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No you didn't, you presented your own definitions and policies for Acausality, which the wiki does not accept as valid.
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Reviewing Acausality Type 5 in profile pages
- Thread starter Everything12
- Start date
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- Tags
- acausality
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Sniper670
He/Him- 6,409
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The current standards were meant for those who transcend laws but no law of cause and effect were listed as those laws. That would be type 4
I don't even know why we had to evaluate it again. This was just to clarify things for newcommers
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Yet you agree with the upgrade. How ironic
Sniper670
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He says Anos qualifies more than Arceus. And that's a no
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No, you are completely wrong. The main point of acc type 5 is being unbound by/outside of the system, law of cause and effect aka causality. Interacting is only a supportive statement, and it can also be used as an anti-feat.
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its by scaling other gods who have it. There was already a thread about type 5 acausality for WoD but that was before the forum change so don`t know if its still there
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There isn't a page. There were once but they were poor quality and got deleted. One of the arguments for it was the Angels predating causality and creating it later on. The thread discussing about acausality in WoD can't be found it got lost during the forum change.
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,925
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I should note, Buddha isn't the only one with obvious Type 5 Acausality in WoD, so they weren't given explicit reasons, for example, when writing Jehovah's profile, Ultima never gave reasoning because reasoning was pretty obvious there too.
Above even that, Buddha transcends all dualities and concepts. He resides above Gods like Jehovah who created the High Umbra, his Avatars are the Weaver, who made the Tellurian.
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Are there any pages so far that doesn't qualify for type 5 acausality here or are we still looking?
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I have compiled all the characters that do not qualify for Type 5 by new standards here.
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Probably should start from this list and work our way down to see which ones qualify or not.
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I'll drop an argument for Anos later.
Sniper670
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I still don't get why Madoka is type 5.
From the context of the scan, it was literally referring to her becoming abstract. That's about it.
You're putting too much weight on "with no cause and effect to this world", when it was mentioned she dissappeared from time, in context, it is referring to her being outside of time.
All this wank from "with no cause and effect to this world". As I said, it's referring to her absence from time as if she's never been. She literally ceased to be part of the universe and shifted into a higher plane, that's about it. There's nothing remotely implying a being uninteractable because she's beyond cause and effect. At best, this is Type 4
So I'll just say, she does not qualify more than anyone here. In fact I'll say Anos qualifies more than her. His Source needs very specific weapons designed specifically to interact with his source, in order to remotely do anything to it iirc
From the context of the scan, it was literally referring to her becoming abstract. That's about it.
You're putting too much weight on "with no cause and effect to this world", when it was mentioned she dissappeared from time, in context, it is referring to her being outside of time.
All this wank from "with no cause and effect to this world". As I said, it's referring to her absence from time as if she's never been. She literally ceased to be part of the universe and shifted into a higher plane, that's about it. There's nothing remotely implying a being uninteractable because she's beyond cause and effect. At best, this is Type 4
So I'll just say, she does not qualify more than anyone here. In fact I'll say Anos qualifies more than her. His Source needs very specific weapons designed specifically to interact with his source, in order to remotely do anything to it iirc
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- Thread starter
- #181
I've explained it as best I could, if you can't understand the reasoning even now then I can't really do anything to help you.
The rest Is just your interpretation versus mine and theirs nothing that can be done about that, it's just a part of human nature and something that has to be accepted with this hobby.
The rest Is just your interpretation versus mine and theirs nothing that can be done about that, it's just a part of human nature and something that has to be accepted with this hobby.
Sniper670
He/Him- 6,409
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If you think you want to be very strict. And you really are, judging by the verses you've struck down, then " no cause or effect to this world" definitely isn't enough
In fact going by your own standards, I'm yet to see an actual Acausality type 5 being. You literally said there should be proof, so statements like these are meaningnless without the actual feat. And going by the context of the scan, she simply doesn't exist in the universe, which has no relation with the standards you set here
In fact going by your own standards, I'm yet to see an actual Acausality type 5 being. You literally said there should be proof, so statements like these are meaningnless without the actual feat. And going by the context of the scan, she simply doesn't exist in the universe, which has no relation with the standards you set here
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So you're basically ignoring the scan that says the reason she can't be interacted with because she's shifted to a higher plane, become a mere concept, no longer a part of the universe?
Nothing about her being unable to be interacted with has to do with "with no cause and effect to this world" not to mention the part that mentions cause and effect literally says "this world", further limiting the Acausality.
I understand you're strict but she doesn't qualify even going by the standards you've set.
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- Thread starter
- #184
Could someone link all the scans being used as evidence for Madoka's Acausality? Their's something I need to check.
FoxySonicMaster108
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I've already explained why removing Type 5 from Homestuck characters doesn't work, especially for the users with Retcon Powers.
Good lord Type 5 didn't need to be this strict.
Also what anti feats even are there aside from MSPA Reader?
