmic Cubes have some form of omnipresence, and exist across all realities (Meaning the "dimension" here is referring to planes of existence and not axes).

The latter, as all the evidence indicates, is impossible. The Beyonder, who was himself a Cosmic Cube (Albeit a flawed one) explicitly had no clue of anything pertaining to realities apart from his own realm until he noticed a hole in Eternity serving as a window for him to peer into reality. This wouldn't happen if he existed in all dimensions simultaneously. Even when he evolves into a complete Cosmic Cube and becomes Kosmos (Ditching mortal perspective entirely in doing so, also), the resulting entity still has to manually travel across the universe and discover everything by actual experience. So, all-in-all, the first interpretation seems to be the more correct one.

Given the other statements about infinite dimensionality in the verse, this alone would make the Cosmic Cubes into constructs that are High 1-B at worst. That said, however, it also gives us more leeway to look back into a rather well-known scan that I'm sure most of you all are already familiar with, namely:



""Time"? Once in the "recent past," he knew not of "time," for in his realm, he was all things and all things were him, all at once, ever. "Physical"? Having but three dimensions, instead of an infinite number? Such a thing was unknown to him."

"But Ultima," I hear you say, "This statement is talking about his pre-retcon incarnation! You can't apply it to the post-retcon one!"

So, to address that will require me to explain what exactly the retcon of the Beyonder's origins was: In short, Secret Wars 1 and 2 were not fully retconned, as the events we see in both stories still happened. What was retconned, instead, was the interpretation of the events, namely those related to the Beyonder's old characterization as the most powerful being in existence. Those events happened, but not how the Beyonder thought they did: For example, in Secret Wars II, we are shown him interacting with members of the Cosmic Hierarchy and being generally treated as far more powerful than all of them. After the retcon, that turned out to be just them sending in illusions and partial manifestations to interact with the Beyonder, to assist in his evolution to a sentient being.

So, to put it simply, the statement describing the Beyonder as an infinite-dimensional being wasn't retconned. What was retconned was his characterization as the most powerful entity in existence, which would mean the statements that became invalidated by later storylines would be the ones that directly tie into this characterization (e.g The Beyonder being described as "millions of times more powerful than everything in the multiverse combined"). The infinite-dimensional statement, however, does not fall under that criterion, seeing as it's pretty much a little factoid we're given about the Beyonder that stands independently from other statements done about him.

Combine that with the aforementioned statement of the omni-dimensional nature of the Cosmic Cubes, and I can fairly confidently say the statement is still applicable even to the Post-Retcon version of the Beyonder.

The fifth point in particular treads a bit into the territory of canonicity discussions, so it probably is something you wouldn't be able to evaluate, as you said, but I'm including it for completion's sake. The second point is similar in that it involves a lot of in-verse context, but, again, in there for the sake of completion.

 

[Tarang123]

No. It is far too important for that, and we need a solid highly knowledgeable evaluation regarding if the logic behind the tiering suggestions here is reliable.

It isn't even just the tiering system though. Does DT have the necessary expertise on Marvel's in-verse mechanics to be able to accurately make actual points here without wasting time?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, it's too much for me to go through today in one go, so I will just go through some of it one after another and comment my thoughts as we go.

Right, so, at the moment the profiles for the Marvel Comics Abstracts are all quite bad, and in pretty dire need to repairs. Not only in terms of tiering, but also of... everything, really. This thread will be Part 1 of an attempt at overhauling them. Beginning from the top (The tiers).

About the ratings
Alright, so, before I get to the meat of the issue, I first had to establish some basic facts that build up to it. As is known, the Abstract Entities in Marvel are personifications of the basic concepts that govern reality, being as such embodiments of the universe at large. Eternity is the embodiment of time, Infinity the embodiment of space, Oblivion the embodiment of nonexistence, and so on. However, one thing that should be made clear, before we move on, is that the cosmos which they encompass does not refer to a single 4-dimensional spacetime. To quote the A to Z Marvel Handbook:

"A reality is the combination of spatial and temporal events and the substance of a single universe (And those dimensions associated with said universe)"

One of the most overt examples of this being demonstrated in the comics themselves is in Doctor Strange - Sorcerer Supreme, Issue #54, where Eternity raises his hand, and the narration notes that it encompasses whole universes, in the plural:



Doctor Strange Vol. 2 #13 also displayed the same idea. Here, Eternity refers to Nightmare's Realm as being a part of him as well, commenting that Nightmare "attacked from within" in reference to how he was able to be put to sleep by the power of 1/3 of humanity's dreams. For reference, Nightmare's Realm is referred to as being as vast as earth's universe and beyond space and time in multiple occasions.

The latter part doesn't sound like good evidence. The attack from inside could be interpreted in different ways. There were noted to be recently opened pathways to the dimension, after all, so the dream demon could have gotten inside that way to start an attack from inside.

In fact, the Doctor Strange Vol. 2 #13 panels appear to contradict the idea, as Eternity introduces itself as "The Universe" in this, i.e. strictly singular universe, not universes or reality.

In Strange Tales #147, the narration then goes on to say that Eternity's domain is "all that lies beyond mortal places."

Well, that's just immensely vague flowery language.

The Dark Dimension where Dormammu reigns is also contained in Eternity, as Dormammu refers to himself as being bound by Eternity's will, which prevents him from taking up the mantle of reality's sovereign

Am I missing something or does the page not say that?

,and he furthermore has alternate selves in other realities that are bound by their own Eternity, as shown by... all of What If? #18, really.

I see alternate reality Dormammu, but no mention of Eternity? (Also, I assume you guys have What If scaling and consistency stuff figured out)

The Dark Dimension for the matter is [...] infinite

Isn't that talking about various dimensions, not specifically the dark one?

and has more spatial dimensions than the Earth's plane of existence

Sounds like large extra-dimensions, alright.

, while also being located "many, many infinities away" from it, the two being set apart by an endless gap.

Which is of course not precisely interpretable due to the nature of distance.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, it's too much for me to go through today in one go, so I will just go through some of it one after another and comment my thoughts as we go.

