Reviewing Acausality Type 5 in profile pages

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don't think negation of Acausality type 5 should be a thing because it leaves too much room to say any anti feat is just Acausality type 5 negation. Just my thought

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The profile literally says the power of his avatar stems from his true form state, you just don't read it

I literally did. That doesn’t mean much by itself. Not to mention there still a cause and a effect to it. The cause is his death manipulation and the effect is inflicting death on a conceptual level it seems.

Also not to mention one of his scans mentioned the concept of death too anyway.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

You been repeating that and I have to stress this. We going by solely the state of being and nature as well.

Edit: I literally read it already and it isn’t that convincing anyway.

 

[Everything12]

Madoka shouldn't qualify she has a very clear cut anti feat that has never been explained

Around 0:30

One "anti-feat" against several other pieces of evidence that state the opposite make it seem that it's probably less and anti-feat and more a special case of something outside the norm going on (Non-Physical Interaction on Acausality Type 5).

To add to this the evidence I expect for Acausality Type 5 is not as harsh as some people expect, something to the effect of:

This being is not part of this world, they are beyond our ability to interact with. The are outside the principles of cause and effect.

Is enough as long as their is no major evidence against it and context of the statement doesn't reveal they are talking about something else entirely; like being unable to interact with them is because they punch their face in before they get the chance or something.

There is difference to distinguish acausal state in ID, type 4 like HRE is still bound by fate and plot while Yogiri is not

Just because his Acausality is better doesn't make it Acausality Type 5.

I don't think negation of Acausality type 5 should be a thing because it leaves too much room to say any anti feat is just Acausality type 5 negation. Just my thought

Negation, no. Well not unless they have very specific evidence that make it impossible to deny them removing the acausal nature of a being who undeniably has Acausality Type 5.

But as long as their is only one such interaction against several pieces of evidence of being uninteractable, then we get just classify it as that character being able to uniquely interact with beings without relying on causality.

 

[Delta333]

Just because his Acausality is better doesn't make it Acausality Type 5.

I mean you said that the verse needs to distinguish acausal type 4 and 5, or do our standard have higher acausal type 4?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Anos
Sounds more like Transduality type 2 (which is already a part of) as there's not enought to relate it with the new standards regarding causality as far I can tell.

Spoiler: CHAPTER 514

「城という性質上、お前にできるのは自らが口にした通り、因果を崩すか積み上げるかだ。原因を崩し、結果だけを押しつけたとて、切り崩せる原因には限界がある。爪を振るう動作と俺の体に当てるという原因を無視できたとして、せいぜい爪痕を刻むという結果が精一杯。俺の根源の抵抗までは切り崩せぬ」

"Due to the nature of the castle, all you can do, as you yourself have said, is to destroy or build up the causes and effects. Even if you destroy the cause and impose only the result, there is a limit to the cause that can be destroyed. Even if you could ignore the cause of the swinging of the claw and its hitting my body, the best you could do would be to carve a claw mark. You can't cut down to my root resistance."

不敵に笑い、俺は言った。

「どれだけ原因を崩し、結果を重ねたところで、チャチな城では俺には届かぬ」

Laughing wryly, I said.

"No matter how much you break the cause and pile up the results, you can't reach me in a chancy castle."

Only his root has Acausality type 5 not body. His body is type 4. No matter what casuality can't affect his root.

For all the people I need them to understand that his root only has Acausality type 5 not his body

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Spoiler: CHAPTER 514

「城という性質上、お前にできるのは自らが口にした通り、因果を崩すか積み上げるかだ。原因を崩し、結果だけを押しつけたとて、切り崩せる原因には限界がある。爪を振るう動作と俺の体に当てるという原因を無視できたとして、せいぜい爪痕を刻むという結果が精一杯。俺の根源の抵抗までは切り崩せぬ」

"Due to the nature of the castle, all you can do, as you yourself have said, is to destroy or build up the causes and effects. Even if you destroy the cause and impose only the result, there is a limit to the cause that can be destroyed. Even if you could ignore the cause of the swinging of the claw and its hitting my body, the best you could do would be to carve a claw mark. You can't cut down to my root resistance."

不敵に笑い、俺は言った。

「どれだけ原因を崩し、結果を重ねたところで、チャチな城では俺には届かぬ」

Laughing wryly, I said.

"No matter how much you break the cause and pile up the results, you can't reach me in a chancy castle."

Only his root has Acausality type 5 not body. His body is type 4. No matter what casuality can't affect his root.

