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Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)

Yeah I don't see the reason of bringing Whis or DBS into this at first, from what I understood, this is more related to DBZ Manga where I do believe their flight speed isn't as impressive as their "other speeds", the different showed between them is...very clear cut going by what the OP has, although I agree some of them aren't really good examples

Ki may enhance all of your stats, but that doesn't make them equal if the base of said stats is different, let's say I have 5 for Strength and 10 for Speed, and Ki adds +5 for both, they are equally enhanced, but not equal overall, so that also doesn't work to cover the examples here

Now, I gotta ask, what is the OP suggestion for Flight Speed in case this gets accepted ?
 
Now, I gotta ask, what is the OP suggestion for Flight Speed in case this gets accepted ?
Click to expand...

We'd have to calc all of the major feats involving travel speed that come up in the manga and see if we can get some consistent results. I haven't got any specific figures yet.
 
Damage3245 said:
Okay, what about the times they weren't suppressed?
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Like when? Having an active aura does not indicate that they were using their full-power, especially given the context of avoiding detection on Namek.

Damage3245 said:
I think the manga takes higher priority than the Daizenshuu. But also, I don't think that the Daizenshuu explicitly disagrees with me anyway.
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I am pretty sure it does disagree with you, given that most of your examples aren't particularly good to use either, as having an aura doesn't mean anything with regards to whether you're on overdrive or not, and given the context behind most of the feats (Like avoiding detection on Namek, Vegeta not being serious about having to travel to cities instantaneously and whatnot).
 
KLOL506 said:
Like when? Having an active aura does not indicate that they were using their full-power, especially given the context of avoiding detection on Namek.
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Exactly. Unless you can prove that they used their full power when going at these speeds, then you can't simply assume that without anything to back it up.

I might as well say that they only used 0.000001% of their full power when going this fast and it's just as valid since neither of us have proofs
 
yeah I agree with this

everyone keeps bringing up “textbook flight speed” but ignore quick bursts.

Their flight feats don’t seem to match their ki blast speed outside of quick bursts
 
Like when? Having an active aura does not indicate that they were using their full-power, especially given the context of avoiding detection on Namek.
Click to expand...

Why not? Can you point out a time where the characters had an active aura on and were stated to be suppressing their powers?

Exactly. Unless you can prove that they used their full power when going at these speeds, then you can't simply assume that without anything to back it up.
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Gohan and Krillin suppressing their Chi = No aura.

Gohan and Krillin speeding up = Aura.

----

Dende and Krillin flying while holding back = No aura.

Krillin flying all-out = Aura.

I don't have to prove that they were at 110% maximum all-energy-concentrated in one go... I just think that this is them unsuppressed and not holding themself back.

We see in the Dragon Ball series several times when characters stop holding themselves back and power-up, they gain an aura.

I might as well say that they only used 0.000001% of their full power when going this fast and it's just as valid since neither of us have proofs
Click to expand...

You could say that, but I think you'd have even less basis then me.
 
I'd like to point out that:
This, on top of the previously mentioned anti-feats, leads me to believe that the speed of Flight is slower than combat speed, likely due to the fact that the user is essentially radiating Ki under their bodies rather than unleashing it in its pure form from their palms and because of the laws of aerodynamics directly acting against them, possibly reducing their potential maximum speed.
 
While I do agree in theory that flight speed is commonly nothing compared to combat speed and reactions, there are still a lot of other things to consider and DB character occasionally demonstrate flight speeds comparable to attack speeds albeit usually in the heat of battle at short bursts. Also, I don't think using the absolute slowest portrayals of flight speed such as taking 5 hours to travel 30 walk days (Which roughly translates to only 144x walking speed velocity) when Kid Goku has managed to swim much faster than that towards the 22 Budokai. Traversing Snake Way is also well into High Hypersonic is still something Goku did before Namek. I might have to disagree in execution.

Also, Null brought up a scan that basically equalizes flight speed with Ki blast velocity iirc. I know he was attempting to equalize all categories of speed but I shall look at details. Though the catch is that it only merges Ki Flight with Ki blast velocity and what not; not so much combat speed and reaction being equal but that's usually far above both of those. And it's actually extremely consistent for the speed in which characters punch to be above power beams and ki blasts; such as the fact that Fusion Zamasu blitzed Goku and Vegeta without even trying in melee combat but his Kamahamaha waves were able to be intercepted and dodged without too much sweat. If anything, Piccolo's Relativistic+ attack speed should scale to Ki blast attack speed and flight speed with combat speed and reactions being well above those. And enhancing Ki also enhances attack speed clearly.

But anyway, I see what other staff members think. And don't think flight speed could ever properly be indexed if we separated it from the attack speed and would prefer if we either don't make ratings for flight speed and just say speed ratings are for attack speed and short burst flight speed with higher combat speed. But overall prefer if we didn't really make major changes and lean towards preferring KLOL's take.
 
Also, I don't think using the absolute slowest portrayals of flight speed such as taking 5 hours to travel 30 walk days (Which roughly translates to only 144x walking speed velocity) when Kid Goku has managed to swim much faster than that towards the 22 Budokai. Traversing Snake Way is also well into High Hypersonic is still something Goku did before Namek. I might have to disagree in execution.
Click to expand...