Kek, we talked past each other. See my post above. I compiled all the relevant points in it already.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Kek, we talked past each other. See my post above. I compiled all the relevant points in it already.

Well, alright... that's about half as much I suppose.
Same approach still. I will go through that and comment my thoughts on one thing after the other. That also prevents the kind of ultra-long posts that nobody reads.

With this groundwork set, we can get on with the first of the five main points I want to present here, which is to be found in Secret Defenders, more specifically its later issues, #20 through #25.

In those final issues, we are introduced to Slorioth, a demonic being that supposedly ravaged the earth dimension 15,000 years ago, before he was eventually sealed away beneath the town of Sparksboro by a cabal of ancient wizards. We get to see Slorioth in Issues #22 and #24, but the latter is the one with the more noteworthy statements about him: We are told, firstly, that his tabernacle is a "trans-temporal" realm, and further onwards, he mocks Anthony Druid for being a "foolish, limited, tridimensional creature" before taking him as an avatar. Both of these statements tell us in fairly explicitly terms that Slorioth is a higher-dimensional being existing beyond time.

In isolation, it doesn't really mean that, but I guess the stuff after this is more important.

Nevertheless, the issue ends with Slorioth manifesting on Earth in seemingly physical form and being confronted by the heroes there:



Come Issue #25, though, and things start getting a bit weird: As he fights the thing, the Silver Surfer realizes that Slorioth is in fact a pan-dimensional entity, and that what broke out of the ground in the previous issue was actually just an infinitesimal sliver of his entirety, though one that regardless is still more than strong enough to kick his and everyone else's ass. Later on, Druid, fully christened as Slorioth's avatar, states that "No lone dimensionality could ever hope to contain the gradiose totality I have now embraced." Okay.

And then at the end of the comic, the Living Tribunal is summoned (This scan is something we currently use on the profiles, btw), and reiterates what Druid said above: "The all of Slorioth has ever been too vast for any lone dimensionality!"



I might note, also, that the topic of alternate dimensions never comes up once in this storyline, and before Silver Surfer's initial statement the sole reference to "dimensions" with regards to Slorioth's nature is him deriding humans for being three-dimensional creatures. Therefore it seems entirely clear to me that Slorioth's pan-dimensionality refers to him existing in all spatial dimensions of the verse; his totality being too large for any "lose dimensionality" cements this, as it's pretty much saying that no single dimensional level can contain him, since he spans all of them.

The weird thing about this is that "lone dimensionality", when read like that, would also include... all of them. Like, the space made up of all dimensions would also have a lone dimensionality?

Secret Defenders #25 was published in 1995. Only one year later, in 1996, was published Ghost Rider 2099 Vol. 1 #25, which has this scan in it. You can most likely tell where I'm going with this: Given infinite dimensions, Slorioth's pan-dimensional nature would be High 1-B.

This scan desperately needs some context. Like, from what I can gather that are digital lifeforms? And they intend to be infinite-dimensional as a matrix? Is that stuff extended on in any way?

I think that's the end of argument 1 of 5, yes? This one's luckily quite short. Guess I will do each argument one at a time and wait for the context regarding that Ghost Rider thing to debate that first.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Remember making a thread using those scans a few years back but I got rejected. Just wanted to drop this here.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This scan desperately needs some context. Like, from what I can gather that are digital lifeforms? And they intend to be infinite-dimensional as a matrix? Is that stuff extended on in any way?

I believe it's supposed to be metaphorical.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I believe it's supposed to be metaphorical.

It could be. Infinite-dimensional spaces with infinite-dimensional matrices defined on them can also appear in computation theory stuff. It could be a computational model of intellect, given what is said.

 

[Antvasima]

LuciferX made a deleted comment here that wants us to check if all of the sources are genuinely credible/extremely well-informed about the structure of the cosmology.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The weird thing about this is that "lone dimensionality", when read like that, would also include... all of them. Like, the space made up of all dimensions would also have a lone dimensionality?

Not really, given that the "lone dimensionality" bit implies the statement is being done as a reference to his pan-dimensional nature ("Lone" meaning "single" and "pan" meaning "all," obviously opposite things). You can't exactly exist over a dimension that doesn't exist, so the quote referring to how Slorioth can't be contained by any single dimensionality that exists, but in principle could by the unification of them all, does make perfect sense.

That said, if we read it the way you are suggesting, it wouldn't exactly do much to hurt the point. Would pretty much just shift the statement from a High 1-B statement to a Low 1-A one, since you'd be interpreting Slorioth as being too vast to be contained in any dimensionality period (Including infinite dimensionality, since that's what the verse's showcased), but as above, I don't particularly agree with reading it like that.

This scan desperately needs some context. Like, from what I can gather that are digital lifeforms? And they intend to be infinite-dimensional as a matrix? Is that stuff extended on in any way?

The weird people in the scan are a bunch of hyperadvanced magitek AI living in a hidden corner of Cyberspace, and their gimmick throughout the whole story is that, since they're digital beings, they're dependent on humanity's technological infrastructure to exist; destroy said infrastructure, and they're gone alongside all of Cyberspace.

And so their primary goal is to basically stall humanity's extinction for as long as they can, until they're able to transcend Cyberspace and become self-defining beings living in infinite-dimensional space, after which they'll not be dependent on technology anymore, and as such have no need of protecting humans. That's why the scan has them talk about escaping "this crude environment of silicon and fiber optics."

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

This thread shouldn't be a dead one, please

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Literally just DT and Ultima back and forth tho so we're just waiting for either to respond to the other. This thread doesn't have to be active 24/7.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sorry for the delay. Tuesdays and Thursdays are my busy days.

Not really, given that the "lone dimensionality" bit implies the statement is being done as a reference to his pan-dimensional nature ("Lone" meaning "single" and "pan" meaning "all," obviously opposite things). You can't exactly exist over a dimension that doesn't exist, so the quote referring to how Slorioth can't be contained by any single dimensionality that exists, but in principle could by the unification of them all, does make perfect sense.

