Restored Final Dragon Ball GT/Non-Canon Revision

[WindGodAcheron]

1. The particle shifting is to signify that Goku is teleporting. There's no reason for it to be any slower than the actual teleportation when it basically signifies that Instant Transmission has been activated.

Also, the manga is read right to left and the panel clearly shows Goku shifting (meant to be the first panel read), Cell widening his eyes to react to that (second panel), and then Goku appearing in front of him (third panel). So Cell briefly reacted to IT. And the anime, which is what we are talking about here, clearly shows Goku disappearing, Cell widening his eyes in response and Goku appearing while Cell is lowering his head.

King Kai was also able to react to IT, and although that's an outlier feat since he couldn't even keep track of Super Saiyan Goku when he fought Freeza, it shows that Instant Transmission is never portrayed as instant in any scene.

2. I'd appreciate a link when you actually find it. But, even then, Akira Toriyama's word is surpassed by feats.

3. There is no handful of times where it is portrayed differenty - there is literally not one singular scene in the anime or the movies where Instant Transmission is portrayed as actually instantaneous. Not one whatsoever.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think we should scale IT to combat speed or reactions. It's canonically instant, and reacting to it would be Infinite speed; which is a pretty obvious outlier. Reacting to them their fingers to their head is finite speed, but probably not that impressive. The IT is instant though.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

There is not one single scene, be it either in the manga or the anime, where Instant Transmission is instantaneous.

I can find you countless examples of Instant Transmission being not instantaneous and slower than something:

1. Cell's Kamehameha being faster than Instant Transmission.

2. King Kai reacting and recognized that Goku has used Instant Transmission, and telephatically yelling at him to go away a few seconds before he actually appears in his planet

3. Cell reacting to Instant Transmission

4. Goku and Cooler fighting in the window of time of Instant Transmission. Not only this, this scene' pretty clearly shows that Instant Transmission actually has a physical speed, since the background is moving at high speeds.

This is just what I have handy, but I am perfectly sure there are a whole lot just from memory. Unless we're going to believe every single feat is an outlier, then it's just clear that Instant Transmission isn't instant, nor was it ever portrayed or stated to be outside of a random Toriyama interview that gets trumped by feats.

 

[Kepekley23]

Believing that Instant Transmission is instantaneous sounds more like wishful thinking if there is literally not even one moment in the series where it is actually portrayed as instant.

 

[AKM sama]

1. The particle shifting is to signify that Goku is using IT. Exactly. And there's no reasons for it to be the same speed as IT. The shifting particle effect obviously consumes time that's why we are able to see it whenever he disappears or reappears. I'm saying the actual process after he completely disappears from one place and appears at another is instantaneous, even though the particles shift effect lingers for a short moment.

2. I'll have to search for it. Might take some time.

3. In the anime, Cell reacts to Goku's disappearance and when he looks below, Goku is already there. Nothing suggests that Cell reacted to IT.

Why to use such an iffy feat anyway when there are other solid feats in the quadrillions

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Anime characters having feats in the Quadrillions isn't problematic at all, nor is there anything wrong with DBZ manga characters having Massively FTL reactions if there's actual feats for it, but I vaguely recall DonTalk mentioning that using reaction time to calc speed is calc stacking.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

1. The particle shifting is a part of Instant Transmission and is never distinguished from it. You have not brought any in-universe evidence yet and are just telling me distinctions that are not stated by the characters. If one interview by Toriyama is stacked against multiple feats, then the multiple feats will always come out on top. Feats > Word of God is the rule in this wiki.

3. If you change your Youtube playing speed to 0.25x you can clearly see that Cell starts to lower his head before Goku actually appears in front of him. He reacted.

Because it is not actually iffy. Like, so far you have not shown me any examples of Instant Transmission being instant in the series. I have shown you five examples where its speed can be explicitly inferred from another object or person to demonstrate it is not instant, without any cinematic timing.

 

[Kepekley23]

My calc was just for fun and not applicable, most likely.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

> but I vaguely recall DonTalk mentioning that using reaction time to calc speed is calc stacking.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but I didn't do this. I just said that since Cell's Kamehameha traveled spatial distances before Instant Transmission ended, then it is faster than IT's speed in the same saga. Basic powerscaling. If a character quickly reaches the Sun with an energy blast, then someone who dodges that energy blast scales to its speed. Same thing.