For all the people I need them to understand that his root only has Acausality type 5 not his body

Is the castle a part of him?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also, that does seem to qualify a lot more too.

 

[NIK_FARIS]

I literally did. That doesn’t mean much by itself. Not to mention there still a cause and a effect to it. The cause is his death manipulation and the effect is inflicting death on a conceptual level it seems.

Also not to mention one of his scans mentioned the concept of death too anyway.

The series stated many times that his ability had no correlation with cause and effect. Even if it sound like have cause and effect, they don’t have cause and effect. If you want to argue that it only because of it being conceptual, conceptual death attack is common in instant death that even non god can have it. They also capable of nullified such ability. For example, Sea Bandit who can analyse and neutralise any such ability yet couldn’t do it with Yogiri. UEG easily handle conceptual death attack at her concept but couldn’t do anything with attack by Yogiri.
Also, rather than his death hax being conceptual, it more to the fact that it capable of destroying concept.

 

[Zencha9]

Homura's profile says that she can negate acausal type 5, and yes it's a thing, just like immortal neg

If it's stated that she nullifes stuff sure but that’s never stated and is just an assumption so we treat it as an anti feat unless stated otherwise

@Everything12
The problem with treating as special is not just because it has no basis and is basically an assumption it's also because at that point she's just a normal magical girl with nothing really special so it's clear cut anti feat unless somehow all magical girls can now interact with madoka

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The series stated many times that his ability had no correlation with cause and effect. Even if it sound like have cause and effect, they don’t have cause and effect. If you want to argue that it only because of it being conceptual, conceptual death attack is common in instant death that even non god can have it. They also capable of nullified such ability. For example, Sea Bandit who can analyse and neutralise any such ability yet could do it with Yogiri. UEG easily handle conceptual death attack at her concept but couldn’t do anything with attack by Yogiri.
Also, rather than his death hax being conceptual, it more to the fact that it capable of destroying concept.

You sure on that one? I have to disagree with that as one of the statements shown is they don’t understand how that ability works and that his opponent dies from his instant death ability.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Not to mention he literally does have death manipulation listed on his profile too.

 

[Everything12]

I mean you said that the verse needs to distinguish acausal type 4 and 5, or do our standard have higher acausal type 4?

The verse doesn't need to distinguish between Type 4 and Type 5, it's that we distinguish between the two by Type 5 being uninteractable because of being acausal. And yes, we we can have forms of Acausality Type 4 that have attributes that other forms of Acausality Type 4 lack.

For all the people I need them to understand that his root only has Acausality type 5 not his body

I understand this, but I am having a real hard time reviewing this because I'm lacking th context around the situation to understand fully what's being said here. It's why I really hate series that don't have an actual translation.

I can't tell if this Acausality Type 5 or Resistance to Causality Manipulation or what.

If it's stated that she nullifes stuff sure but that’s never stated and is just an assumption so we treat it as an anti feat unless stated otherwise

@Everything12
The problem with treating as special is not just because it has no basis and is basically an assumption it's also because at that point she's just a normal magical girl with nothing really special so it's clear cut anti feat unless somehow all magical girls can now interact with madoka

Maybe it's something only Homura can do because of her feelings for Madoka or just because, some times fiction just allows characters to do things without any real reason why. Looking at the context I can't deem this as enough of an anti-feat to deny the evidence for Acausality Type 5.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Is the castle a part of him?

He is God of casualty.

In Anos verse there is this silver sea which contains countless worlds each world has different order. Concept and laws of Causality is one the world. Anos root not affected by that guys order which manipulates casualty.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I understand this, but I am having a real hard time reviewing this because I'm lacking th context around the situation to understand fully what's being said here. It's why I really hate series that don't have an actual translation.

I can't tell if this Acausality Type 5 or Resistance to Causality Manipulation or what.

He is God of casualty.

In Anos verse there is this silver sea which contains countless worlds each world has different order. Concept and laws of Causality is one the world. Anos root not affected by that guys order which manipulates casualty.

Is this enough.

 

[Zencha9]

Also the digimon guys have type 5 because they're stated to transcend the new digital world and it's system
Also Because they're unaffected by a multiversal reset and said reset was stated to based on the law of causality and i don't think this qualfies

 

[Everything12]

Is this enough.

Nope, it doesn't help clarify if this is Acausality or just Resistance.