That said, if we read it the way you are suggesting, it wouldn't exactly do much to hurt the point. Would pretty much just shift the statement from a High 1-B statement to a Low 1-A one, since you'd be interpreting Slorioth as being too vast to be contained in any dimensionality period (Including infinite dimensionality, since that's what the verse's showcased), but as above, I don't particularly agree with reading it like that.

That he's implied to be dimensional, I agree with.

I'm just not sure how to interpret "lone". Like, you say we should take it as single, but certainly the statement not is supposed to mean that he can just not be contained in any single 1D space, no?

So I guess it's talking about the dimensionality of any one realm that exists or something?

The weird people in the scan are a bunch of hyperadvanced magitek AI living in a hidden corner of Cyberspace, and their gimmick throughout the whole story is that, since they're digital beings, they're dependent on humanity's technological infrastructure to exist; destroy said infrastructure, and they're gone alongside all of Cyberspace.

And so their primary goal is to basically stall humanity's extinction for as long as they can, until they're able to transcend Cyberspace and become self-defining beings living in infinite-dimensional space, after which they'll not be dependent on technology anymore, and as such have no need of protecting humans. That's why the scan has them talk about escaping "this crude environment of silicon and fiber optics."

Hmmmhmmm... I guessed something along those lines, although it doesn't add much context about what the infinite dimensions are supposed to be here. Who knows in which terms a digital lifeforms intended to exist as a matrix in reality understands dimensionality associated with that.

Since this is short, let me look at the next point:

Getting back on track, there are more arguments for the contents of the Universal Abstracts being infinite-dimensional, and the next one revolves around rescaling something that we already accept as being so: The Crossroads of Infinity. To start with, as shown in those panels, it is a realm located within Subspace, "the very edge" of it, in fact. With this established we then move on to Heroes Reborn: The Return, Issue #2, where the Celestial Ashema brings Loki to a realm "beyond the edge of Subspace, to the cusp of Eternity", showing that Eternity contains not only Subspace but also realms beyond it, with this of course being the same storyline where it is shown that everything within Eternity is a figment of his imagination.

I could question the roads of infinity thing, but I guess if it's accepted that's ok.

That aside, I don't follow your reasoning on this demonstrating realms beyond subspace being part of eternity. Wouldn't "the cusp of Eternity" in fact indicate that they are at the edge? And it's not clear whether on the inside or outside of that edge either. Or what a cosmic being would consider "the cusp" in terms of distance.

Also, I'm uncertain about which connection the Crossroads of Infinity even has with something outside the place it exists in.

And then, if the Crossroads of Infinity lead to truly everywhere, as the comic states, wouldn't that naturally suggest that it also leads beyond Eternity, if Eternity isn't all of Marvel? Or, in other words, while the Crossroads can be entered from subspace, wouldn't it need to extend beyond it to reach everywhere?

This allows us to recontextualize some things in different ways that actually provide more coherence to the cosmology: Subspace (Also referred to as the Distortion Area, which the Crossroads of Infinity are the heart of)

Am I missing something or do those panels not mention the Crossroads of Infinity?

has been previously defined as being the barrier between realities, however this seems to refer specifically to it being the space between the dimensions contained within one universe, as it largely is used as a medium to travel to the Negative Zone, which is a a sub-cosmos of Earth-616, also referred to as contained within "hyperspace." Recent comics support this notion, with them defining the Superflow as the space between universes in the larger multiverse, while simultaneously acknowledging the Crossroads of Infinity as still being something that exists. In fewer words: The space between dimensions in a single universe is Subspace / The Crossroads of Infinity, but the space between universes in the wider multiverse is the Superflow.

I don't really see the distinction you make implied in the scans? In the scan where both superflow and Crossroads of Infinity are mentioned, the crossroads are said to go everywhere, while the superflow is ''a kind'' of space between universes (the way that says seems to indicate that it is ''not'' the entire space between universes).

And while subspace seems mostly used to travel to the negative zone, should that be equated to the crossroads of infinity, which lie at the edge of it?

Subspace being contained in one Universal Eternity is also shown in other comics: Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #400 speculates and then confirms that the Celestials inhabit a higher dimension in Hyperspace (Synonymous with Subspace)

Out of curiosity, what does the Hyperspace entry of that say?

and the Celestials, though their origins trace all the way back to the First Firmament, still stick their bases of operations to the confines of singular realities.

Every reality appears to have celestials, but does that truly indicate each has its own hyperspace? In my understanding the armors we see them fighting there are their avatars, no? They could project those from wherever the hyperspace is, no?

I'm also not sure if Subspace in general is to be equated to the part of it with the special property to connect to everywhere i.e. also places outside of it.

In the same storyline, Hyperstorm, despite being one with Hyperspace and having full domain over it, still refers to himself being limited to a single universe, and expresses his wish to extend his reign to other realities, the timeline where he took over the universe being itself treated just one of many possible futures.

He refers himself as slowly conquering a universe and slowly wanting to reach through time as well. Which is weird, as it seems to imply that he doesn't have total control of everything at once yet after all.

Might be a skill issue?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That he's implied to be dimensional, I agree with.

I'm just not sure how to interpret "lone". Like, you say we should take it as single, but certainly the statement not is supposed to mean that he can just not be contained in any single 1D space, no?

So I guess it's talking about the dimensionality of any one realm that exists or something?

The issue is probably that you're mixing together "dimension" and "dimensionality." A dimension is an axis of space. Dimensionality is the condition of being dimensional. Those are two different things. If I was hanging around in a 1-D universe and then hopped into another 1-D universe, I haven't really gone to another dimensionality. However if I was in a 1-D universe and then hopped into a 2-D universe, then, yeah, I did go to another dimensionality.

So, 1-D existence is one dimensionality, 2-D existence is another, and so on.

Hmmmhmmm... I guessed something along those lines, although it doesn't add much context about what the infinite dimensions are supposed to be here. Who knows in which terms a digital lifeforms intended to exist as a matrix in reality understands dimensionality associated with that.

