Reviewing Acausality Type 5 in profile pages

[NIK_FARIS]

I read that as two different things, he is both outside causality and it's imperceptible.

I don’t know how you treat it different when they are in the same context, referring back to the state of being known as ‘The End’.

Also........ I assume you treat ‘beyond’ as ‘outside’ similar to how we treat someone which goes ‘beyond’ space and time as simply ‘outside’ of space and time rather than ‘transcend’. Although, I don’t really think it really matter in this topic I guess.

 

[Jinsye]

Any magical girl besides Homura done it? No? Then we can just assume that Homura can do it for some unknown reason that we can't just assume is because of her magical powers (especially because Kyuubey who gives the magical girls their powers is the one who said Madoka can't be interacted with anymore)

Homura interacts with Madoka because she and her have a special bond. That's explained in Wraith Arc iirc. She is explicitly treated as an exception to the rule.

 

[Jinsye]

She is also absolutely not physical anyways, so I don't know why people are arguing that Homura touching her is an "anti-feat" for just her acausality.

 

[Everything12]

NGL I find your defense of Homura as real biased.
It's an anti feat, what you're doing here is a massive assumption to accomodate type 5

I don't have any strong feelings for Madoka the series or character, I have stronger positive feelings for the likes of Pokémon and Homestruck.

If any other series presented the same or similar siutation I would have the exact same opinion. One possible anti-feat is not enough to discredit evidence for Acausality Type 5 as long as the evidence isn't too debatable.

 

[Zencha9]

For homura, wraith arc explains that she and madoka have a connection that transcends the laws of the world and allows for miracles to happen, which is how she managed to interact with madoka and become a devil

I Would like to see said scans

 

[Sniper670]

I Would like to see said scans

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/b7/027534.png/revision/latest?cb=20180920094418

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That is more application of his true ability. His ability all depend on his perception. If he want to erase something, that thing gone. Poof! And no matter what you do, even if you reverse cause and effect, it will not work.

You are arguing that his attacks being acausal when that is not necessarily the case. Also it is not related to his state of being since he is legitimately a haxed being anyway.

 

[Randomlamdom]

I Would like to see said scans

Spoiler

 

[StrymULTRA]

You guys are legit forgetting that ONLY HOMURA was able to remember Madoka's reset of reality, because of Madoka giving to her a gift directly from herself (the red ribbon) at the end of the series to remember her, meaning that Homura was blessed from Madoka herself in some way.

With all the stuff about her special connection too, Homura legit had all the means to interact with Madoka.

This is essentially saying that Madoka can't be Acausal 5 because of Homura remembering about her as well after the reset, despite everything in PMMM points about Homura being the exception about Madoka's stuff.

Literally all the arguments against her Acausality 5 are both bias + ignoring context.

Nothing else to say but this website is becoming worse day by day fr, and this is proof.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

You guys are legit forgetting that ONLY HOMURA was able to remember Madoka's reset of reality, because of Madoka giving to her a gift directly from herself (the red ribbon) at the end of the series to remember her, meaning that Homura was blessed from Madoka herself in some way.

With all the stuff about her special connection too, Homura legit had all the means to interact with Madoka.

This is essentially saying that Madoka can't be Acausal 5 because of Homura remembering about her as well after the reset, despite everything in PMMM points about Homura being the exception about Madoka's stuff.

Literally all the arguments against her Acausality 5 are both bias + ignoring context.

Nothing else to say but this website is becoming worse day by day fr, and this is proof.

1. I literally am not into the series so I will appreciate it if you didn’t tried to lump me with specific ppl who is disagreeing with Type 5 Ascauality for that specific character .

2. At least, the context is provided through statements and scans that has the said statements.

 

[NIK_FARIS]

You are arguing that his attacks being acausal when that is not necessarily the case. Also it is not related to his state of being since he is legitimately a haxed being anyway.

Umm, I am not really arguing about acausality right there since what I am trying to say is that his death attack is a form of application of his ability.

