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No.
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Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- 1,092
- 198
I think it does, because if a high tier character like Gas needs 20 minutes to get to where Goku is. No matter what the distance is. The sextillion to septillion xc gets negated, since no matter what the distance is. He should have blitzed the universe.
thetechmaster36
He/Him- 1,830
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laughs in Gas being manga-only
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No.
Manga doesn't affect anime.
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Pretty sure the speed of Gas and DBS as a whole is off-topic
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Can you open it after this thread?
ZetaMarishi
He/Him- 616
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If it's bigger, it's not that much bigger. Realistically, they're probably of a similar size. Both of them were called small planets by Freeza or his men.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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Nope, because manga DBS is different than anime DBS
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
- 4,334
Ok then, I apologize, but even then, we can still estimate a lowballed timeframe and use it. This isn't completely invalid
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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Also, In this scan:
1) Mr. Popo tells Goku he must move faster than lightning several times to complete his training
2) With travel speed alone, Mr. Popo can blitz Goku, who can react to attacks faster than Roshi's moon busting Kamehameha (as Goku > King Piccolo > Roshi)
Another instance of inconsistencies when they repeatedly surpass the supposed speeds for DBZ even in OG DB
1) Mr. Popo tells Goku he must move faster than lightning several times to complete his training
2) With travel speed alone, Mr. Popo can blitz Goku, who can react to attacks faster than Roshi's moon busting Kamehameha (as Goku > King Piccolo > Roshi)
Another instance of inconsistencies when they repeatedly surpass the supposed speeds for DBZ even in OG DB
- 31,404
- 27,703
- Thread starter
- #413
Whilst that's not a bad statement exactly, "faster than lightning" can be a very typical hyperbole in fiction. Mr. Popo doesn't have to be speaking literally there.
Objectively analyzing it, Mr. Popo saying "Be as calm as the sky and move faster than lightning" isn't 100% proof that he was moving faster than lightning.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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Proof that this is hyperbole? Mr. Popo isn't shown to be the type of character that uses hyperbole like that.
Besides, Mr. Popo also had another feat of blitzing Goku with movement speed alone, which is impossible to do for him with just Hypersonic speed, as Goku's reactions are much much faster
This is also consistent with Goku outspeeding Piccolo's ki attack and directing back to him in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, where Goku already surpassed Popo and Kami in speed
- 31,404
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- Thread starter
- #415
Proof that he's being literal? This goes both ways dude, I'm just saying there are countless times in fiction where the phrase "faster than lightning" comes up and it doesn't mean literal MHS+ speeds.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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He's being literal since he's always shown to be literal with what he says. He doesn't overestimates himself or brags about stuff. When he teached Goku he literally told him what he needs to do, and nothing else
Also, as I said, he blitzed Goku, who can react to Relativistic attacks, with just movement speed, which supports him being able to move at such speeds when he literally demonstrated that
Also helping is that Goku later outspeeds Piccolo's attack and redirects it back to him, despite Piccolo's attack being faster than Roshi's Kamehameha
Now that I explained my points, where's your proof for hyperbole? From the series? Other fictional verses are irrelevant to the disscusion
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- Thread starter
- #417
Not being the type of person who brags doesn't prevent a person from using metaphors.
As for the Ki blast stuff, I'll get to that later.
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Nah, anime needs no revisiting other than the re-scaling and whatnot, but this is not the topic of this thread, so leave it out.
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,169
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He would be like " Wait they are faster than light and Universal? He cant even destroy a planet" hahah. Btw. he refuses to discuss powescaling debates apparently.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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Popo isn't the type of guy to use metaphors either. He's always shown to be pretty literal with what he says or means
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If by rescaling you account for the near 500 million times difference between the best feats (Mid Quadrillions) and the top tiers (>245 Septillion), then sure.
But that's not the point of this thread so I'll shush now
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,169
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That's how the Verse works.
With that being said , I think it's best if we seperate long distance flightspeed and combat speed with flight speed being treated as a minimum for combat speed.
If the anime adapts the manga 1:1 , there will be problems.
I mean even if they don't adapt it 100%, the plot point of Gas not being there so Goku can find a way to beat him still has to happen. And if Gas doesn't cross the distance in an instant , the calculated speed is wrong. We won't have any of that problems if the seperate it right away.
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I believe that's an issue of the multipliers going to wack from DBS onwards (The multipliers even on their lonesome go well beyond Whis's hundred quadrillion feat), me personally I'd have just kept the Super Dense Ball as is without using multipliers, but yeah, that's an issue for another time.
That or they have hundred-quadrillion c flight speed and hundred septillion combat speed, that's what DDM was proposing for Super specifically, but then there's the issue of maximum-power travel speed being straight up comparable to combat speed so...
Yeah, you're right, it's not part of this thread.
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,286
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These feats are all in short bursts, there's no proof that they can travel that fast for long distances.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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No. There's no proof they can do it only in short bursts. None of you managed to prove it's only for short bursts other than one scan that has been misinterperted
Normally, if they really could only do it for short distances, they'd mention that it is tirimg to move this fast for long which is why they can only do it in short bursts. Unfortunately for you, this never happened anywhere
Also, I gave several examples where they go considerable distances while avoid or outspeeding attacks, and I also mentioned why it'd be impossible for them to even start running away from attacks when their supposed travel speed is this much lower than reaction/combat speed, and we know that's not the case. Hell, when Frieza attacks SSJ Goku, not only Goku travels very far while avoiding the attack, but also never get caught once
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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I can do that later, though there's also the feat of Goku and Jackie Chun having their entire fight in what the audience concieve as "instantly", meaning they moved toward each other and then back away before any of them could even react or register what going on
- 31,404
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- Thread starter
- #429
That would definitely fall under combat speed I believe, not flight speed.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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No. Combat speed is when they throw punches and ki attacks.
