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Restored Final Dragon Ball GT/Non-Canon Revision

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Multiple translators have stated that the plural is accurate. Black Smoke Shenron is at the very least 3-B even disregarding the arguments in this thread, and he rivals a casual Omega Shenron.
 
You should contribute to deleting the derail, not to it. That just removes the attention from what is actually debatable.
 
First of all; the minus energy doesn't grow exponentially. That was never stated in the original Japanese version; it was a FUNimation-dub exclusive line. Elder Kaioshin actually states that the negative energy destroying the universe is just an after-effect of the massive influx of negative energy from the Minus Ball leaking a few remnants on the surrounding celestial bodies, proving it comes from the same source of energy.

Second; it being overtime doesn't matter to its Attack Potency. This is the third time I address this issue. The Minus Power Energy Ball is stated to be the heavily condensed minus energy of the Evil Dragons, attacking a single focal point. Although its area of effect isn't universal, its energy output is; I elaborate heavily on the arguments in my blog.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Multiple translators have stated that the plural is accurate. Black Smoke Shenron is at the very least 3-B even disregarding the arguments in this thread, and he rivals a casual Omega Shenron.
Click to expand...
Black smoke doesnt even rival base sd arc goku in power let alone supressed omega, we know this because goku wasnt worried about fighting black smoke even after feeling his ki which gohan stated was unbelievably strong for a villain, goku later states that base novas ki is above all the other shadow dragons ki he felt yet he had no issue in wanting to fight him

Also black smoke shenron was officially stated by toei to have the power to destroy the entire universe which includes the afterlife, kaioshin realm, etc which correlates to the scaling in gt
 
It clearly grows exponentially given it doesn't even destroy a planet at first, but as it spreads it causes increasingly higher destruction.
 
That's because the Minus Energy Power Ball is heavily condensed in order to do more damage to a specific area, not because it grows exponentially. It was stated that, were the combined negative power touch the Earth, it'd instantly destroy it.

Nothing suggests it grows exponentially; this is false and contradicts Elder Kaioshin saying the concentration of negative energy is on Earth - the surrounding stars are actually infected by small droplets overflowing from the original power source.
 
FallenProfit said:
Also black smoke shenron was officially stated by toei to have the power to destroy the entire universe which includes the afterlife, kaioshin realm, etc which correlates to the scaling in gt
Click to expand...
If you have this statement you can post it here.
 
@Dark649

He's talking about this statement:

http://web.archive.org/web/19980119044438/http://toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragonball/48.html

Which translates to:

"At last, Goku and his friends defeated Dr. Myuus ambitions. In order to resurrect Krillin and restore the ruined Earth, Goku and his friends gathered the dragon balls, but they had cracks in them. Nervous, Goku called Shenlong. But an Evil Dragon appeared instead, ready to do evil deeds. The evil Dragon stole the seven dragon balls and spread them all over the world! The evil Dragon seems to have been born because Goku and his friends have used the dragon balls too much. If they leave him alone, he would destroy not only the Earth but also the whole universe. What is the evil dragons power that can destroy the universe? And can Goku beat this mysterious power? Now a fierce battle over the destiny of the whole universe has begun." "

The context is likely the same as Omega's, which, since Black Smoke Shenron is the combination of all the Evil Dragons' negative energy much like Omega is, makes sense if this CRT ends up getting approved.
 
I'm personally neutral on the 3-A stuff. Obviously we don't really use assumed tier jumps from 3-B to 3-A given the massive gap, but I do vaguely recall a statement about Omega Shenron being able to gradually destroy the universe. If Omega Shenron's Negative Energy Ball is in a similar fashion to let's say Amon (StarCraft)'s 3-A feat, then they could. And SS4 Gogeta and Universal Spirit Bomb would scale accordingly. But is there context that would compare his attack to something like that?

Again, I'm neutral, but I think the main context for the 3-A stuff depends on the context of Omega Shenron's attack.
 
Kepekley23 said:
@Dark649

He's talking about this statement:

http://web.archive.org/web/19980119044438/http://toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragonball/48.html


Which translates to:

"At last, Goku and his friends defeated Dr. Myuus ambitions. In order to resurrect Krillin and restore the ruined Earth, Goku and his friends gathered the dragon balls, but they had cracks in them. Nervous, Goku called Shenlong. But an Evil Dragon appeared instead, ready to do evil deeds. The evil Dragon stole the seven dragon balls and spread them all over the world! The evil Dragon seems to have been born because Goku and his friends have used the dragon balls too much. If they leave him alone, he would destroy not only the Earth but also the whole universe. What is the evil dragons power that can destroy the universe? And can Goku beat this mysterious power? Now a fierce battle over the destiny of the whole universe has begun." "

The context is likely the same as Omega's, which, since Black Smoke Shenron is the combination of all the Evil Dragons' negative energy much like Omega is, makes sense if this CRT ends up getting approved.
Click to expand...
Black smoke is not the combination of all the shadow dragons, thats a common misconception, he simply unleashed the shadow dragons onto earth and then flew back to his own realm
 
That seems to be we written and makes sense. Still neutral, but leaning towards agreeing with the 3-A upgrade.
 
I'm also finally leaning towards agreeing with the upgrade after evaluating both sides so far.
 
@Dark649

Should Yi receive a 3-A durability key via regurgitating the Dragon Balls, since he survived a serious Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta's Big Bang KHH that way (Gogeta was only toying in order to purify the minus energy coating the Earth, after that point he was going to use his full-power to kill Yi)? Although it's a one-use-only durability, it should be notable.

Also, due to the Universal Spirit Bomb killing Yi Xing Long once and for all, it might scale to that durability key.
 
Likely not, Gogeta attack destroyed him in pieces and forced him to reform himself. Unlike Kid Buu Omega did not tried to push the attack since he knew that he had no chance against the Spirit Bomb, which was used since he was stronger than both SS4 Goku and Vegeta. Goku needed help from the other galaxies since his own is not enough to harm him. Lastly, in the db world chi users durability also scale to ap and striking.
 
I agree that most likely only the Universal Spirit Bomb should scale (aside from Gogeta), but Kid Boo only pushed the Spirit Bomb back because Goku was out of stamina when he fired it, not because he was comparable or anything. Just clarifying.
 
The Spirit Bomb Goku used on Omega =/= The one he used on Buu.

Also the power of the Spirit Bomb works on evil beings.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The Spirit Bomb Goku used on Omega =/= The one he used on Buu.
Also the power of the Spirit Bomb works on evil beings.
Click to expand...
It is made to kill evil beings. That doesn't mean it can't kill those who aren't evil (the fact that Goku temporarily refused to fire the Super Spirit Bomb because Vegeta would be caught in the explosion demonstrates that) or that it deals more damage for those who are evil (Freeza and Saiyan Saga Vegeta both surviving the Spirit Bomb shows that).
 
Unrelated but Goku intended to use the Spirit Bomb against Jiren, who is not evil by the way. I only mentioned Kid Buu because he was the only one aside from Jiren that was trying to push the bomb because Goku was running out of stamina before he was charged, Yi Xing knew that trying to block it was useless since it easily dissipated his strongest attack.
 
So, if I'm not mistaken, the consensus we have reached is:

  • 3-B Yi, 3-A with the Minus Energy Ball
  • 3-A Super Gogeta
  • 3-A Universal Spirit Bomb
 
I have updated Gogeta and Omega's profiles, although I will refrain from upgrading the Universal Spirit Bomb just yet. Is everyone on board with it scaling?
 
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