Also, his ability is still related to his state of being because rather than simply saying that only his ability had no cause and effect, the HRE refer it to the being(Yogiri true form) as beyond causality as well.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Umm, I am not really arguing about acausality right there since what I am trying to say is that his death attack is a form of application of his ability.

Also, his ability is still related to his state of being because rather than simply saying that only his ability had no cause and effect, the HRE refer it to the being(Yogiri true form) as beyond causality as well.

Hmm, I wonder if it is just Type 4 anyway.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Legitimate question: If you are beyond the scope of a character that already has type 5 and is beyond any system of causality, how do you not automatically qualify for type 5?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

maybe yuri could explain why they should

Yuri got banned iirc, so that's out. (Plus their fandom account got disabled)

 

[Bobsican]

I'd say to just remove it from the Homestuck profiles if no one can defend them.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

The characters with Type 5 unbound by the meta rivers should honestly have it removed, it’s not related to casualty (EDIT: actually no that's not the case at all, It is related to casualty, I am stupid, now I'm not sure on it's removal)

The characters with retcon powers tho… I don’t know, there is direct mention of transcending casualty (or canon in this case) and being unstuck in reality, but characters (most notably MSPA Reader), get interacted with multiple times. (Aside from that, what Anti Feats?) (The thread that got Type 5 added for them has some good requirements as well, maybe HS can just interact with Type 5? Who knows.)

First Guardian MSPA Reader should definitely have it tho, he literally transcends the entire verse (or better said “bigger than the story”), he should be above the “being unstuck in reality” stuff

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

one question, using casual weapons/chains designed to bind Acasual beings is an anti feat or the chains simply negate their Acasuality?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

one question, using casual weapons/chains designed to bind Acasual beings is an anti feat or the chains simply negate their Acasuality?

Actually yeah, that’s very good question, like, what if something can just, Neg Type 5? Does that mean it’s no longer Type 5? Makes no sense

 

[Everything12]

Legitimate question: If you are beyond the scope of a character that already has type 5 and is beyond any system of causality, how do you not automatically qualify for type 5?

Well I guess it depends on context, but it's probably more likely then not that they qualify.

 

[Bobsican]

Obviously the "is beyond any system of causality" part would also require more context per the current stricter standards. Just being "higher-d" or the like in relation in a cosmology with causality existing (which is kinda the default anyways) in it wouldn't be enought.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... bump.

I recall the following still weren't really addressed at all, besides a now outdated sort of standard of characters getting type 5 acausality by being above a cosmology that has causality (Which is as inappropiate as it sounds):

I was bored and decided to browse on way more Acausality type 5 characters, I'll also suggest for those knowledgeable in the series involved to check other characters with the power as chances are they may not qualify either:

Gods of Heaven (Mizukamiverse)
No explanations at all, honestly the page may even be deletion worthy with how bad it is.

Akuto Sai
No citations at all, and sounds rather vague even then for the purposes of the new criteria

Featherine Augustus Aurora
No justification

The Buddha (World of Darkness)
No justification

SCP-682
Justification is being on the same level of beings like this, which consumed this and is beyond it, which just... sustains time and is beyond it, I don't think they qualify...

Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics)
Honestly sounds way more like type 4 acausality if anything, nothing in there implies he's hard to interact with out of being beyond causality

JUDY
No justification

Azathoth (Cthulhu Mythos)
No justification

The Downstreamers
No justification

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)
Preceding characters/cosmologies is in no way proof of acausality, let alone type 5, if there's more to this it should be added, or else removed

The Goddess of The Manifold
No justification

Gan
No justification

Unicron
No citation, also pretty vague anyways

Wendy (Low Dimensional Game)
Being separate from cause and effect isn't enought on its own to have type 5 acausality anymore.

Sassy the Sasquatch
No justification, I recall Ultima is still working on the verse right now, however

Ayase Mika
No justification

The One
No justification

Luminous Being
No explanation

I'd ask for an staff member to do me a favor and ping the respective knowledgeable users on the above verses, perhaps we could also get another note to not just give this power to a character that's "above" a cosmology unless it's specifically to be unplausible to interact out of unconventional relations with causality, or at least be brought up as a common case that doesn't fit example-wise.

