Reviewing Acausality Type 5 in profile pages

[Everything12]

Acausality Type 5 has recently had a rewording to make it easier to understand and to fix problems that people have had with it, in the thread the wording that was decided on and added was:

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.

Though the character is completely Independent of causality to the point of being unaffected by any outside change, this only extends to as far as evidence shows and not to things beyond it's feats.

Note: Being completely independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise.

This alteration has led the definition of Acausality Type 5 and requirements to achieve it to be changed, so this means that it is now required to look at all the profiles that had Acausality Type 5 under the old definition and see if they still fit the requirements.

This is the page that should ink to all Acausality users, and thus all Acausality Type 5 users.

Pages that link to "Acausality" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

The most important changes of the definition, and what should be looked at would be:

Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.

and

Note: Being completely independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we move this thread to our news and announcements forum instead, so we can get help from experienced members in our community as well?

Also, thank you for helping out.

 

[Everything12]

If you think that is more appropriate, then I don't have any issues.

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Damage3245 @Shadowbokunohero @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @ElixirBlue @Tllmbrg @Nehz_XZX @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @The_Impress @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo

If any of you are interested in helping out here, feel free to do so.

 

[Bobsican]

This immediately looks sus as it relies entirely on "beyond time, space and causality" statements without much else, anything else could just be dismissed as incorporeality/NEP (IDK why both are listed when that's redundant here) going by how the page lists them.

 

[Everything12]

I did look through the evidence of his profile, and it does seem to lack evidence that proves he is uninteractable because he is unchangeable.

@Celestial_Pegasus
Do you have any such evidence?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Scans are already on his profile that talk about how nothing has ever spiral up to his being, even Old Ones who he invited into his realm.

And he interacts with the world using avatars, do with that what you will.

But he is both an abstract and nonexistent, so really in general he is hard to affect without necessarily being acausal.

 

[Theglassman12]

What about Characters who exist beyond the fundamental rules to the point they can’t be affected by thing restrained by said rules, and abilities and weapons that exist outside of them can actually affect them. Does that count for type 5 or no?

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... this has no citations for Acausality type 5 to begin with

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

She just scales to God who is stated to transcend causality, and basically is immune to damage, as the laws of the universe and causality prevent that.

In order to be harmed God had to be made into a being who doesn't transcend causality.

 

[Bobsican]

I looked on God's profile, and uh... there's no citation for the "trascend causality" claim either, although there's this, which sounds rather vague by itself to be particularly acausality type 5 proof, if anything it sounds more like acausality type 1 and/or 4.

At best the sources are rather lacking for such an high-tiered ability so far, I'd suggest to bring more if there's as much as you say.

 

[Everything12]

Scans are already on his profile that talk about how nothing has ever spiral up to his being, even Old Ones who he invited into his realm.

And he interacts with the world using avatars, do with that what you will.

But he is both an abstract and nonexistent, so really in general he is hard to affect without necessarily being acausal.

Their has to be a bit more of a direct link between being uninteractable and being acausal. This doesn't really seem like it would be Acausality Type 5 instead of Acausality Type 4 + Nonexistent Physiology.

What about Characters who exist beyond the fundamental rules to the point they can’t be affected by thing restrained by said rules, and abilities and weapons that exist outside of them can actually affect them. Does that count for type 5 or no?

As stated, those rules have to be linked to causality in some way. But if they are affected by abiltiies and weapons that are also outside of those rules, then that shouldn't be that big of an anti-feat at all and long as their is some evidence to prove that they are uninteractable because of being acasual.

She just scales to God who is stated to transcend causality, and basically is immune to damage, as the laws of the universe and causality prevent that.

In order to be harmed God had to be made into a being who doesn't transcend causality.

Actually, I remember reading Tokyo Bable myself. I'm pretty sure them being immune to damage isn't Acausality but instead Causality Manipulation, in that whenever they are harmed the event of being harmed is erased, thus erasing the damage. (Kind of an anti-feat of Acausality Type 5 in a way)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That's all fine with me.

In particular M has multiple stuff going on and is a God tier, so someone even being able to harm in the first place, not likely to happen, unless Sona-Nyl gives more about his and Edison nature.

As for Tokyo Babel, I guess they would be type 4 maybe? God is also described as a reversal to causality.