Given the context is that they're talking about the state they will be in once they transcend digital existence entirely, I find it fairly unlikely that the scan is talking about dimensionality in a purely computational sense. They, in-story, work with non-digital beings all the time, so obviously they do understand dimensionality outside of that context.

I don't really see the distinction you make implied in the scans? In the scan where both superflow and Crossroads of Infinity are mentioned, the crossroads are said to go everywhere, while the superflow is ''a kind'' of space between universes (the way that says seems to indicate that it is ''not'' the entire space between universes).

"A kind" there is to put emphasis on the informational nature of it, not the fact it's a space between universes. In the same comic, for reference, when the Superflow is eliminated, all the universes merge into one, so it is indeed the entire space between realities.

And then, if the Crossroads of Infinity lead to truly everywhere, as the comic states, wouldn't that naturally suggest that it also leads beyond Eternity, if Eternity isn't all of Marvel? Or, in other words, while the Crossroads can be entered from subspace, wouldn't it need to extend beyond it to reach everywhere?

You mention this sporadically all throughout the post, so, might as well respond to it in one place. Anyway: Not necessarily, seeing as the role of Subspace and the Crossroads of Infinity is just to serve as a hyperspace leading to any point in reality, which allows for quicker travel between A and B, being the space between them. As said above, when dealing with the wider cosmology, that function is taken up by the Superflow, which is a different realm. In other comics, the Crossroads are likewise described as just "the junction to any point in the universe" (With concerns regarding getting lost in the place also centering around the possibility of arriving, once more, anywhere in the universe), so that 'everywhere' has some caveats that place it under further scrutiny.

That aside, I don't follow your reasoning on this demonstrating realms beyond subspace being part of eternity. Wouldn't "the cusp of Eternity" in fact indicate that they are at the edge? And it's not clear whether on the inside or outside of that edge either. Or what a cosmic being would consider "the cusp" in terms of distance.

Also, I'm uncertain about which connection the Crossroads of Infinity even has with something outside the place it exists in.

"Cusp" as a term implies you're at a point where you're close to something but not at that stage yet. For example if you say "This country is on the cusp of revolution," you're saying revolution is close at hand, but not quite here yet. So interpreting it as referring to the inner edge of Eternity is the better option, I'd say, especially given the same comic shows the space outside Eternity to be a blank void, different from the starry space that it describes as his cusp.

With that said, even if you were to interpret "cusp" as meaning the outer edge of Eternity, it wouldn't really change much, since that word still implies being a part of the thing you're the cusp of (The cusp of a skyscraper, for example, would be the very tip of it). So a realm beyond the edge of Subspace being at the cusp of Eternity would imply it's still a part of him, even if an external one.

Second point: If the Crossroads of Infinity are a region of Subspace, and realms beyond Subspace are considered to not be outside Eternity but simply "at the cusp" of him, then Eternity must encompass Subspace and by extension the Crossroads.

Am I missing something or do those panels not mention the Crossroads of Infinity?

You are, yeah. For the first link: In the second page, it's mentioned that their goal is to ram the floating island the characters are in into the "the heart of the Distortion Area" so that it turns inside out and warps back into their universe. Then in the fourth page, they do just that, and the island is stated to be ramming into the Crossroads of Infinity. The second link is more a visual thing, since those rings in the sky are the main visual trademark of the Crossroads of Infinity in the times it shows up.

Every reality appears to have celestials, but does that truly indicate each has its own hyperspace? In my understanding the armors we see them fighting there are their avatars, no? They could project those from wherever the hyperspace is, no?

Not in this case, since that particular scene is meant to be recounting how the Celestials were being truly wholesale slaughtered, alongside every other cosmic entity.

Out of curiosity, what does the Hyperspace entry of that say?

This.

He refers himself as slowly conquering a universe and slowly wanting to reach through time as well. Which is weird, as it seems to imply that he doesn't have total control of everything at once yet after all.

Might be a skill issue?

Got a chuckle out of me, I'll give you that.

Anyway: Nah, he does indeed hold domain over reality at large, even if his political empire doesn't stretch that far yet. For instance, later on it's stated that he eliminated the Fantastic Four across every plane of reality, and yet that event, too, was something limited to particular timelines. Him wanting to reach through time also, in context, refers to alternate timelines, like the one which the Fantastic Four came from. Like one of the scans says: He is the absolute master of his time and space, but not the master of all times and spaces.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Udlmaster]

You really don't have to bump the thread after a day, each person is busy at various times and it likely takes a while for each to respond.

Give it a week before bumping otherwise it's notifying people who are following the thread for no reason.

 

[Slenderblak]

bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Took 3 days longer than I planned to get back to this, but here we are. Sorry for the delay. Real life and that one other debate I had to spend a lot of time and energy on kept me away.

The issue is probably that you're mixing together "dimension" and "dimensionality." A dimension is an axis of space. Dimensionality is the condition of being dimensional. Those are two different things. If I was hanging around in a 1-D universe and then hopped into another 1-D universe, I haven't really gone to another dimensionality. However if I was in a 1-D universe and then hopped into a 2-D universe, then, yeah, I did go to another dimensionality.

So, 1-D existence is one dimensionality, 2-D existence is another, and so on.

I don't see how that resolves the issue of infinite dimensions theoretically also being a "lone dimensionality", though?

On a side note, why is the guy important again? Sounds like he would at most scale to whatever structure we have otherwise.

Given the context is that they're talking about the state they will be in once they transcend digital existence entirely, I find it fairly unlikely that the scan is talking about dimensionality in a purely computational sense. They, in-story, work with non-digital beings all the time, so obviously they do understand dimensionality outside of that context.

Yet they specifically wish to exist as a matrix of intellect or something. Like, I'm fairly sure they're expressing themselves from a digital perspective there.

"A kind" there is to put emphasis on the informational nature of it, not the fact it's a space between universes. In the same comic, for reference, when the Superflow is eliminated, all the universes merge into one, so it is indeed the entire space between realities.