Anyways, the following appear to have had their type 5 acausality deemed inaccurate based on discussion in this thread, and should have it removed or get their own CRT if anyone wants to argue further for them, preferably with scans and all of that, stuff not mentioned already has its own CRT as far I can tell

I was bored and decided to browse on way more Acausality type 5 characters, I'll also suggest for those knowledgeable in the series involved to check other characters with the power as chances are they may not qualify either:

Anos
Sounds more like Transduality type 2 (which is already a part of) as there's not enought to relate it with the new standards regarding causality as far I can tell.

Tiamat (Tokyo Babel)

M (Shikkoku no Sharnoth)

Yogiri Takatou
Relies on someone with type 4 acausality (with no scans, lol) perceiving him as "imperceptible / incomprehensible", while separately being stated apparently to be "beyond fate, plot and causality" and while there's plenty of references, there's no direct scans as far I can tell, so this may be a bit questionable, especially with how some parts seem rather vague as is.

The following were deemed fine as is:

Anu

YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)

The Great Reason

Madoka Kaname

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm here. I'm a knowledgeable member for SCP. I'm asking why being transcendent over another character who is type 5 doesn't qualify when that character is already transcendent over the very concept of causality.

I'm referring to 682 by the way.

 

[Bobsican]

For the same reason Anos doesn't, or well, partially.

Namely, Anos was declined out of even if he's "conceptually" beyond causality, that's never explicitly related to being unplausible to interact with out of that, now if there's something to claim otherwise here it's another story.

Even then, being trascendent over someone that's type 5 requires more context, if it's just "higher-d" or the like even in the manner of the Tiering System, then that's not really proof to begin with as one can be higher-d than someone beyond acausality in their respective dimensional level without being acausal themselves, in fact that detail is currently agreed on as far as this thread goes. Simply put, we'd need proof that the difficulty on interacting with them is related to being unbound to causality than other powers or physiologies.

 

[Sniper670]

If I created the law of cause and effect and i exist outside of it, it's type 5.

As long as you can't be interacted with by any circumstances.

Arceus comes to mind, as even with the creation of a multiverse with abstracts he still needs a manifestation to do stuff. With all things being contained inside him and his existence being beyond the scope of the multiverse and beyond

 

[Bobsican]

Not necessarily as that (being difficult to interact with) can also be achieved by just being higher-d, which is totally what happens in Arceus' case for all we know, we need something to claim the character is specifically difficult to interact out of an unboundness to causality on their level. In fact Arceus has next to no abilities on his dimensional level, so it's really unlikely he fits.

If we just took any "level" for these purposes, by that logic we may as well give Abstract Existence to any character that's higher-d in relation to an abstract character, which is quite inappropiate and assumptive to say the least.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

one question, using casual weapons/chains designed to bind Acasual beings is an anti feat or the chains simply negate their Acasuality?

?

 

[Bobsican]

one question, using casual weapons/chains designed to bind Acasual beings is an anti feat or the chains simply negate their Acasuality?

Well I guess it depends on context, but it's probably more likely then not that they qualify.

Depends on the arguments, but it's possible to negate Type 5 Acausality without being an anti-feat for it, a good chunk of the thread already went on something similar going on Puella Magi for Madoka to retain that power. The problem is more like if it's just unexplained and characters just so happen to "ignore" it.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Looking at the CRT that gave characters with the Retcon Powers Type 5, I completely disagree with the removal of it, regardless of the rewording.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So if they are impossible to have interacted with, and it is proven that they got acc type 5 and a character B simply interacts with him, does character B have also acc type 5? Or is it anti-feat?

You can't negate acc type 5 user unless you force him to exist inside your system (law of cause and effect), then he is no more acc type 5. But if you interact with them and they are proven to be outside of the system, I don't think it is anti-feat.

 

[Sniper670]

Not necessarily as that (being difficult to interact with) can also be achieved by just being higher-d, which is totally what happens in Arceus' case for all we know, we need something to claim the character is specifically difficult to interact out of an unboundness to causality on their level. In fact Arceus has next to no abilities on his dimensional level, so it's really unlikely he fits.