Exact figures haven't been proposed yet, so the execution of how we approach this on the profiles is yet to be set in stone.

The point of this thread is so that we acknowledge that there are multiple instances of flight speed which are heavily different to our combat speed ratings, and then we'll see what we can do to address this on the profiles. It seems like you agree that some of these feats & statements are valid at least, but are leaning against indexing them on the profiles.
 
Damage3245 said:
Why not? Can you point out a time where the characters had an active aura on and were stated to be suppressing their powers?
Click to expand...
Goku did that when powering up in the Cell Saga. He explicably states that he didn't used his full power

Cell himself do the same thing as he powers up against Goku, with aura, but he didn't used his full power, so no, you can't just assume stuff without proof just to fit what you want
 
KingTempest said:
yeah I agree with this

everyone keeps bringing up “textbook flight speed” but ignore quick bursts.

Their flight feats don’t seem to match their ki blast speed outside of quick bursts
Click to expand...
Proof? Because they are pretty consistently able to outpace each others' ki attacks (Raditz VS Goku, Frieza VS Vegeta, Goku VS Perfect Cell and many more), and there's nothing that indicates it can only be used for a short while, and rather you just assume without any proof
 
Yeah I can agree with this, at least with the previously mentioned guide book that takes a lot of effort and things like drag effects them. Something like "MFTL+, X flight speed" is just a reverse of our general combat vs travel speed splits.

Also them being demonstrably much worse in the source material > everything else
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, Null brought up a scan that basically equalizes flight speed with Ki blast velocity iirc.
Click to expand...
It doesn't really say that in my view
It’s a basic ki manipulation technique, on par with the ki blast
Click to expand...
Its saying that flight is a basic manipulation of ki, like with a generic ki blast
 
Thanks for commenting so far everyone.

Thus far it seems like SamanPatou, KingTempest and Qawsedf234 agree. AKM and DDM acknowledge that flight speed is portrayed as inferior to typical combat speed but don't 100% agree.

KLOL506 and CloverDragon03 disagree.

Will try and address other points as this goes on.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
In that case the same thing happens. Goku can't fly teleport to the Supreme Kai Planet and back for Vegeta before the blast from Buu impacts the Earth and kills them all. Supreme Kai needs to go there to save Vegeta.
Click to expand...
No, Goku can't go back and fly down to save piccolo and the others the catch up again with vegeta because the ball is directly behind them. You completely ignored how they are barely matching the balls speed with flight speed.
 
Damage3245 said:
Why not? Can you point out a time where the characters had an active aura on and were stated to be suppressing their powers?



Gohan and Krillin suppressing their Chi = No aura.

Gohan and Krillin speeding up = Aura.

----

Dende and Krillin flying while holding back = No aura.

Krillin flying all-out = Aura.

I don't have to prove that they were at 110% maximum all-energy-concentrated in one go... I just think that this is them unsuppressed and not holding themself back.
Click to expand...
Except it isn't, because they run the risk of getting detected by scouters and others who can sense power levels, notably Vegeta as we're shown in the Namek Saga.

Damage3245 said:
We see in the Dragon Ball series several times when characters stop holding themselves back and power-up, they gain an aura.
Click to expand...
And that Aura is generally shown to be considerably more destructive than just going at maximum speed with no holds barred.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
But they weren't matching the speed. It was rapidly gaining on him which is why he couldn't teleport back in time to get the others.
Click to expand...
That's literally not the reason, this is
No, Goku can't go back and fly down to save piccolo and the others the catch up again with vegeta because the ball is directly behind them.
Click to expand...
It was gaining on them but they were still moving at relatively the same speed.
 
Except it isn't, because they run the risk of getting detected by scouters and others who can sense power levels, notably Vegeta as we're shown in the Namek Saga.
Click to expand...

But... you're ignoring that they were caught. Krillin sped up, had his aura on, and Vegeta sensed him. You're not overlooking that, right?
 
I agree with KLOL. The aura argument creates a problem when we factor in the fact that Goku used his full SSB aura against Krillin in a Kamehameha clash and Krillin actually pushed Goku's Kamehameha back in that clash. Either Goku's suppressing himself to an absurd degree or Krillin's 3-A

Also there's no way in Hell that Buu is a universal threat if he's only Hypersonic to Relativistic in terms of flight speed. He would get literally shredded by a black hole lol. Just saying.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Still doesn't mean full power. He likely powered up just enough for Vegeta to detect him and then he got caught
Click to expand...
Why?

