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Restored Final Dragon Ball GT/Non-Canon Revision
- Thread starter Dark649
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"Popo is the one who states he has heard of Black Smoke Shenron, and that last time he appeared on a planet, multiple galaxies were instantly destroyed."
"Instantly" is worlds apart from "over time". The minus energy doesn't work instantly so it's not logical to assume that Black Smoke Shenron used the minus energy to destroy multiple galaxies. I don't see any legitimate proof that minus energy is AP, only vague assumptions.
Also, why exactly would the spirit bomb be 3-A?
"Instantly" is worlds apart from "over time". The minus energy doesn't work instantly so it's not logical to assume that Black Smoke Shenron used the minus energy to destroy multiple galaxies. I don't see any legitimate proof that minus energy is AP, only vague assumptions.
Also, why exactly would the spirit bomb be 3-A?
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Yi Xing Long fired three major times the negative energy karma ball:
1] The one used on Gogeta, which was the most powered up and powerful one. This particular one as what it is rated Universe level.
2] A weaker one against Kid Goku and co., which Goku was unable to redirect and exploded on him, it did not caused Universal damage at all.
3] And another weaker quickly charged one against the Spirit Bomb at 2:00, which was easily dissipated by the Spirit Bomb.
So, the Spirit Bomb should be just at least Multi-Galaxy level since it easily dissipated a weaker karma ball and destroyed Yi. Trying to argue that base goku is universe level because he tried to block and was hit by a karma ball is wrong since it was a weaker one and did not caused such damage.
1] The one used on Gogeta, which was the most powered up and powerful one. This particular one as what it is rated Universe level.
2] A weaker one against Kid Goku and co., which Goku was unable to redirect and exploded on him, it did not caused Universal damage at all.
3] And another weaker quickly charged one against the Spirit Bomb at 2:00, which was easily dissipated by the Spirit Bomb.
So, the Spirit Bomb should be just at least Multi-Galaxy level since it easily dissipated a weaker karma ball and destroyed Yi. Trying to argue that base goku is universe level because he tried to block and was hit by a karma ball is wrong since it was a weaker one and did not caused such damage.
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Omega survived Gogeta's Big Bang Kamehameha by vomiting the Dragon Balls away, but that didn't work out with the Spirit Bomb. But I can live with the Spirit Bomb not scaling.
@AKM
The assumption that is not logical here is assuming Popo wasn't talking about minus energy when his statement is made in response to Kibitoshin talking about the minus energy flooding out of the Dragon Balls, and him opening his statement with "I heard of that".
https://gfycat.com/ParchedDistinctArieltouca
@AKM
The assumption that is not logical here is assuming Popo wasn't talking about minus energy when his statement is made in response to Kibitoshin talking about the minus energy flooding out of the Dragon Balls, and him opening his statement with "I heard of that".
https://gfycat.com/ParchedDistinctArieltouca
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I'm pretty sure Word of God has stated on an interview that Goku was killed by the Minus Energy Ball on that scene, and became "something else"
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Not only that, a severely weakened Base Goku holding back an energy blast from someone who is many times stronger than his SSJ4 is PIS.
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I agree with Dark with respect to the universal spirit bomb
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Yeah, nothing suggests that Popo was talking about the minus energy being used for the destruction. He was talking about Black Smoke Shenron and how he appeared and destroyed stuff in the past, the method was neither stated nor implied. And assuming it is the minus energy goes against how the minus energy works.
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Goes against how you think it works, actually, and not what was actually necessarily established.
Kibitoshin is talking about minus energy and then Popo states he has heard of the same thing. The context is more than clear.
I'm sure you can explain why Oob stated that if the Minus Energy Power Ball touched the Earth it'd instantly destroy it, or why the buildings in its general range were getting destroyed as it was passing through the atmosphere.
But wasn't it not AP?
Kibitoshin is talking about minus energy and then Popo states he has heard of the same thing. The context is more than clear.
I'm sure you can explain why Oob stated that if the Minus Energy Power Ball touched the Earth it'd instantly destroy it, or why the buildings in its general range were getting destroyed as it was passing through the atmosphere.
But wasn't it not AP?
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Kibitoshin is talking about overuse of dragon balls causing the minus energy to leak out and eventually Black Smoke Shenron. And then Popo adds that he has heard of the same thing and that Black Smoke Shenron destroyed stuff. The context is more than clear and it's NOT suggesting "Black Smoke Shenron destroyed galaxies by using minus energy".