Sniper670
He/Him- 6,409
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Became an existence which is no longer a part of the universe with nobody being able to neither interact with nor remember her anymore as she's now completely outside time, cause and effect, without any kind of connection to the world
It's funny how each scan says basically the same thing, that she's ceased to be part of the universe
I fail to see how any abstract entity won't beat her ass to pulp
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- Thread starter
- #187
You said after reading the original Acausality Type 5 Homestuck upgrade thread that you were certain they should have it. What thread is that because both what I've seen on the profiles, what has been argued in this thread, and what I know of the game and gigantic webcomic that I'm not interesting in rereading again at the moment to collect every time someone interacted with John or MSPA Reader after they gained their powers, the evidence isn't good enough.
No mention of Causality. Useless.
No mention of Causality. Useless.
No mention of being uninteractable. Useless.
Hmm. My opinion on the requirements of Acausality Type 5 hasn't changed, but their is something I saw last month I'm not seeing now.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,463
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Sniper670
He/Him- 6,409
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Good. With Madoka out of the way, it seems so far we still haven't found anyone who fit the standards.
Can you give us examples now
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- Thread starter
- #191
If it was that easy we wouldn't have this thread to judge the character's standard and I wouldn't have chosen to start with the easy picks from a verses I'm knowledgeable on who I knew the justifications and how they didn't fit the new standards before I made this thread.
Yeah, I don't see it. I still don't see the evidence required for the new standards.
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- Thread starter
- #193
This would be the simpliest explanation you could use bar having a direct statement of being acausal equals unable to interact.
The proximity of the uninteractable statement to the acasual statements is essential, can't just have two scans with one saying they are uninteractable and one saying they are acasual and say that is enough.
Though, more complicated verses like Elder Scrolls or World of Darkness might have evidence that meets the standards that isn't so easy to understand, with their complicated unique cosmologies and poetic form of storytelling.
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If the "character" is a thing that have a feat of not being able to be interacted with everything, to the point that you can't even think or describ it for even acausal type 4 character (trying to describe it will just be detached from the "character"). That it's outside of the world (and every boundary/duality/concept) and not bound by causality. It is enough?
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I'm currently working on Saint Seiya characters with multiple Novel length blogs being built around them. An Acausality one almost done actually. But I will say I'm fine with its removal from the whole verse until I publish that blog as a crt.
Some shouldn't even have it in the verse either.
They gotten Acausality before the revision that divided it uo into various types and forms.
Edit: wait... just read it's for Type 5's....
SS characters domt gave Type 5 Acausality but was on the list...
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Well, I'll have to argue for Anos... This time it will be related to Graham.
Currently Graham's true Nature are being used as justification for NEP2, Aca 5 and TD 2. Graham nothingness has much evidence of not being able to be interacted with in any way, his true nature lacks and unbound of order and even lacks reason sharing the same nature of Anos who's source lacks and opposes all order. In other words, his true nature is above his nothingness, which is already incapable of being interacted with or destroyed by anything other than Venuzdonoa which can destroy all things in creation or Anos' Magic Eyes of Chaotic Destruction which its destruction and overall power is stated to even surppases Venuzdonoa. But the point is that one of those orders includes the order of causality that governs the world's system of causality, which governs the causality of the verse at conceptual level due to the nature of the order. Since Graham nothingness and true nature has clear evidence of not being interacted with, Anos which his true nature is chaos and destruction which is the lack of and opposite of all "order", Graham always considered Anos his equal and when his true nothingness and Anos' destruction were in conflict, Graham realized that Anos' true nature of destruction and chaos far outweighed his nothingness. The point, as much as Graham nothingness and true nature have proof of being impossible to interact not only for being nothingness but also for lack of reason and order. In other words Order < Nothingness < Reason < Anos' source, Graham's true nature, Venuzdonoa & MEoCD. And nothingnees itslef is already unteracteable so their true natures even more so.
Venuzdonoa directly destroyed order and reason.
Graham's true nature lacking reason after the destruction of order and reason by venuzdonoa.
I will highlight again how important lacking reason is in the verse, reason is above everything in Maou Gakuin... Order (Dualities, Transduality, concepts, laws, causality, fate), non-existence and even the reason itself, the Reason Destroying Sword <Venuzdonoa> and Magic Eyes of Chaotic Destruction can manipulate, alter and destroy reason and are also unbound of reason in the same way that Anos and Graham are.
Anos' source sharing the same nature as Graham, not having been able to be interacted with and even surpassing his nature, should be proof enough for the 2 to keep their Aca 5.