Also the digimon guys have type 5 because they're stated to transcend the new digital world and it's system
Also Because they're unaffected by a multiversal reset and said reset was stated to based on the law of causality and i don't think this qualfies

Based on what I've read on thir profile, it doesn't seem to qualify.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The verse doesn't need to distinguish between Type 4 and Type 5, it's that we distinguish between the two by Type 5 being uninteractable because of being acausal. And yes, we we can have forms of Acausality Type 4 that have attributes that other forms of Acausality Type 4 lack.


I understand this, but I am having a real hard time reviewing this because I'm lacking th context around the situation to understand fully what's being said here. It's why I really hate series that don't have an actual translation.

I can't tell if this Acausality Type 5 or Resistance to Causality Manipulation or what.


Maybe it's something only Homura can do because of her feelings for Madoka or just because, some times fiction just allows characters to do things without any real reason why. Looking at the context I can't deem this as enough of an anti-feat to deny the evidence for Acausality Type 5.

「城という性質上、お前にできるのは自らが口にした通り、因果を崩すか積み上げるかだ。原因を崩し、結果だけを押しつけたとて、切り崩せる原因には限界がある。爪を振るう動作と俺の体に当てるという原因を無視できたとして、せいぜい爪痕を刻むという結果が精一杯。俺の根源の抵抗までは切り崩せぬ」

"Due to the nature of the castle, all you can do, as you yourself have said, is to destroy or build up the causes and effects. Even if you destroy the cause and impose only the result, there is a limit to the cause that can be destroyed. Even if you could ignore the cause of the swinging of the claw and its hitting my body, the best you could do would be to carve a claw mark. You can't cut down to my root resistance."

不敵に笑い、俺は言った。

「どれだけ原因を崩し、結果を重ねたところで、チャチな城では俺には届かぬ」

Laughing wryly, I said.

"No matter how much you break the cause and pile up the results, you can't reach me in a chancy castle."

 

[NIK_FARIS]

Not to mention he literally does have death manipulation listed on his profile too.

That is more application of his true ability. His ability all depend on his perception. If he want to erase something, that thing gone. Poof! And no matter what you do, even if you reverse cause and effect, it will not work.

 

[Everything12]

「城という性質上、お前にできるのは自らが口にした通り、因果を崩すか積み上げるかだ。原因を崩し、結果だけを押しつけたとて、切り崩せる原因には限界がある。爪を振るう動作と俺の体に当てるという原因を無視できたとして、せいぜい爪痕を刻むという結果が精一杯。俺の根源の抵抗までは切り崩せぬ」

"Due to the nature of the castle, all you can do, as you yourself have said, is to destroy or build up the causes and effects. Even if you destroy the cause and impose only the result, there is a limit to the cause that can be destroyed. Even if you could ignore the cause of the swinging of the claw and its hitting my body, the best you could do would be to carve a claw mark. You can't cut down to my root resistance."

不敵に笑い、俺は言った。

「どれだけ原因を崩し、結果を重ねたところで、チャチな城では俺には届かぬ」

Laughing wryly, I said.

"No matter how much you break the cause and pile up the results, you can't reach me in a chancy castle."

I can read you know.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I can read you know.

I know, but it is kinda confusing as it does mention causality here than a causality

 

[Zencha9]

Maybe it's something only Homura can do because of her feelings for Madoka or just because, some times fiction just allows characters to do things without any real reason why. Looking at the context I can't deem this as enough of an anti-feat to deny the evidence for Acausality Type 5.

Again what are these feats to begin with 1 anti feat should be more than enough unless they're like 10 feats, and the statements in also refer to her nature as a universal concept so why would we take transcend quite literally when we have a clear cut anti feat that's a relevant plot point

 

[Delta333]

If it's stated that she nullifes stuff sure but that’s never stated and is just an assumption so we treat it as an anti feat unless stated otherwise

If someone kills character with HGR it will have HGR neg by feats, it doesn't need direct statement for such thing at all and here is same

The verse doesn't need to distinguish between Type 4 and Type 5, it's that we distinguish between the two by Type 5 being uninteractable because of being acausal. And yes, we we can have forms of Acausality Type 4 that have attributes that other forms of Acausality Type 4 lack.

If characters have feat to interact with concept type 1 yet they can't interact with his mere extension then should it be acausal type 5? I mean it will be either layered concept type 1 or acausal type 5, but considering the series only explains that they have no relation to cause and effect, it will be acausal type 5 due to Occam Razor

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nope, it doesn't help clarify if this is Acausality or just Resistance.