Dagoth_OwO said:
I agree with KLOL. The aura argument creates a problem when we factor in the fact that Goku used his full SSB aura against Krillin in a Kamehameha clash and Krillin actually pushed Goku's Kamehameha back in that clash. Either Goku's suppressing himself to an absurd degree or Krillin's 3-A

Also there's no way in Hell that Buu is a universal threat if he's only Hypersonic to Relativistic in terms of flight speed. He would get literally shredded by a black hole lol. Just saying.
Click to expand...
This thread isn't for the Dragon Ball Super anime.
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
Also there's no way in Hell that Buu is a universal threat if he's only Hypersonic to Relativistic in terms of flight speed
Click to expand...
That doesn't work because of the following reasonings:
  • Buu can teleport
  • He's immortal so really the length of flight is irrelevant
  • Before he could teleport Bibidi had to transport him everywhere with his ship
  • Considering the guidebook thing provided in the void of space he wouldn't have the same hinderances as he does in atmosphere, so he'd probably be much faster
Buu is immortal, can sense life energy and (at the time) no one knew anyone even remotely strong enough to fight him outside of the Z-Fighters. He's a universal threat for the same reason SPC was one.
 
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Qawsedf234 said:
If they were moving at the same speed it quite literally could not gain on them.
Click to expand...
Stop strawmanning me I told you they are only moving at relatively the same speed, the ball is still faster. You're completely missing this point. This thread is trying to make MFTL+ characters have hypersonic flight speed but this doesn't work because of the above example.
Qawsedf234 said:
That doesn't work because of the following reasonings:
  • Buu can teleport
  • Before he could teleport Bibidi had to transport him everywhere with his ship
Buu is immortal, can sense life energy and (at the time) no one knew anyone even remotely strong enough to fight him outside of the Z-Fighters. He's a universal threat for the same reason SPC was one.
Click to expand...
Buu is stated a universal threat way before he could teleport.
Babidi cannot take kid buu anywhere in his ship due to him not being docile. And fat buu was stated a threat to the universe independent from babidi. But eeeehh this is derailing lets stop.
 
Stop strawmanning me I told you they are only moving at relatively the same speed, the ball is still faster. You're completely missing this point. This thread is trying to make MFTL+ characters have hypersonic flight speed but this doesn't work because of the above example.
Click to expand...

Buu Saga Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta have not been proposed to have Hypersonic flight speed.

Incidentally, that Ki blast from Buu appears to be the kind that starts off slow and gains speed over time.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
That doesn't work because of the following reasonings:
  • Buu can teleport
  • He's immortal so really the length of flight is irrelevant
  • Before he could teleport Bibidi had to transport him everywhere with his ship
  • Considering the guidebook thing provided in the void of space he wouldn't have the same hinderances as he does in atmosphere, so he'd probably be much faster
Click to expand...
Buu was stated to be a thread throughout the entire saga, and even before he could teleport, so your point falls flat
Qawsedf234 said:
Buu is immortal
Click to expand...
No he isn't. Only Future Zamasu was stated to be immortal

Besides, the Kais clearly said that after Buu is done, he'll come for them and kill them, and Super Buu very much implied to go across the universe and destroying every planet in it. The kais have a lifespan of millions of years, so if they die before Buu destroy the universe and come for them, they wouldn't need to worry he'll come to kill them
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Because he never shown to use his full power? Just because he was fast doesn't mean that was his top speed and he couldn't go any faster. You say he's using full power but you brought no proof for that
Click to expand...
Okay, but this is just like any other feat. Just because a character isn't stated to use their full power when they blow something up doesn't mean we can't rate them based on what they blew up. Right?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
This thread is trying to make MFTL+ characters have hypersonic flight speed but this doesn't work because of the above example.
Click to expand...
It would be hypersonic or whatever while in-atmosphere if things like drag or friction effect them. In outer space their flight speed would just be their standard combat speed. Also it has been mentioned that they amplify their energy for sudden bursts of speed which wouldn't work for flight.
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
No he isn't.
Click to expand...
Majin Buu


Immortality (Types 1 and 3)


1: Eternal Life: Characters gifted with this type of immortality cannot die from natural causes, such as old age or conventional illness, but can be killed by unnatural causes. To clarify, this type of immortality can include both those who do not age at all, and those who still grow old, but will never die of old age. However, in the case of the latter it should be made clear that this is not just Longevity, as characters with that ability will eventually die of old age, as opposed to Eternal Life, for which dying of old age is not possible.
Click to expand...
So yes, he quite literally is. We rate him as being immortal
 
Damage3245 said:
Okay, but this is just like any other feat. Just because a character isn't stated to use their full power when they blow something up doesn't mean we can't rate them based on what they blew up. Right?
Click to expand...
No. You argue that what Krillin showed was his top speed when this is demonstrably false (as even the likes of Tao Pai Pai and 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Goku traveled much faster despite being leagues below this Krillin, who may I remind you is above Saiyan Saga Vegeta), but even without those feats, you didn't show any proof that this was his full power, and just assumed as such
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
No. You argue that what Krillin showed was his top speed when this is demonstrably false (as even the likes of Tao Pai Pai and 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Goku traveled much faster despite being leagues below this Krillin, who may I remind you is above Saiyan Saga Vegeta), but even without those feats, you didn't show any proof that this was his full power, and just assumed as such
Click to expand...
I'm arguing that it is his unsuppressed speed. If you have any additional evidence that he was suppressed or "only just unsuppressed enough to where Vegeta could sense him", you need to supply that evidence.
 
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