You mention this sporadically all throughout the post, so, might as well respond to it in one place. Anyway: Not necessarily, seeing as the role of Subspace and the Crossroads of Infinity is just to serve as a hyperspace leading to any point in reality, which allows for quicker travel between A and B, being the space between them. As said above, when dealing with the wider cosmology, that function is taken up by the Superflow, which is a different realm. In other comics, the Crossroads are likewise described as just "the junction to any point in the universe" (With concerns regarding getting lost in the place also centering around the possibility of arriving, once more, anywhere in the universe), so that 'everywhere' has some caveats that place it under further scrutiny.

It's the entire space between thousands of universes going by that first scan.

However, I don't see that as evidence towards the Crossroads being limited to one universe, seeing how the very same comic says they go everywhere right after talking about different realities. (And apparently is something to be accessed from that one reality specifically?)

I don't think the Superflow has the same purpose from what I see, with it being the space between universes and the Crossroads being a path to all places even in them. Here it's also suggested that subspace can link realities, possibly via the Crossroads?

Like, I'm just playing with possibilities here, but indications are made.

"Cusp" as a term implies you're at a point where you're close to something but not at that stage yet. For example if you say "This country is on the cusp of revolution," you're saying revolution is close at hand, but not quite here yet. So interpreting it as referring to the inner edge of Eternity is the better option, I'd say, especially given the same comic shows the space outside Eternity to be a blank void, different from the starry space that it describes as his cusp.

With that said, even if you were to interpret "cusp" as meaning the outer edge of Eternity, it wouldn't really change much, since that word still implies being a part of the thing you're the cusp of (The cusp of a skyscraper, for example, would be the very tip of it). So a realm beyond the edge of Subspace being at the cusp of Eternity would imply it's still a part of him, even if an external one.

Second point: If the Crossroads of Infinity are a region of Subspace, and realms beyond Subspace are considered to not be outside Eternity but simply "at the cusp" of him, then Eternity must encompass Subspace and by extension the Crossroads.

Thing is, the Crossroads are part of Subspace, yet we know it also leads to places outside of subspace, no? (regardless of whether those places are part of the universe or not) So, every place is "next to" it despite not every place being next to subspace (the idea is that you specifically have to go through the Crossroads, after all).

So I'm not sure things are as straightforward as "reality includes subspace, and subspace includes Crossroads", as the Crossroad in turn borders on other stuff. Might be more of a central connection point of reality accessed specifically from Subspace, but not entirely included in common sense.

You are, yeah. For the first link: In the second page, it's mentioned that their goal is to ram the floating island the characters are in into the "the heart of the Distortion Area" so that it turns inside out and warps back into their universe. Then in the fourth page, they do just that, and the island is stated to be ramming into the Crossroads of Infinity. The second link is more a visual thing, since those rings in the sky are the main visual trademark of the Crossroads of Infinity in the times it shows up.

I see. Didn't notice that mention at the end there.

Not in this case, since that particular scene is meant to be recounting how the Celestials were being truly wholesale slaughtered, alongside every other cosmic entity.

So, is the Nexus Hyperspace, too, or are the Celstials there not in their usual environment?

Got a chuckle out of me, I'll give you that.

Anyway: Nah, he does indeed hold domain over reality at large, even if his political empire doesn't stretch that far yet. For instance, later on it's stated that he eliminated the Fantastic Four across every plane of reality, and yet that event, too, was something limited to particular timelines. Him wanting to reach through time also, in context, refers to alternate timelines, like the one which the Fantastic Four came from. Like one of the scans says: He is the absolute master of his time and space, but not the master of all times and spaces.

I.... fail to see how that supports you? If he erases them from all known plane of realities, like multiple versions of them, that doesn't sound at all like he is restricted to one universe? Just that it appears to happen in one flow of time.

Makes it sound more like his limit to one universe is in the same way his empire's limit is not the whole universe at this point. He just as of that time didn't (or can't, maybe) stretch his absolute influence there yet.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't see how that resolves the issue of infinite dimensions theoretically also being a "lone dimensionality", though?

On a side note, why is the guy important again? Sounds like he would at most scale to whatever structure we have otherwise.

Because, in this case, infinite dimensionality would be the set of all dimensionalities in the verse. So it is indeed not a "lone" dimensionality, it's all of them.

Slorioth is relevant because he ranks well below the Abstracts in power. So the line of reasoning is just "Slorioth scales to all dimensionalities in the verse, and is thus High 1-B. The Abstracts are stronger than him, and so they are at that level too."

Yet they specifically wish to exist as a matrix of intellect or something. Like, I'm fairly sure they're expressing themselves from a digital perspective there.

"A matrix of pure intellect" doesn't suggest that they're talking about a digital viewpoint to begin with, and nor would it make sense for them to be saying this when their whole goal in reaching that state is transcending the digital sphere.

I.... fail to see how that supports you? If he erases them from all known plane of realities, like multiple versions of them, that doesn't sound at all like he is restricted to one universe? Just that it appears to happen in one flow of time.

In context, it is exactly that. Look at the wording in the scan: "In every timeline I've ever observed, you are destined to vanish from every known plane of reality." Which is to say that he looked into the future of one timeline, and saw they had vanished from every plane of reality. He looked into the future of another, and saw they had vanished from every plane of reality in that one, too. He looked into another, and saw the same thing. Which is to say that "every known plane of reality" is indeed something within one timeline.

Otherwise he would be basically saying "In every timeline I've seen, you are destined to vanish from every timeline!", which is... silly.

That, coupled with how Hyperstorm talks about being the absolute master of "this time and space" (Right after flaunting his reality warping powers, so we know he was talking about his abilities there) while also openly admitting that the monarchy he's established doesn't stretch across all the universe yet, and it's pretty evident his powers are not over all Earths in spite of his oneness with Hyperspace and dominion over reality.

So, is the Nexus Hyperspace, too, or are the Celstials there not in their usual environment?

The place in which that took place was just called a "nexus of real and wild space" because there was a rift linking the omniverse (Real Space) with the domain above it (Wild Space). Otherwise: We aren't given details on that. We are told that infinite Celestials were being slaughtered in every reality, and then shown a brief montage of the act.