So the whole concentrated minus energy ball had the AP of destroying the planet. Still doesn't prove it has universal AP. The only way it can destroy the universe is by rotting the planets as stated. Which brings me back to my original question: can you prove the minus energy ball has universal AP?
So the whole concentrated minus energy ball had the AP of destroying the planet. Still doesn't prove it has universal AP. The only way it can destroy the universe is by rotting the planets as stated. Which brings me back to my original question: can you prove the minus energy ball has universal AP?
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I agree with Dark too.
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@AKM
One, no. Black Smoke Shenron is the embodiment of the minus energy that flooded out the Dragon Balls, as outright stated, and is the gathering of it. He can't have used anything else to perform his feat.
I see that you quickly changed the subject when I mentioned the Oob statement that proves that the Minus Energy is AP, then changed it again in the very next sentence. Make up your mind: Is the Minus Energy AP or not? If it isn't, why did Oob say the planet would be instantly destroyed? If it is, then why do you keep changing the goalposts?
One, no. Black Smoke Shenron is the embodiment of the minus energy that flooded out the Dragon Balls, as outright stated, and is the gathering of it. He can't have used anything else to perform his feat.
I see that you quickly changed the subject when I mentioned the Oob statement that proves that the Minus Energy is AP, then changed it again in the very next sentence. Make up your mind: Is the Minus Energy AP or not? If it isn't, why did Oob say the planet would be instantly destroyed? If it is, then why do you keep changing the goalposts?
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@AKM Sama
Every time anyone gives you proof, you back off for roughly two dozen posts, then you come back and demand the proof while repeating the exact same arguments that have been answered earlier. Likewise, you always ignore the condensed energy statements and keep harping on the same button, over and over again.
At least be honest and say "I disagree, the end." instead of performing this full-circle, please. It's fine to disagree. What is not fine is acting like proof doesn't exist, shutting up after said proof is linked, then reposting your original argument after a few posts, again and again.
Every time anyone gives you proof, you back off for roughly two dozen posts, then you come back and demand the proof while repeating the exact same arguments that have been answered earlier. Likewise, you always ignore the condensed energy statements and keep harping on the same button, over and over again.
At least be honest and say "I disagree, the end." instead of performing this full-circle, please. It's fine to disagree. What is not fine is acting like proof doesn't exist, shutting up after said proof is linked, then reposting your original argument after a few posts, again and again.
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I still don't know why Yi Xing Long can't receive a durability key by vomiting the Dragon Balls, though. It's clearly an extremely last-resort thing that he needs to do, so it wouldn't scale to his normal durability - and he survived a Big Bang Kamehameha by doing that.
"Multi-Galaxy level normally, Universe level by expelling the Dragon Balls (As a last-resort, he can expel the Dragon Balls away from his body in order to shield one of his remnants and regenerate from them. However, this makes him lose his Omega Shenron state)"
"Multi-Galaxy level normally, Universe level by expelling the Dragon Balls (As a last-resort, he can expel the Dragon Balls away from his body in order to shield one of his remnants and regenerate from them. However, this makes him lose his Omega Shenron state)"
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Don't know, maybe? Could use better wording though.
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>"He can't have used anything else to perform his feat."
A mighty assumption to make with nothing that supports it. He could have used a ki blast. Do other evil dragons not use ki blasts?
>"I see that you quickly changed the subject when I mentioned the Oob statement that proves that the Minus Energy is AP. If it is, then why do you keep changing the goalposts?"
The subject is still the same, whether the minus energy ball has universal AP or not. Nobody changed it. You can't give a proof of it having planetary AP and claim it to have universal AP. That's ridiculous.
>"Every time anyone gives you proof, you back off for roughly two dozen posts, then you come back and demand the proof while repeating the exact same arguments. What is not fine is acting like proof doesn't exist, shutting up after said proof is linked, then reposting your original argument after a few posts, again and again."
Yeah, because I can't spend 24 hours arguing on the internet. But what's funnily ironic here is that I still don't see a single valid proof of the minus energy having universal AP. What gives?
Anyway, I'll message more knowledgeable staff members who participated in the 3-B GT revision thread to comment here. If they all agree then my "disagreement" won't stand in the way.
A mighty assumption to make with nothing that supports it. He could have used a ki blast. Do other evil dragons not use ki blasts?