However them running toward and away from each other at the start at the exchange and the end would fall under travel speed, as this is just them simply running
Considering they crossed tens of meters in an extremely short timeframe, that does mean they can travel very fast
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- Thread starter
- #432
Apologies for not posting frequently here. I've been working on compiling the calcs that would be relevant to this thread to help my case, and I'm focusing on gathering anti-feats that involve the character's maximum flight speed, not just feats that could be dismissed as casual or suppressed.
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- Thread starter
- #433
Okay, so just to double-check before continuing on with the thread, the only speed calc we use for the Dragon Ball Z manga is this one:
From the original Dragon Ball manga, the speed calcs we use are:
These are all the speed calcs actually used on the profiles from Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z, right?
- Piccolo destroys the Moon (Attack Speed): 0.54c (Relativistic+)
From the original Dragon Ball manga, the speed calcs we use are:
- Nam's Combat Speed: Mach 1.055 (Supersonic)
- Tao Pai Pai's Travel Speed: Mach 20.778 (Hypersonic+)
- Master Roshi destroys the Moon (Attack Speed): 0.0986c (Sub-Relativistic+)
These are all the speed calcs actually used on the profiles from Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z, right?
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Correct.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Correct.²
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,412
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Yeah I think only these are used as of now, though Roshi's feat may need a recalc since the video used for the feat doesn't exist anymore
- 31,404
- 27,703
- Thread starter
- #437
Okay, thank you both, will be posting an update soon.
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- Thread starter
- #438
Okay, here are the list of calcs I want to add to the verse page:
In case anyone's gut reaction is "Most of these calcs can't be right, they're laughably slow." There are multiple points of support from the series itself:
If anyone has some counter-points that support the characters being MFTL aside from just the current multipliers... I'll wait for them.
At this point if we don't revise Dragon Ball Z speed, then we're just being deliberately ignorant and inaccurate. There's never been so many things that go against our current ratings for a verse than this; if anyone wants to pretend that the characters in the Dragon Ball Z era have MFTL speed... then what could possibly convince you otherwise if not all this?
- Dende's Flight Speed: 68.16 m/s (Subsonic)
- Goku's Travel Speed (Pre-Training): 95.129376 m/s (Subsonic)
- Piccolo's, Tien's Yamcha's and Chiaotzu's Travel Speed: Mach 1.298 (Supersonic)
- Gohan's Flight Speed (Pre-Power Boost): Mach 1.32 (Supersonic)
- Krillin's Flight Speed (Post-Power Boost): Mach 1.987 (Supersonic)
- Goku's Travel Speed (Post-Training): Mach 16.87 (Hypersonic+)
- Krillin's Flight Speed (Cell Saga): Mach 21.69 (Hypersonic+)
- SSJ Gotenks' Flight Speed: Mach 5197.52 (Massively Hypersonic+)
In case anyone's gut reaction is "Most of these calcs can't be right, they're laughably slow." There are multiple points of support from the series itself:
- Krillin stated that he would need his full speed to outpace Bulma's plane and meet her halfway on her journey. Bulma's plane which takes well over 20 minutes to fly a few thousands of kilometres.
- It took Piccolo roughly 29 minutes to fly from Kami's lookout to where Gotenks was waiting for him. Piccolo was in a hurry.
- In the Namek arc, even when Krillin flies at full speed to the Great Elder's house, he can't make the journey in a single trip and needs to sleep before starting again.
- Goku warns Gohan not to fly at full speed as they're travelling to the meet-up point to fight the Androids... If Gohan truly has even Rel+ speed at this point, then he'd be able to travel anywhere on Earth in a second, and we can agree surely that the characters can keep up their max strength for more than a second. Since he cannot, then his maximum speed must be far slower.
- Countless times the characters have taken several minutes to fly to places, and definitely when they had no reason to hold themselves back; see Frieza trying to get to the Dragon Balls to attain immortality with the Z Fighters having enough time to summon Porunga have a couple wishes, or Piccolo being wished to Namek and flying to the fight and being several minutes late.
- Several characters get tagged by the Solar Flare which is a technique that radiates light. Nowhere is it stated that the light gets faster if a character is more powerful, just that it'll be brighter. It is pure headcanon to assume they're firing FTL light. Such characters that get tagged by this include Frieza, Piccolo, Trunks and Krillin (twice). The characters sometimes even have time to react to their opponent putting their hands up to activate the Solar Flare... but still fail to react to the light itself or defend themselves from it.
If anyone has some counter-points that support the characters being MFTL aside from just the current multipliers... I'll wait for them.
At this point if we don't revise Dragon Ball Z speed, then we're just being deliberately ignorant and inaccurate. There's never been so many things that go against our current ratings for a verse than this; if anyone wants to pretend that the characters in the Dragon Ball Z era have MFTL speed... then what could possibly convince you otherwise if not all this?
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Not a counter point, but there's some good ki blast speeds like PC's kamehameha against Goku, SS2 Gohan kamehameha against PC and Buutenks's ki blast tunneling through the Earth.
Besides that I believe the only other lightspeed things confirmed in-universe is from that one French/Spanish manga guidebook that called the Death Beams lightspeed (though that would once again contradict MFTL Dragon Ball since only Goku reacted to that attack).
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- Thread starter
- #440
Yeah, those feats you've mentioned are all Sub-Relativistic if we were generous and assume they took a single second each. Would be slower if we went by the anime's version of them.