There is also another proof where a chief god uses the order of causality to interact with Anos source but it was useless
To give context, Anos was fighting against a Chief God like Eques (Chief Gods are above all possible order and are the will of the world) by manipulating the order of causality this one was manipulating cause and effect but as Anos said all he could do was leave a claw mark on his body and not even cut the resistance of his source (Let it be clear that all sources have a special resistance that makes only orders or conceptual abilities can interact with them, which is not the case with Anos or Graham's source which lack all order and reason and are the opposite of them). Let it be clear that the most the causality order could do to Anos is leave a claw mark on his body and he would not even be able to do anything against his source, even if it was a chief god who was using the causality order against Anos.
now come with everything you've got and reject this with just a no and I'm going to sleep
Currently Graham's true Nature are being used as justification for NEP2, Aca 5 and TD 2. Graham nothingness has much evidence of not being able to be interacted with in any way, his true nature lacks and unbound of order and even lacks reason sharing the same nature of Anos who's source lacks and opposes all order. In other words, his true nature is above his nothingness, which is already incapable of being interacted with or destroyed by anything other than Venuzdonoa which can destroy all things in creation or Anos' Magic Eyes of Chaotic Destruction which its destruction and overall power is stated to even surppases Venuzdonoa. But the point is that one of those orders includes the order of causality that governs the world's system of causality, which governs the causality of the verse at conceptual level due to the nature of the order. Since Graham nothingness and true nature has clear evidence of not being interacted with, Anos which his true nature is chaos and destruction which is the lack of and opposite of all "order", Graham always considered Anos his equal and when his true nothingness and Anos' destruction were in conflict, Graham realized that Anos' true nature of destruction and chaos far outweighed his nothingness. The point, as much as Graham nothingness and true nature have proof of being impossible to interact not only for being nothingness but also for lack of reason and order. In other words Order < Nothingness < Reason < Anos' source, Graham's true nature, Venuzdonoa & MEoCD. And nothingnees itslef is already unteracteable so their true natures even more so.
Venuzdonoa directly destroyed order and reason.
「滅ぼされたものは無に帰すのが、この世の秩序だ。理滅剣の前では、あらゆる理が意味をなさず、万物万象が滅びる。その効果が働くのは対象が滅びるまでといったところかな？」
The world's order is that what is destroyed returns to nothing. In the face of the sword of reason and destruction, all reason is meaningless, and all things perish. Its effect will only work until the object is destroyed.
The world's order is that what is destroyed returns to nothing. In the face of the sword of reason and destruction, all reason is meaningless, and all things perish. Its effect will only work until the object is destroyed.
「だけど、滅びた後のなにもない無が、理さえ伴わない虚無こそが、僕の根源の本来の姿だ」
But the nothingness after my destruction, the pure nothingness without any reason, is the true form of my source.
But the nothingness after my destruction, the pure nothingness without any reason, is the true form of my source.
I will highlight again how important lacking reason is in the verse, reason is above everything in Maou Gakuin... Order (Dualities, Transduality, concepts, laws, causality, fate), non-existence and even the reason itself, the Reason Destroying Sword <Venuzdonoa> and Magic Eyes of Chaotic Destruction can manipulate, alter and destroy reason and are also unbound of reason in the same way that Anos and Graham are.
Anos' source sharing the same nature as Graham, not having been able to be interacted with and even surpassing his nature, should be proof enough for the 2 to keep their Aca 5.
There is also another proof where a chief god uses the order of causality to interact with Anos source but it was useless
「城という性質上、お前にできるのは自らが口にした通り、因果を崩すか積み上げるかだ。原因を崩し、結果だけを押しつけたとて、切り崩せる原因には限界がある。爪を振るう動作と俺の体に当てるという原因を無視できたとして、せいぜい爪痕を刻むという結果が精一杯。俺の根源の抵抗までは切り崩せぬ」
As he said, "Due to the nature of the castle, all you can do is either destroy or build up the causes and effects. Even if you destroy the cause and impose only the result, there is a limit to the cause that can be destroyed. Even if you could ignore the cause of the swinging of the claw and its hitting my body, the best you could do would be to carve a claw mark. It cannot even cut down the resistance of my source."
As he said, "Due to the nature of the castle, all you can do is either destroy or build up the causes and effects. Even if you destroy the cause and impose only the result, there is a limit to the cause that can be destroyed. Even if you could ignore the cause of the swinging of the claw and its hitting my body, the best you could do would be to carve a claw mark. It cannot even cut down the resistance of my source."
now come with everything you've got and reject this with just a no and I'm going to sleep
FoxySonicMaster108
He/Him- 2,073
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the only times John got interacted with (from what I remember), was with Jade, Terezi, and The Condesce, and even then, The Condesce one might be a straight up outlier since S Collide is outlier galore, this is the same animation where Davepeta fight and dodge attacks from PRIME Lord English.
and MSPA Reader is just MSPA Reader, he gets touched by literally everything.
and MSPA Reader is just MSPA Reader, he gets touched by literally everything.
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@Everything12 would Oryx count for the new standards for type 5 given his ascendant status renders him untouchable which include causality being unbounded as a result?
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