>"I see that you quickly changed the subject when I mentioned the Oob statement that proves that the Minus Energy is AP. If it is, then why do you keep changing the goalposts?"
The subject is still the same, whether the minus energy ball has universal AP or not. Nobody changed it. You can't give a proof of it having planetary AP and claim it to have universal AP. That's ridiculous.
>"Every time anyone gives you proof, you back off for roughly two dozen posts, then you come back and demand the proof while repeating the exact same arguments. What is not fine is acting like proof doesn't exist, shutting up after said proof is linked, then reposting your original argument after a few posts, again and again."
Yeah, because I can't spend 24 hours arguing on the internet. But what's funnily ironic here is that I still don't see a single valid proof of the minus energy having universal AP. What gives?
Anyway, I'll message more knowledgeable staff members who participated in the 3-B GT revision thread to comment here. If they all agree then my "disagreement" won't stand in the way.
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- Thread starter
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Maybe, but i don't recall Yi intentionally expelling out the dragon balls, we see that the attack destroyed him and caused most dragon balls in his possession to fall, however he survived and regenerated from a small piece or from a dragon ball thanks to having inherited Rage Shenron Regenerationn.
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@AKM Sama
Wait, so I assume you have finally conceded the Minus Energy is AP? Progress.
...But didn't your entire argument against the condensed energy point hinge on it not being AP...? Now that you have conceded that, you have literally nothing to back up your point.
Wait, so I assume you have finally conceded the Minus Energy is AP? Progress.
...But didn't your entire argument against the condensed energy point hinge on it not being AP...? Now that you have conceded that, you have literally nothing to back up your point.
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You have, for the third time in this thread alone, ignored the blog with all the evidence and just repeated "I don't see proof" like it's actually an argument.
> A mighty assumption to make with nothing that supports it. He could have used a ki blast. Do other evil dragons not use ki blasts?
1. What has nothing to support it is actually your argument. We see Kibitoshin explaining that the Evil Dragon is the embodiment of the minus energy flooding out of the Dragon Balls, and Popo replies to that saying he has heard of this event happening before.
2. The Evil Dragons' ki is purely formed of negative energy/minus energy. They don't have normal, mortal ki in the slightest. The Toei website for Episode 48 (which introduced Black Smoke Shenron) also states that the Evil Dragon (the japanese nickname for Black Smoke) uses minus energy in order to perform his destruction, which was linked above.
> The subject is still the same, whether the minus energy ball has universal AP or not. Nobody changed it. You can't give a proof of it having planetary AP and claim it to have universal AP. That's ridiculous.
AKM, what you are trying to do here is call attention away from the subject at hand and move the goalposts. We have linked you the blog which elaborates why the condensed energy is Universal in Attack Potency thrice already, and you always ignore it. Everyone has already told you why 2+2 is 4, if you want to ignore the reasoning and pretend there is no proof, have it your way. It won't change anything.
> A mighty assumption to make with nothing that supports it. He could have used a ki blast. Do other evil dragons not use ki blasts?
1. What has nothing to support it is actually your argument. We see Kibitoshin explaining that the Evil Dragon is the embodiment of the minus energy flooding out of the Dragon Balls, and Popo replies to that saying he has heard of this event happening before.
2. The Evil Dragons' ki is purely formed of negative energy/minus energy. They don't have normal, mortal ki in the slightest. The Toei website for Episode 48 (which introduced Black Smoke Shenron) also states that the Evil Dragon (the japanese nickname for Black Smoke) uses minus energy in order to perform his destruction, which was linked above.
> The subject is still the same, whether the minus energy ball has universal AP or not. Nobody changed it. You can't give a proof of it having planetary AP and claim it to have universal AP. That's ridiculous.
AKM, what you are trying to do here is call attention away from the subject at hand and move the goalposts. We have linked you the blog which elaborates why the condensed energy is Universal in Attack Potency thrice already, and you always ignore it. Everyone has already told you why 2+2 is 4, if you want to ignore the reasoning and pretend there is no proof, have it your way. It won't change anything.
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...gon_Ball_GT:_Elaborating_on_the_God-Tiers'_AP
For the third time in a row, Here is your proof. Now read i or at least acknowledge it's a thing.
For the third time in a row, Here is your proof. Now read i or at least acknowledge it's a thing.