Well here is the thing it's stated no matter what his Casualty manipulation can't affect his root. Also the fact Graham's nothingness which exists inside the Anos source both can't change their state. Graham's nothingness still exists inside Anos source and Anos source is the only things which has Graham nothingness interaction both are unchangeable. Also the fact

1. Venozdonor is Anos right eyes power. So his power interacting with his self is not anti feat.
2. Evansmana was inside anos mother stomach which may have given the power to Evansmana to interact with Anos source
3. Sasha has anos right eye which is anos power

No other instances other characters shown to interact with Anos source. all interaction is done via another Acausality type 5 character who has shown state of unchanging and all of his own power interacting with him.

To cut to the case their has to be a direct like towards being acausal and being uninteractable, evidence that makes it clear that they are unchanging because of their acausality. Simply being acausal and unable to percieved is not enough, and adding being untouchable because of being nonexistent or another plane of being is also not enough.

Acausality Type 5 is about being acausal and needs to have proof that the uninteractable state that distinguishes Acausality Type 5 from Acausality Type 4 is because of being acausal.

So all I want to say his source getting interacted with his own power and never shown to interact with other powers & unchanging.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I know, but it is kinda confusing as it does mention causality here than a causality

Well here is the thing it's stated no matter what his Casualty manipulation can't affect his root. Also the fact Graham's nothingness which exists inside the Anos source both can't change their state. Graham's nothingness still exists inside Anos source and Anos source is the only things which has Graham nothingness interaction both are unchangeable. Also the fact

1. Venozdonor is Anos right eyes power. So his power interacting with his self is not anti feat.
2. Evansmana was inside anos mother stomach which may have given the power to Evansmana to interact with Anos source
3. Sasha has anos right eye which is anos power

No other instances other characters shown to interact with Anos source. all interaction is done via another Acausality type 5 character who has shown state of unchanging and all of his own power interacting with him.

So all I want to say his source getting interacted with his own power and never shown to interact with other powers & unchanging.

His source gets interacted with his own power not by others..

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Well here is the thing it's stated no matter what his Casualty manipulation can't affect his root. Also the fact Graham's nothingness which exists inside the Anos source both can't change their state. Graham's nothingness still exists inside Anos source and Anos source is the only things which has Graham nothingness interaction both are unchangeable. Also the fact

1. Venozdonor is Anos right eyes power. So his power interacting with his self is not anti feat.
2. Evansmana was inside anos mother stomach which may have given the power to Evansmana to interact with Anos source
3. Sasha has anos right eye which is anos power

No other instances other characters shown to interact with Anos source. all interaction is done via another Acausality type 5 character who has shown state of unchanging and all of his own power interacting with him.

Any scans for these specific statements? That will been much better with context.

 

[Zencha9]

If someone kills character with HGR it will have HGR neg by feats, it doesn't need direct statement for such thing at all and here is same

Doesn't matter to my point all magical girls would have type 5 negation which doesn't make any sense in the story

 

[Delta333]

Doesn't matter to my point all magical girls would have type 5 negation which doesn't make any sense in the story

Only Homura has influenced Madoka's true form, the rest only interacted with her avatar

 

[Everything12]

If characters have feat to interact with concept type 1 yet they can't interact with his mere extension then should it be acausal type 5? I mean it will be either layered concept type 1 or acausal type 5, but considering the series only explains that they have no relation to cause and effect, it will be acausal type 5 due to Occam Razor

They need a more direct statement of being uninteractable because of causality. Plus doesn't it have Nonexistent Physiology as well.

Just not being interacted with isn't enough, you need to have evidence that their is some connection between being acausal and being uninteractable, and Occams Razor isn't enough. The evidence has to be more concrete then that.

Doesn't matter to my point all magical girls would have type 5 negation which doesn't make any sense in the story

Any magical girl besides Homura done it? No? Then we can just assume that Homura can do it for some unknown reason that we can't just assume is because of her magical powers (especially because Kyuubey who gives the magical girls their powers is the one who said Madoka can't be interacted with anymore)

 

[HammerStrikes219]

They need a more direct statement of being uninteractable because of causality. Plus doesn't it have Nonexistent Physiology as well.

On his profile, it does mention non existent physiology so yeah.

 

[Delta333]

They need a more direct statement of being uninteractable because of causality. Plus doesn't it have Nonexistent Physiology as well.

Just not being interacted with isn't enough, you need to have evidence that their is some connection between being acausal and being uninteractable, and Occams Razor isn't enough. The evidence has to be more concrete then that.