 

[Dark649]

We should deal with the GT stuff, before talking about the speed stuff.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Okay.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Dark

What is even left to talk about though?

 

[Dark649]

So, it is decided then.

 

[Warren_Valion]

1. The particle shifting is a part of Instant Transmission and is never distinguished from it. You have not brought any in-universe evidence yet and are just telling me distinctions that are not stated by the characters. If one interview by Toriyama is stacked against multiple feats, then the multiple feats will always come out on top. Feats > Word of God is the rule in this wiki.
3. If you change your Youtube playing speed to 0.25x you can clearly see that Cell starts to lower his head before Goku actually appears in front of him. He reacted.

Because it is not actually iffy. Like, so far you have not shown me any examples of Instant Transmission being instant in the series. I have shown you five examples where its speed can be explicitly inferred from another object or person to demonstrate it is not instant, without any cinematic timing.

Lol.

 

[Kepekley23]

^ What is the "lol" about?

 

[Warren_Valion]

He made two points and labeled them "1" and "3".

I just found it humorous.

 

[Kepekley23]

He was replying to AKM, whose second point was just "I'll keep looking for this", so he probably skipped it on purpose.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Oh, I see.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

So what's the scaling chain for Omega Shenron's speed?

por favor

 

[Kepekley23]

SSJ4 Gogeta >>>> Omega Shenron >>>> SSJ4 Goku (Limits Surpassed, vs. Syn Shenron) and Vegeta >> Syn Shenron >>> SSJ4 Goku (Pre-Limits Surpassed, vs. Syn Shenron) >= Nuova Shenron >>>>>> Super 17 (Kamehameha Absorbed) >> SSJ4 Goku (vs. Super 17) >> SSJ4 Goku (Limits Surpassed, vs. Baby Vegeta) >> SSJ3 Goku (Hypothetical, vs. Super 17) >> SSJ2 Goku (Hypothetical, vs. Super 17) > Super 17 (Before Absorptions) > SSJ Goku (vs. Super 17) > SSJ4 Goku (Initial, vs. Baby Vegeta) >> Super Baby Vegeta 2 > Fused Oob > Super Baby Vegeta 1 > Base Baby Vegeta >= SSJ3 Goku >> SSJ2 Goku (vs. Baby) >> SSJ Goku (vs. Baby) >>>> Base Goku (vs. Baby) > SSJ Goku > Super General Rildo >General Rildo (Sigma Force Absorbed) > Base Goku (Planet M2) > General Rildo > Super Boo (Gohan Absorbed) > Super Boo (Gotenks Absorbed) > Ultimate Gohan >> SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Boo >> SSJ2 Gotenks >> SSJ Gotenks > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSj Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) >= Base Goku (Beginning of GT) = SSj3 Goku = Oob (Post-Timeskip) >= Kid Boo >> Base Goku (End of Z) > Mr. Boo >> SSJ2 Goku >> SSJ Goku (Boo Saga) >> SSj Goku (Cell Saga) = 70+ quadrillion times the speed of light

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Nice.

 

[Elizhaa]

Kepekley23, awesome work! With Reactive Power Level page, thanks god for it exists because it helps make sense of the scaling!

 

[AKM sama]

@WGA

The shifting particle effect or speed lines being a part of IT has no relevance to what I said. I saw the video in 0.25x speed and Goku was already there when Cell looked down. Yes there were the speed lines and I already pointed out that those speed lines linger for a moment just after reappearing, the same way those speed lines show just before Goku completely disappears. So in conclusion Cell reacted when he saw Goku disappear and looked down after Goku had already reappeared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s4B9IgaKqU&t=98s

 

[Warren_Valion]

@WGA
The shifting particle effect or speed lines being a part of IT has no relevance to what I said. I saw the video in 0.25x speed and Goku was already there when Cell looked down. Yes there were the speed lines and I already pointed out that those speed lines linger for a moment just after reappearing, the same way those speed lines show just before Goku completely disappears. So in conclusion Cell reacted when he saw Goku disappear and looked down after Goku had already reappeared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s4B9IgaKqU&t=98s

Cell moves his head down before you hear Goku phase back into existence.