Because he doesn't abide by the laws within the multiverse at large. Or should I say he's rather external to the the universe and its rules

On the plates, he literally said "the rules of time and space"

It was repeatedly mentioned the "logic of this world"

With it being mentioned the law of cause and effect being distorted in the DW

So no. If we're talking about Arceus, he simply predates and is unbound by whatever laws the multiverse follows.

 

[Bobsican]

Because he doesn't abide by the laws within the multiverse at large. Or should I say he's rather external to the the universe and its rules

On the plates, he literally said "the rules of time and space"

It was repeatedly mentioned the "logic of this world"

With it being mentioned the law of cause and effect being distorted in the DW

So no. If we're talking about Arceus, he simply predates and is unbound by whatever laws the multiverse follows.

Yeah, so is like... any tier 1 in relation to a tier 2 structure, "distorted cause and effect" is also just type 4 at best, for type 5 we'd need someone on the same dimensional level as Arceus (if this is all for the true form in particular, the avatar can't really qualify at all as it's been interacted with plenty of times), being specifically unable to interact with him out of him being unbound to regular causality, until then Arceus doesn't really qualify, I'm afraid.

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah, so is like... any tier 1 in relation to a tier 2 structure, "distorted cause and effect" is also just type 4 at best, for type 5 we'd need someone on the same dimensional level as Arceus (if this is all for the true form in particular, the avatar can't really qualify at all as it's been interacted with plenty of times), being specifically unable to interact with him out of him being unbound to regular causality, until then Arceus doesn't really qualify, I'm afraid.

Irregular causality is just for the Distortion World . Of which his true form effectively predate and exists beyond

 

[Bobsican]

Exiting "beyond" an acausal structure is no longer enought for type 5 acausality, again.

Anos was rejected of having type 5 acausality even with more explicit reasonings than that out of that kind of details.

 

[Sniper670]

Exiting beyond an acausal structure is no longer enought for type 5 acausality, again.

That's not the point. He predates the laws and exists beyond them is what i mean

Anos was rejected of having type 5 acausality even with more explicit reasonings than that out of that kind of details.

Anos has been interacted with a ton of times. I'm not really sure why he got that but Admins supposedly have it a yes

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, but context matters, even with that being true it's not enought proof that his true form is uninteractuable conventionally by other beings on the same dimensional level (especially since otherwise this is just a characteristic from being tier 1 in relation to tier 2 beings and below, there's multiple ways to be uninteractuable without being acausal, and to just claim it to be out of that seems rather assumptive with the current proof) out of an unboundness to causality, we'd need more explicit statements on that regard to say the least.

The type 5 acausality is explicitly for Anos' source, not his "avatar", so that's just a misconception from the start.

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah, but context matters, even with that being true it's not enought proof that his true form is uninteractuable conventionally by other beings on the same dimensional level (especially since otherwise this is just a characteristic from being tier 1 in relation to tier 2 beings and below, there's multiple ways to be uninteractuable without being acausal, and to just claim it to be out of that seems rather assumptive with the current proof) out of an unboundness to causality, we'd need more explicit statements on that regard to say the least.

Okay. He's beyond causality and Acausality

It's type 5. Unless theres a 4.5 acausality I'm missing, feel free to lead me to it

The type 5 acausality is explicitly for Anos' source, not his "avatar", so that's just a misconception from the start.

Nowhere was it mentioned his source is beyond causality so yes, I stand by my point

 

[Bobsican]

At this point I'd rather let the staff evaluate the situation, you're starting to just repeat old points.

 

[Everything12]

Okay. He's beyond causality and Acausality

It's type 5. Unless theres a 4.5 acausality I'm missing, feel free to lead me to it

Some character's Acausality Type 4 can be better then others.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Some character's Acausality Type 4 can be better then others.

This isn't even applicable in this instance. It objectively isn't type 4, it is Type 5.

 

[Bobsican]

I've already went on how it doesn't fit for Acausality overall, bring some arguments if you want to go somewhere.