It's the entire space between thousands of universes going by that first scan.

However, I don't see that as evidence towards the Crossroads being limited to one universe, seeing how the very same comic says they go everywhere right after talking about different realities. (And apparently is something to be accessed from that one reality specifically?)

The "thousands of universes" thing is really just the comic being poetic. For reference, the context there is that the true Eternity, the one that personifies the entire multiverse, is being held in chains, and so the Superflow is being eliminated to let all the universes converge into one in an attempt to strengthen him for a bit.

That said, I got to admit I did a bit of an oops there. In context of that scan, what's being referred to as the "Crossroads of Infinity" is Earth-616, the prime reality that serves as the multiverse's central point (Because it's the main continuity Marvel takes place in). You can notice that when he says "But this reality... This reality can dance. It's the crossroads of infinity, the junction to everywhere." Reality "dancing" here referring to how, in Earth-616, the laws of physics are a lot looser than in the reality Maker came from, which is something he exploits to make multiverse-spanning alterations.

So, he isn't talking about the actual Crossroads of Infinity, just making an allusion to them while talking about how Earth-616 works. Later on, the Crossroads are given a mention again, and it does seem to be referring to the actual thing, seeing as they're mentioned as having been created in the sixth iteration of the multiverse (All of Marvel takes place in the Seventh, with the comic above taking place in the Eighth), way before Earth-616 even existed.

And of course, we'd also have to account for how Marvel often has a bunch of idiosyncrasies in that regard. A single universe for instance is referred to as an "All," with other universes then being other Alls, and also as "all there is" or "all of existence" even in stories acknowledging a wider multiverse. So inside of the verse's context, it's feasible for a single universe to be "everywhere" (Hell, that's feasible in any context. We've all said words like "everywhere" and "everything" and "everyone" in situations where we aren't actually using those terms in their broadest senses)

Like, I'm just playing with possibilities here, but indications are made.

Thing is, the Crossroads are part of Subspace, yet we know it also leads to places outside of subspace, no? (regardless of whether those places are part of the universe or not) So, every place is "next to" it despite not every place being next to subspace (the idea is that you specifically have to go through the Crossroads, after all).

So I'm not sure things are as straightforward as "reality includes subspace, and subspace includes Crossroads", as the Crossroad in turn borders on other stuff. Might be more of a central connection point of reality accessed specifically from Subspace, but not entirely included in common sense.

I don't think the Superflow has the same purpose from what I see, with it being the space between universes and the Crossroads being a path to all places even in them. Here it's also suggested that subspace can link realities, possibly via the Crossroads?

We don't know, no. For instance, the Negative Zone is the universe that most often shows up in connection to the Crossroads of Infinity, and it's explicitly inside of Hyperspace. So the idea is more that Subspace is a bulk containing several realms, and the Crossroads are a point within Subspace where all those realms are accessible.

Playing off of the "crossroads" description, the Crossroads of Infinity would be the middle point of an intersection between roads. The roads obviously being the universes, and Subspace being the wider terrain they're all in. That's why I say that Subspace and the Superflow can't really co-exist on the same level of the cosmology: Because when you go into the wider multiverse, the "terrain" isn't Subspace anymore, it's all just the Superflow (Which is indeed what's used to warp between Earths, by the way)

With that said, given you went straight to addressing my answer to the second point, I assume you conceded that Subspace is inside of Eternity going by those scans? Asking for clarity's sake.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And of course, we'd also have to account for how Marvel often has a bunch of idiosyncrasies in that regard. A single universe for instance is referred to as an "All," with other universes then being other Alls, and also as "all there is" or "all of existence" even in stories acknowledging a wider multiverse. So inside of the verse's context, it's feasible for a single universe to be "everywhere" (Hell, that's feasible in any context. We've all said words like "everywhere" and "everything" and "everyone" in situations where we aren't actually using those terms in their broadest senses)

Interesting

Because, in this case, infinite dimensionality would be the set of all dimensionalities in the verse. So it is indeed not a "lone" dimensionality, it's all of them.

Slorioth is relevant because he ranks well below the Abstracts in power. So the line of reasoning is just "Slorioth scales to all dimensionalities in the verse, and is thus High 1-B. The Abstracts are stronger than him, and so they are at that level too."

That is IMO a weird way to put it, but I guess let's say it's just "all" with however many those happen to be in this case.

However, if I followed the arguments to this point correctly, even the abstracts aren't covering all spatial dimensions at once? Like, you mentioned alternate reality Eternity and stuff, who would have more spatial realms. If so, that recontextualizes the "all dimensionalities" statement to basically mean "all within the scope of one Eternity" or some other more limited scale, no? Otherwise, he would be bigger than the abstracts supposed to scale above him.

"A matrix of pure intellect" doesn't suggest that they're talking about a digital viewpoint to begin with, and nor would it make sense for them to be saying this when their whole goal in reaching that state is transcending the digital sphere.

It doesn't sound to me like they are necessarily talking of a regular physical existence. That they wish to leave the digital sphere does not mean that they become regular physical beings are start to think as such.

In context, it is exactly that. Look at the wording in the scan: "In every timeline I've ever observed, you are destined to vanish from every known plane of reality." Which is to say that he looked into the future of one timeline, and saw they had vanished from every plane of reality. He looked into the future of another, and saw they had vanished from every plane of reality in that one, too. He looked into another, and saw the same thing. Which is to say that "every known plane of reality" is indeed something within one timeline.

Otherwise he would be basically saying "In every timeline I've seen, you are destined to vanish from every timeline!", which is... silly.

That, coupled with how Hyperstorm talks about being the absolute master of "this time and space" (Right after flaunting his reality warping powers, so we know he was talking about his abilities there) while also openly admitting that the monarchy he's established doesn't stretch across all the universe yet, and it's pretty evident his powers are not over all Earths in spite of his oneness with Hyperspace and dominion over reality.

I really don't understand how you come to that conclusion.