 

[AKM sama]

Oh you're right. I did not listen to the audio previously.

Though I still stand by what I said about IT being instant. Any deviation from it in the anime can be seen as inconsistent portrayal when Akira Toriyama describes the technique he himself made, though I can see his word being secondary when talking about the anime.

 

[Kepekley23]

I agree that Akira Toriyama's word doesn't override feats.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Can we please remove the 3-B key from Toei Gogeta's profile?! Beating up a 3-C like Janemba affortlessly doesn't put him anywhere near 3-B key, since the AP gap between a 3-C and a 3-B is enormous as hell.

 

[Peter1129]

Gogeta's base form alone is stronger than Toei SS3 Goku since that's pretty much fusion works. And his Super Saiyan forms should make him 3-B via multipliers.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Can we please remove the 3-B key from Toei Gogeta's profile?! Beating up a 3-C like Janemba affortlessly doesn't put him anywhere near 3-B key, since the AP gap between a 3-C and a 3-B is enormous as hell.

The reason why he's "likely 3-B" isn't because he beat up Janemba, but because he is so much stronger to Goku's 3-C feat, which IIRC, is very high in the tier.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Gogeta's base form alone is stronger than Toei SS3 Goku since that's pretty much fusion works. And his Super Saiyan forms should make him 3-B via multipliers.

How is Base Gogeta even stronger than SSJ3 Goku when he doesn't even have a base form? Are we now just assuming things through damn fanfictions?

 

[Peter1129]

Base Gogeta not being shown in the movie doesn't mean he doesn't have a base form. His base form is logically much stronger than SS3 Goku which is why his SS1 form which is what his profile is based on is At least 3-C+ likely 3-B.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Base Gogeta not being shown in the movie doesn't mean he doesn't have a base form. His base form is logically much stronger than SS3 Goku which is why his SS1 form which is what his profile is based on is At least 3-C+ likely 3-B.

Prove to me Base Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Goku other than using headcanon.

 

[Peter1129]

Base Gotenks is stronger than both SS1 Goten and SS1 Trunks. And a fusion's base form is pretty much their strongest form multiplied. So yeah there done.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Gogeta's base form alone is stronger than Toei SS3 Goku since that's pretty much fusion works. And his Super Saiyan forms should make him 3-B via multipliers.

How is Base Gogeta even stronger than SSJ3 Goku when he doesn't even have a base form? Are we now just assuming things through damn fanfictions?

What do you mean Gogeta doesn't have a base form?

He immediately goes Super Saiyan, but he has a base form.

A base fusion is stronger than either individual being at full power. This is shown or is stated numerous times.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Base Gotenks is stronger than both SS1 Goten and SS1 Trunks. Done.

That's SSJ1 Trunks and SSJ1 Goten, not them in their SSJ3 form.

 

[HST_Master]

How is Base Gogeta even stronger than SSJ3 Goku when he doesn't even have a base form? Are we now just assuming things through damn fanfictions?

He does have a base form, he transformed into Super Saiyan upon fusion. Why would he not have base form?

 

[Peter1129]

@JohnCenaNation A fusions base form is pretty much the fusees strongest form added together and than multiplied. That's why Base Gotenks is stronger than SS1 Goten and SS1 Trunks.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

How is Base Gogeta even stronger than SSJ3 Goku when he doesn't even have a base form? Are we now just assuming things through damn fanfictions?

He does have a base form, he transformed into Super Saiyan upon fusion. Why would he not have base form?
It's never shown in movie or anywhere else, period.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

We know he has a base form the same way we knew Vegeta had a SSG form after we saw him in SSB.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

@JohnCenaNation A fusions base form is pretty much the fusees strongest form added together and than multiplied. That's why Base Gotenks is stronger than SS1 Goten and SS1 Trunks.

Potara Fusion multiplier =/= Fusion Dance mutliplier. It was proven many times by many statements that a Fusion Dance multiplier is much weaker than Potara Fusion multiplier. So we can't assume "Base Gogeta" is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Just because base Vegito is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, that doesn't mean Base Gogeta is.