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on board with 3-A universal spirit bomb, minus energy and SSJ4 gogeta FRA
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I read that blog already and now I feel like I'm repeating myself again and again. Okay let's see from the blog:
"This attack is stated twice, by both Oob and Yi, to be the combined negative energy of all the Evil Dragons condensed and heavily concentrated on a focal point in order to deal more damage"
No arguments here. That attack can obviously deal more damage.
As for the rest of the blog, I don't have any arguments.
Now if you realize, I didn't ignore the blog, the only thing I am contesting, is the assumption made that "minus energy ball can destroy everything in the universe using its AP" despite it being stated that's not how the universe is destroyed, in that very blog. So in short, the blog contradicts itself.
"This attack is stated twice, by both Oob and Yi, to be the combined negative energy of all the Evil Dragons condensed and heavily concentrated on a focal point in order to deal more damage"
No arguments here. That attack can obviously deal more damage.
- "I'm perfect. By obtaining the four star ball I have become perfect. From this moment on, I am god. I'll destroy anything and everything. The god of destruction. I'll utterly destroy the entire universe with my minus power."
- "Elder Kaioshin: And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won't stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear."
- "If the condensed Minus Power Ball can supply the energy required to destroy Universe 7 before it is fully depleted, that means its condensed energy output is 3-A"
As for the rest of the blog, I don't have any arguments.
Now if you realize, I didn't ignore the blog, the only thing I am contesting, is the assumption made that "minus energy ball can destroy everything in the universe using its AP" despite it being stated that's not how the universe is destroyed, in that very blog. So in short, the blog contradicts itself.
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> I already addressed this earlier. The context is simple, the minus energy overflowing from wherever it was used first will ROT the other planets and make them disappear. Nothing implies it is done by AP, the context implies the planets are destroyed because they rot and become unstable and it's not AP. We even see a pictorial representation of it.
You literally just conceded that the Minus Energy Power Ball is Attack Potency and now you're going back on it again - it can't be one nor the other.
The term "rotting" is used because the planets' positive energy decays completely, as explained by Kibitoshin when the Evil Dragon first appears. However, we know that the Minus Energy' is also Attack Potency because it destroys the planets - not only that, it also warps the space and the galaxies. Nothing is stated about lack of stability, that's your spin on the quote.
There is also a statement that WindGodAcheron neglected to mention that further proves the point:
After Omega Shenron absorbed the first six Dragon Balls, he stated that, with minus energy saturating his body, he would destroy the Earth and bring destruction for the entirety of the galaxy as well. This same method also counts for the rest of the universe, as stated by Elder Kaioshin (twice) and the Toei website.
Oob elaborated earlier on that the incredibly condensed negative energy of the Minus Ball would destroy the planet instantly upon touch; and we know that the Minus Energy Power Ball is the entirety of the sum of minus energy inside Omega; therefore his universal destruction counts as direct Attack Potency.
I hope this clears everything up.
You literally just conceded that the Minus Energy Power Ball is Attack Potency and now you're going back on it again - it can't be one nor the other.
The term "rotting" is used because the planets' positive energy decays completely, as explained by Kibitoshin when the Evil Dragon first appears. However, we know that the Minus Energy' is also Attack Potency because it destroys the planets - not only that, it also warps the space and the galaxies. Nothing is stated about lack of stability, that's your spin on the quote.
There is also a statement that WindGodAcheron neglected to mention that further proves the point:
After Omega Shenron absorbed the first six Dragon Balls, he stated that, with minus energy saturating his body, he would destroy the Earth and bring destruction for the entirety of the galaxy as well. This same method also counts for the rest of the universe, as stated by Elder Kaioshin (twice) and the Toei website.
Oob elaborated earlier on that the incredibly condensed negative energy of the Minus Ball would destroy the planet instantly upon touch; and we know that the Minus Energy Power Ball is the entirety of the sum of minus energy inside Omega; therefore his universal destruction counts as direct Attack Potency.
I hope this clears everything up.
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Kep's arguments for AP looks right.
To be honest, the arguments that Great Minus Ball is not AP looks like Argumentum ad nauseum, or argument from repetitio.
To be honest, the arguments that Great Minus Ball is not AP looks like Argumentum ad nauseum, or argument from repetitio.
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I agree with Kepekley as well.
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This thread in a nutshell (starting from 0:50)
Goku Genki Dama Vs Shenron (JAP) Remastered
Kepekley in this thread
Goku Genki Dama Vs Shenron (JAP) Remastered
Kepekley in this thread
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I agree.Dark649 said:
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