 

[Bobsican]

Madoka Kaname

Type 5 Acausality is based on basically becoming incorporeal by becoming a concept in an "higher plane" as far I can tell from the scans themselves, there's also apparently this by extension causing her to be outside time, cause and effect, probably based on this quote:

What is more fascinating, a girl that neither existed in past memory nor future possibility, someone who should have no connection, no cause or effect to this world, joined seemlessly in your world. Well, there was never any need to search, from the begining you have made things easier for us, Akemi Homura. Even before this all started, you have always called the 'law of cycles' by the name of Kaname Madoka.

Thing is that there's nothing for this to be anything that wouldn't be covered by incorporeality, someone not having cause or effect in this context also sounds like just being inert, rather than acausal per-say, let alone some interactions appearing to happen either way as quoted.
Note that I'm a bit unsure myself, BTW.

 

[Hasty12345]

Arceus

Arceus is a Mythical Pokémon who is the leader and creator of the "Creation Trio" formed by Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, as well as the "Lake Trio" formed by Mesprit, Uxie, and Azelf, making it a Trio Master, and the only one who is that of two different trios. By bringing the trios into...

vsbattles.fandom.com

how's Arecus' acausality type 5 holding up?

 

[Jinsye]

Arceus type 5 is fine.

I'd also argue Madoka's is fine too. I am fairly sure Homura interacting with Madoka is noted to be an exception, rather than the rule. Saying that 'no cause and effect' means 'inert' instead of 'acausal' is silly for reasons I shouldn't have to state.

Being simply incorporeal would absolutely not cover having no cause or effect, so.

 

[Delta333]

Plus Madoka's acausal trait is different with that of WA Homura, which is already type 4

 

[deonment]

Homestuck
John Egbert
Aradia Megido
Caliborn
Calliope
Andrew Hussie
MSPA Reader
Dirk Strider
This is the list of all Homestuck characters with type 5 acausality from memory, if there are any more please inform me, but anyways.
They have no showings of interactivity and have many anti-feats to their status as type 5 and the only one that could maybe qualify is first guardian MSPA Reader, outside of them they either have no feats or too many anti-feats for them to be eligible for type 5, maybe yuri could explain why they should but otherwise, they should have the type 5 downgraded to really good type 4.

 

[Bobsican]

I was bored and decided to browse on way more Acausality type 5 characters, I'll also suggest for those knowledgeable in the series involved to check other characters with the power as chances are they may not qualify either:

Gods of Heaven (Mizukamiverse)
No explanations at all, honestly the page may even be deletion worthy with how bad it is.

Anos
Sounds more like Transduality type 2 (which is already a part of) as there's not enought to relate it with the new standards regarding causality as far I can tell.

Akuto Sai
No citations at all, and sounds rather vague even then for the purposes of the new criteria

Featherine Augustus Aurora
No justification

The Buddha (World of Darkness)
No justification

SCP-682
Justification is being on the same level of beings like this, which consumed this and is beyond it, which just... sustains time and is beyond it, I don't think they qualify...

Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics)
Honestly sounds way more like type 4 acausality if anything, nothing in there implies he's hard to interact with out of being beyond causality

JUDY
No justification

Azathoth (Cthulhu Mythos)
No justification

Yogiri Takatou
Relies on someone with type 4 acausality (with no scans, lol) perceiving him as "imperceptible / incomprehensible", while separately being stated apparently to be "beyond fate, plot and causality" and while there's plenty of references, there's no direct scans as far I can tell, so this may be a bit questionable, especially with how some parts seem rather vague as is.

The Downstreamers
No justification

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)
Preceding characters/cosmologies is in no way proof of acausality, let alone type 5, if there's more to this it should be added, or else removed

Anu
No justification

The Goddess of The Manifold
No justification

Gan
No justification

YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)
No justification

The Great Reason
No justification

Unicron
No citation, also pretty vague anyways

Luminous Being
No explanation

Wendy (Low Dimensional Game)
Being separate from cause and effect isn't enought on its own to have type 5 acausality anymore.

Sassy the Sasquatch
No justification, I recall Ultima is still working on the verse right now, however

Ayase Mika
No justification

The One
No justification

 

[Jinsye]

YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)
No justification

The Great Reason
No justification

Acausality and Immortality (Type 5): Archetypes are residents of the unconscious world of Atziluth, which is described as free of all time and causality, as well as the concepts of life and death[38].

Luminous Being
No explanation

Lumi is like, the DM. So it would be outside of any possible system of causality that could be set.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, my bad, I shouldn't have used source mode to quickly check them
Anyways, do we give type 5 acausality by being above the entirety of a cosmology in a verse? That seems rather lacking if you ask me

 

[Dereck03]

Anos
Sounds more like Transduality type 2 (which is already a part of) as there's not enought to relate it with the new standards regarding causality as far I can tell.