To be specific, I agree that he vanished from all realities in each timeline, meaning the timelines in this context contain whatever in this context are planes of realities. However, I don't see how that supports your point as we have not established that the timelines spoken of in this context are even within eternity.

Meanwhile, all you say regarding Hyperstorm's power being limited points to the opposite conclusion to me. If his dominion doesn't stretch even through the whole universe yet, clearly it doesn't stretch throughout all planes of reality yet either. However, if he can erase someone from all planes of reality, clearly it isn't an issue of his power categorically being incapable of reaching those. What it sounds like to me is that we are talking about a developing power here. I.e. he has taken possession of the Hyperspace but is not yet able to use the power to even instantly take control over just the universe, despite that being clearly within the scope of what it should be able to do. I was not entirely kidding when I said it sounds like a skill issue. It appears to me like Hyperstorm has greater power than he is at that time capable of fully employed, otherwise, the universe would already be his. In which case his showings can't be considered a limit on the scale of Hyperspace.

The place in which that took place was just called a "nexus of real and wild space" because there was a rift linking the omniverse (Real Space) with the domain above it (Wild Space). Otherwise: We aren't given details on that. We are told that infinite Celestials were being slaughtered in every reality, and then shown a brief montage of the act.

Wait, so this was happening in some modified irregular space to begin with? Then that can hardly give us any conclusion regarding regular Hyperspace.

The "thousands of universes" thing is really just the comic being poetic. For reference, the context there is that the true Eternity, the one that personifies the entire multiverse, is being held in chains, and so the Superflow is being eliminated to let all the universes converge into one in an attempt to strengthen him for a bit.

That said, I got to admit I did a bit of an oops there. In context of that scan, what's being referred to as the "Crossroads of Infinity" is Earth-616, the prime reality that serves as the multiverse's central point (Because it's the main continuity Marvel takes place in). You can notice that when he says "But this reality... This reality can dance. It's the crossroads of infinity, the junction to everywhere." Reality "dancing" here referring to how, in Earth-616, the laws of physics are a lot looser than in the reality Maker came from, which is something he exploits to make multiverse-spanning alterations.

So they use the same term to refer to two unrelated things? That only makes the issue vastly more confusing. Are you sure other universes than Earth-616 also have a Crossroads to Infinity?

So, he isn't talking about the actual Crossroads of Infinity, just making an allusion to them while talking about how Earth-616 works. Later on, the Crossroads are given a mention again, and it does seem to be referring to the actual thing, seeing as they're mentioned as having been created in the sixth iteration of the multiverse (All of Marvel takes place in the Seventh, with the comic above taking place in the Eighth), way before Earth-616 even existed.

You mean to say the junction to everywhere and the crossroads of infinity are the same? And if the sixth multiverse created it, not Eternity...

We don't know, no. For instance, the Negative Zone is the universe that most often shows up in connection to the Crossroads of Infinity, and it's explicitly inside of Hyperspace. So the idea is more that Subspace is a bulk containing several realms, and the Crossroads are a point within Subspace where all those realms are accessible.

Playing off of the "crossroads" description, the Crossroads of Infinity would be the middle point of an intersection between roads. The roads obviously being the universes, and Subspace being the wider terrain they're all in. That's why I say that Subspace and the Superflow can't really co-exist on the same level of the cosmology: Because when you go into the wider multiverse, the "terrain" isn't Subspace anymore, it's all just the Superflow (Which is indeed what's used to warp between Earths, by the way)

With that said, given you went straight to addressing my answer to the second point, I assume you conceded that Subspace is inside of Eternity going by those scans? Asking for clarity's sake.

The intersection between roads scan is the best scan yet lol

Honestly, the interchangeability of terms makes this so much harder. Like, the superflow goes between universes by your last scan, yet subspace is also known to connect universes. I assume you suggest that contextually "universe" should be interpreted differently in each case. Although this scan says "infinite number of space-time continuums... even realities", making a separation between the two as well...

Now, what the intersection of roads metaphor is concerned I mostly agree. Of course, it appears as if it doesn't literally crossroads, as the realms connected should be separate of each other, so I don't think that indicates anything.

As for your question: At least in a sense. I'm not yet excluding the possibility of it simultaneously (possibly partially) existing in multiple realities given its connection properties, though.

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

Dt what's ur view on these upgrades so far, I assume you are indifferent rn right?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That is IMO a weird way to put it, but I guess let's say it's just "all" with however many those happen to be in this case.

However, if I followed the arguments to this point correctly, even the abstracts aren't covering all spatial dimensions at once? Like, you mentioned alternate reality Eternity and stuff, who would have more spatial realms. If so, that recontextualizes the "all dimensionalities" statement to basically mean "all within the scope of one Eternity" or some other more limited scale, no? Otherwise, he would be bigger than the abstracts supposed to scale above him.

He wouldn't. Slorioth would only scale above the Abstracts if other universes had greater dimensionalities than the ones found in Earth-616 (Or more generally if realms outside of and confirmably above reality were dimensional in nature). We are, however, never told that, so it's not a possibility that's worth considering. Not only is it never stated, but we also know it can't be the case, since Earth-616 is the prime timeline and the template on which all the others are based. It's the trunk of the tree, as it were, so all realities are basically carbon-copies of it in all but the events taking place in them.

The only one you can maybe argue is another trunk entirely, and not just a branch, is Earth-1610, the Ultimate Marvel continuity, but even that one is demonstrably also equal in size to Earth-616, since one time they were set on a collision course that ultimately destroyed them both.

Truth be told, Slorioth belonging to all dimensionalities with no stated caveat and yet being a resident of a single Earth is really just evidence that dimensionality is something entirely contained in individual realities. Which makes sense; after all, they're all contained and separated by the Superflow, which is a space that's conceptual and metaphorical (Wacky-ass scene). Very much not a realm that's dimensional in nature. Ditto for other layers above it (Which are fully mapped out btw)

So, if all universes have the same dimensionalities, the same size, and dimensionality in its entirety is something that's part of a universe to begin with, with the realms above reality being in turn non-dimensional in nature, then what you're saying is largely either untrue or just not an issue. Your thinking here is probably that, if Slorioth is to exist in all dimensionalities, then he has to exist in the dimensions of all universes too, which isn't really the case: Say you have Universe A and Universe B, both of which are 8-D, and both of which are separated by a dimensionless void. Being 8-D in Universe A means I cover all its dimensions, but it doesn't mean I need to extend over all the dimensions of Universe B too, because each world has its own independent set of dimensions.