Yea he has NEP, but for now it's just type1 and gods have that too so I don't think that would be the case

That's true but my point is that they have feat to interact with most of his aspects except like acausal type 5 (literally most of characters in the series can interact with concept, with Gods are NEP being and can interact with each other or themselves)

 

[NIK_FARIS]

They need a more direct statement of being uninteractable because of causality. Plus doesn't it have Nonexistent Physiology as well.

Just not being interacted with isn't enough, you need to have evidence that their is some connection between being acausal and being uninteractable, and Occams Razor isn't enough. The evidence has to be more concrete then that.

… It implied by HRE that he can’t perceive Yogiri true form due to it being beyond causality though rather than because it does not exist.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Any scans for these specific statements? That will been much better with context.

　なにもない。

　微量な魔力さえも感じぬそこに、確かに奴はいる。

「滅ぼされたものは無に帰すのが、この世の秩序だ。理滅剣の前では、あらゆる理が意味をなさず、万物万象が滅びる。その効果が働くのは対象が滅びるまでといったところかな？」

　周囲の虚無から声だけが響く。

「だけど、滅びた後のなにもない無が、理さえ伴わない虚無こそが、僕の根源の本来の姿だ」

　理滅剣は、確かに奴の虚無を滅ぼした。

　There is nothing.

　There is no magic, not even a trace of it, but he is there.

"The world's order is that what is destroyed returns to nothing. In the face of the sword of reason and destruction, all reason is meaningless, and all things perish. Its effect will only work until the object is destroyed."

　Only a voice echoed from the surrounding emptiness.

"But the emptiness after the destruction, the emptiness without any reason, is the true form of my roots."

　The Reason destruction sword has indeed destroyed his emptiness.

Reason in maou Gakuin is above order. Order also encompasses casualty and others laws and concepts. Graham's true form lacks even that & I will send the scan for Venozdonor being anos power later. I need to re visit old chapters. His nothingness/true form still exists inside Anos source.

I would prefer @Dereck03 or @Fixxed explain the things because my English is very bad. I may not able to completely explains all things.

 

[Zencha9]

Any magical girl besides Homura done it? No? Then we can just assume that Homura can do it for some unknown reason that we can't just assume is because of her magical powers (especially because Kyuubey who gives the magical girls their powers is the one who said Madoka can't be interacted with anymore)

Transcend can quite literally means outside so why would we need to more stuff and assume instead of giving her type 4 which makes more sense within the context of the show

 

[Everything12]

Yea he has NEP, but for now it's just type1 and gods have that too so I don't think that would be the case

That's true but my point is that they have feat to interact with most of his aspects except like acausal type 5 (literally most of characters in the series can interact with concept, with Gods are NEP being and can interact with each other or themselves)

Pretty sure it's just layered Nonexistent Physiology because of what happened to the UEG.

… It implied by HRE that he can’t perceive Yogiri true form due to it being beyond causality though rather than because it does not exist.

I read that as two different things, he is both outside causality and it's imperceptible.

Transcend can quite literally means outside so why would we need to more stuff and assume instead of giving her type 4 which makes more sense within the context of the show

Because theirs statements of her being uninteractable that are linked to her acausal nature.

 

[Bobsican]

BTW, considering the large amount of cases to handle, I'd recommend to keep track of conclusions so they're actually applied and all.

 

[Zencha9]

Because theirs statements of her being uninteractable that are linked to her acausal nature.

That was Because of her becoming a concept no?

 

[Delta333]

Pretty sure it's just layered Nonexistent Physiology because of what happened to the UEG.

Not exactly, his NEP trait in physical reality is different from the darkness that UEG gets melted into, like when she was already fused into his existence her actual body in physical reality still fell from the sky, and what I want to say is that, the thing that characters can't interact is him and his attacks even in physical reality, not in that abstract space

 

[Randomlamdom]

For homura, wraith arc explains that she and madoka have a connection that transcends the laws of the world and allows for miracles to happen, which is how she managed to interact with madoka and become a devil

 

[Sniper670]

Any magical girl besides Homura done it? No? Then we can just assume that Homura can do it for some unknown reason that we can't just assume is because of her magical powers (especially because Kyuubey who gives the magical girls their powers is the one who said Madoka can't be interacted with anymore)

NGL I find your defense of Homura as real biased.
It's an anti feat, what you're doing here is a massive assumption to accomodate type 5