So being unbound, beyond and trascend the order of causality (at conceptual level even if transcending it at the conceptual level does not give anything special), all the cause and effect of the verse is not enough?

 

[Delta333]

Yogiri Takatou
Relies on someone with type 4 acausality (with no scans, lol) perceiving him as "imperceptible / incomprehensible", while separately being stated apparently to be "beyond fate, plot and causality" and while there's plenty of references, there's no direct scans as far I can tell, so this may be a bit questionable, especially with how some parts seem rather vague as is.

He transcends everything in verse, being unaffected fate and plot with both being tied with causality (at least with the context of ID) hence none of his attacks have any relation to cause and effect, HRE is acausal type 4 because it swims in the Sea that's outside of space time

There are scans but they're in random other abilities, kinda redundant to add them again for acausal type 5 justification

 

[Bobsican]

So being unbound, beyond and trascend the order of causality (at conceptual level even if transcending it at the conceptual level does not give anything special), all the cause and effect of the verse is not enough?

Going by the OP all what's left now is to just some feat of someone being unable to interact with it out of an unboundness to cause/effect (or at least some implication I suppose), although Anos' case is probably rather strong as is and could probably even remain as is if others agree on that, I'm just unsure myself.

 

[Bobsican]

He transcends everything in verse, being unaffected fate and plot with both being tied with causality (at least with the context of ID) hence none of his attacks have any relation to cause and effect, HRE is acausal type 4 because it swims in the Sea that's outside of space time

There are scans but they're in random other abilities, kinda redundant to add them again for acausal type 5 justification

I'd suggest to just add to the references such scans as well then, there's an option to reuse references to avoid redundancy if that's your concern.

 

[deonment]

Oh, my bad, I shouldn't have used source mode to quickly check them

Also Bob, please do not just read the Acasuality justification, as most of these have the descriptions for why they would qualify in the AP section, or have the acausality reasoning as a part of other justifications.

 

[Bobsican]

Aren't Acausality and AP now unrelated? At best they'd probably require some editing now.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Aren't Acausality and AP now unrelated? At best they'd probably require some editing now.

I don’t think we ever tried to connect AP with Acausality as that is odd.

 

[Vietthai96]

Aren't Acausality and AP now unrelated? At best they'd probably require some editing now.

Actually they are enough, all of these 1-A to tier 0 character always being described to be free from all kind of restriction, beyond dual distinction, etc........

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Actually they are enough, all of these 1-A to tier 0 character always being described to be free from all kind of restriction, beyond dual distinction, etc........

That is more from state of being and nature, not AP related.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh yeah, was thinking about Transduality.

In any case it seems inappropiate to give type 5 acausality to a character just by being higher-d than lower cosmologies and stuff, as that'd be just a trait of their dimensionality than a proper independance from acausality as a whole, at least not without further proof.

 

[deonment]

Aren't Acausality and AP now unrelated? At best they'd probably require some editing now.

Bob if someone wholly transcends the system in which a 2-A structure is defined, you cannot say that is just AP, that is objectively wrong

That is more from state of being and nature, not AP related.

What, no, state of being and AP are related, you can get AP based on your state of being or a state of being based on your AP, it just depends on the context

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Bob if someone wholly transcends the system in which a 2-A structure is defined, you cannot say that is just AP, that is objectively wrong

What, no, state of being and AP are related, you can get AP based on your state of being or a state of being based on your AP, it just depends on the context

Not necessarily true though. I don’t see why AP has to been directly tied to one’s state of being and their unique nature to begin with.

Also I don’t see this being that objective as this also relies on context.

 

[Dereck03]

Going by the OP all what's left now is to just some feat of someone being unable to interact with it out of an unboundness to cause/effect (or at least some implication I suppose), although Anos' case is probably rather strong as is and could probably even remain as is if others agree on that, I'm just unsure myself.

The only ones who can interact with Anos' source are those who can manipulate reason/logic. The latter is beyond order (Fate, Law, Concepts, Dualities) and entire reality itself. Such as himself, his MEoCD, Venuzdonoa, Sasha via her Eyes of Reason Destruction, Lay with Evansmana (Specially designed to be able to affect and destroy Anos) and Graham (Cus he himself is Aca 5) and Eques with their Acausality and TD negation. Both Graham and Anos are unbound of logic/reason so no one can interact with them unless they manipulate reason.