It doesn't sound to me like they are necessarily talking of a regular physical existence. That they wish to leave the digital sphere does not mean that they become regular physical beings are start to think as such.

It does, however, mean that they would become non-digital in nature, and that's enough for my purposes, since the main utility of that scan is establishing that, with infinite-dimensional space explicitly existing, Slorioth would then exist as an infinite-dimensional being (Frankly I could do that with other scans, like the one that the third point centers around, but I'm really lazy and this was the one that needed the least explaining tbh). Slorioth himself isn't a material entity, of course, but that doesn't really matter; a higher-dimensional being or space being incorporeal doesn't bar it from Tier 2/1 when the verse treats it as superior to the lower-dimensional space anyway, which is the case here: Slorioth's 3-dimensional body is explicitly just an infinitesimal fragment of his true form, for instance.

I really don't understand how you come to that conclusion.

To be specific, I agree that he vanished from all realities in each timeline, meaning the timelines in this context contain whatever in this context are planes of realities. However, I don't see how that supports your point as we have not established that the timelines spoken of in this context are even within eternity.

Meanwhile, all you say regarding Hyperstorm's power being limited points to the opposite conclusion to me. If his dominion doesn't stretch even through the whole universe yet, clearly it doesn't stretch throughout all planes of reality yet either. However, if he can erase someone from all planes of reality, clearly it isn't an issue of his power categorically being incapable of reaching those. What it sounds like to me is that we are talking about a developing power here. I.e. he has taken possession of the Hyperspace but is not yet able to use the power to even instantly take control over just the universe, despite that being clearly within the scope of what it should be able to do. I was not entirely kidding when I said it sounds like a skill issue. It appears to me like Hyperstorm has greater power than he is at that time capable of fully employed, otherwise, the universe would already be his. In which case his showings can't be considered a limit on the scale of Hyperspace.

We haven't established that the timelines in question are within Eternity, no, because they aren't. Each timeline in Marvel is one Eternity. However it does showcase that his power stretches across the whole of his reality (All known planes of reality, in fact), and yet is incapable of reaching through into other timelines, then his talk of not being the absolute monarch of the universe yet doesn't really inform the scale of his Reality Warping abilities, especially given he claims the latter do make him the absolute master of his timeline despite openly admitting that his empire isn't quite at that point yet.

Honestly, though, given that you seem to have already agreed with Subspace being contained in a single Eternity, and your issues largely have to do with whether this means the Crossroads of Infinity also are, do you mind pushing this sub-point aside for now? It's largely about something we already agreed on and I feel it's gonna sprawl out into one of those textwall debates that nobody reads real quick at this rate.

Wait, so this was happening in some modified irregular space to begin with? Then that can hardly give us any conclusion regarding regular Hyperspace.

We don't know, really. The space that the viewpoint character there was observing only had the irregularity of there being a portal to outside of the omniverse next to it. As said, though, the slaughter of the Celestials was going on in all realities, and we don't see much of it for obvious reasons.

You mean to say the junction to everywhere and the crossroads of infinity are the same? And if the sixth multiverse created it, not Eternity..

Yeah. They're all the same being, pretty much. Just different incarnations/rebirths of the omniversal personification. So what the Sixth Cosmos contained, Eternity also contains.

So they use the same term to refer to two unrelated things? That only makes the issue vastly more confusing. Are you sure other universes than Earth-616 also have a Crossroads to Infinity?

It's an isolated instance and not really a constant thing, since that particular author is a continuity nerd who really likes making callbacks to old stuff. Basically, in this specific context, it's talking about Earth-616. But, say, here, here, here and here (Read: Everywhere else), it's talking about the specific realm.

As for your question: I'm... quite sure, yes. There just isn't really evidence to say otherwise, in my view.

Honestly, the interchangeability of terms makes this so much harder. Like, the superflow goes between universes by your last scan, yet subspace is also known to connect universes. I assume you suggest that contextually "universe" should be interpreted differently in each case. Although this scan says "infinite number of space-time continuums... even realities", making a separation between the two as well...

Now, what the intersection of roads metaphor is concerned I mostly agree. Of course, it appears as if it doesn't literally crossroads, as the realms connected should be separate of each other, so I don't think that indicates anything.

You're right on the mark on that point, yeah. As we've seen, Eternity isn't comprised of just the Earth Dimension, but also of multiple other planes (All the weird other realms that do exist separately from the normal universe but don't technically count as being other numbered Earths, pretty much). Take the Negative Zone itself, for instance: It's stated to be a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one. We know that Hyperspace separates it and the Earth Dimension (And that the Negative Zone is very much outside of the Earth Dimension), so the latter can't be the "existing universe" containing it, and it's also often made clear that the Negative Zone and our universe are equal in size, so the "pocket" designation should be analyzed more carefully too.

That is to say, both it and the Earth Dimension are technically "pocket universes" (Really just full-blown universes) resting inside of the larger reality of Earth-616 as a whole, alongside the aforementioned other realms, and Hyperspace is then the space between and around all those worlds. So my point is that Subspace being the link to other universes and realities doesn't necessarily suggest it stretches beyond Eternity, because he already contains multiple realities in himself. Hell, The Negative Zone itself has been described as an alternate reality before (Second scan's context is that they're trapped in it. From the same comic as the "infinite number of space-time continuums... even realities" one, so that shows that, although "alternate realities" there are being somehow distinguished from other space-time continuums, they're not necessarily referring to realms outside of one Eternity)

 

[Lewis]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it definitely isn't reliable at all in terms of consistency, as both of us know, but stop trolling please.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Don't derail this.