Anyway, I think I made it clear about Anos' stay at Aca 5.

 

[Bobsican]

Bob if someone wholly transcends the system in which a 2-A structure is defined, you cannot say that is just AP, that is objectively wrong

Uh... I never said it'd be AP, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[PainKiller07]

for Tokyo Babel, I guess they would be type 4 maybe? God is also described as a reversal to causality.

he was also stated to initially transcends causality. And this

But to answer your question, God is the one with Type 5 Acausality for a variety of reasons. God completely transcends causality to the point it is impossible to even perceive it, let alone interact with it. Was stated to be a reversal of causality and unbound by the laws of the Multiverse. Furthermore, not only is God was stated to be completely free from the shackles of Time itself, but also God exists in a completely higher plane of existence than Heaven which makes it impossible to interact with it despite Heaven being an infinite sized realm that's completely devoid of the concept of Time and where the borders of the concepts of past, present, and future remain vague. Attacks, defenses, and evasion are completely meaningless when faced with the true form of God, and neither can you confront him at all.

All of that stuff was discussed here.

Also, God's acausality is that of another category/superior to others in-verse (which also supports being acau 5), who should be acau 4, I'd make a quick revision for that.

 

[PainKiller07]

Also, God's acausality is that of another category/superior to others in-verse (which also supports being acau 5), who should be acau 4, I'd make a quick revision for that.

Here's the thread

 

[Everything12]

Madoka Kaname

Seems fine for Acausality Type 5.

Arceus

Arceus is a Mythical Pokémon who is the leader and creator of the "Creation Trio" formed by Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, as well as the "Lake Trio" formed by Mesprit, Uxie, and Azelf, making it a Trio Master, and the only one who is that of two different trios. By bringing the trios into...

vsbattles.fandom.com

how's Arecus' acausality type 5 holding up?

Missing mentions of being uninteractable because of being acasual, not enough for Type 5.

Homestuck

I agree, no actual evidence of being uninteractable because of acausality.

Anyways, do we give type 5 acausality by being above the entirety of a cosmology in a verse? That seems rather lacking if you ask me

We shouldn't if their is no direct evidence of being beyond causality or references toe being uninteractable because of being acasual. They still need to fulfil the same requirements as every other character.

So being unbound, beyond and trascend the order of causality (at conceptual level even if transcending it at the conceptual level does not give anything special), all the cause and effect of the verse is not enough?

Without evidence of being uninteractable because of being acasual? Yes.

He transcends everything in verse, being unaffected fate and plot with both being tied with causality (at least with the context of ID) hence none of his attacks have any relation to cause and effect, HRE is acausal type 4 because it swims in the Sea that's outside of space time

There are scans but they're in random other abilities, kinda redundant to add them again for acausal type 5 justification

Not enough if their is no evidence of him being uninteractable because of being acasual.

Actually they are enough, all of these 1-A to tier 0 character always being described to be free from all kind of restriction, beyond dual distinction, etc........

That's not enough if their is no specific mention of causality. Just saying they are free from all restriction, especially if their is no evidence that proves they are uninteractable because of being acasual.

The only ones who can interact with Anos' source are those who can manipulate reason/logic. The latter is beyond order (Fate, Law, Concepts, Dualities) and entire reality itself. Such as himself, his MEoCD, Venuzdonoa, Sasha via her Eyes of Reason Destruction, Lay with Evansmana (Specially designed to be able to affect and destroy Anos) and Graham (Cus he himself is Aca 5) and Eques with their Acausality and TD negation. Both Graham and Anos are unbound of logic/reason so no one can interact with them unless they manipulate reason.

Anyway, I think I made it clear about Anos' stay at Aca 5.

Still no evidence (scans) of being uninteractable because of being acausal.

 

[Omazio2019]

Madoka Kaname

Type 5 Acausality is based on basically becoming incorporeal by becoming a concept in an "higher plane" as far I can tell from the scans themselves, there's also apparently this by extension causing her to be outside time, cause and effect, probably based on this quote:



Thing is that there's nothing for this to be anything that wouldn't be covered by incorporeality, someone not having cause or effect in this context also sounds like just being inert, rather than acausal per-say, let alone some interactions appearing to happen either way as quoted.
Note that I'm a bit unsure myself, BTW.

I found this from Madoka Magica Online Skill Cards. Is the game canon?

 

[Everything12]

It wouldn't provide any evidence for anything that isn't proven by the current scans used regardless.