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Relooking at Mario's stats: the speed edition!

Dino_Ranger_Black said:
Ask for the Millennium Star, it's definitely stated that it fell from the sky though it also stated that it was in the center of the universe prior. This could mean either it flew to Earth before hand or that the planet is already within the center of the universe. But with both Galaxy games having Kamek has to warp the castle in the center of the universe in the first and Bowser flying there in the second, I believe we should go with the former possibility.
Click to expand...
 
Well, that's redundant, we expressed to know the feat and pointed out how even if it flew there it was only flight speed, the thing clashed to where it went.

The Prankster Comet's feat hasn't been accepted yet. Why do other things scale to it? Why do we use a zoomed out version of the game map for a calc?; Why aren't the timeframe and proportions shown inapplicable?
 
Prankster comets, Power Stars, and Lumas are all the same thing just different forms. Star Bits are also Massively FTL+ projectiles characters react to to repel regularly. Or character catch and collect star bits while maintaining Massively FTL+ speeds.
 
There are a few things going on there
  • The speed in which the comets move outside of galaxies isn't the same as when they stay in places
  • I didn't say it before but, as comets, it's unlikely for their speed to be their own and not something that happens to due to being comets naturally moved by other factors. That being even when as comets they can use powers and stuff
  • I don't think that Luma would have been able to do it without been fed first, hence it wasn't fat after doing it and similar to how they need to be fed to turn into galaxies and do other stuff
  • The feat is just teleporting the comet from one galaxy to another, not moving it, if what I said about the comets not always moving as fast is true then this feat wouldn't even be superhuman in speed. Even I were wrong, it would be only attack speed to teleport it, not something that would scale to Mario and others in any way
 
Eficiente said:
and similar to how they need to be fed to turn into galaxies and do other stuff
Click to expand...
Remembering SMG lore better Lumas only turn their normal bodies into celestial bodies at some point in their lives when they're grown enough. We can't just claim them to be able to do that at will.
 
Actually, that's only the case the first time. Once they're fed the first time, the pink Lumas actually do turn into galaxies and back at will; it's literally shown not assumed. It was brought up multiple times already. The Pink Lumas that reappear when you return are the same very same as the ones that created their respective galaxies given they recognize you as the person who fed them the first time.

Also, in Galaxy 2, it was shown the Lumas do numerous loops and twists while maintaining intergalactic flights. DatOneWeeb made a calc for those.
 
Ok. I do have things to say about it but Lumas should have a profile first.
 
I locked the Bowser page. What is left to do here?
 
I grow even more suspicious on the way DDM's approval is portrayed. We didn't finish talking about the Millennium Star feat and the Prankster comet, the latter needs to be removed.

Edit: @Maverick_Zero_X Yes.
 
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I thought Dino already explained that the Center of the Universe is clearly multiple galaxies away from the Milky Way based on Super Mario Galaxy context. Also, I thought DatOneWeeb calculated this feat, but I guess he hasn't yet. The Prankster comet calc was approved by Ugarik.

And I do pretty much agree with the hungry Luma teleporting a Prankster Comet in the first Mario Galaxy game being the most logical explanation. As for why Prankster Comets scale to the speed of Lumas; again. They're literally the same entities. Also, Green Power Stars were shown to move just as fast as all those comets in the same scenes. So we have evidence that Green Power stars and thus Green Lumas are just as fast the Prankster Comets, and we still have lore that Prankster Comets are Lumas too much like the galaxy birthing Pink Lumas are. DatOneWeeb also mentioned another good feat for the Green Lumas he's looking into.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I thought Dino already explained that the Center of the Universe is clearly multiple galaxies away from the Milky Way based on Super Mario Galaxy context.
Click to expand...
Why would the cosmology for this place be consistent over 2 different games in a verse as cartoonishly inconsistent as Mario when one take of the place didn't matter and in the other it barely did, seemingly contradicting the former as the star fell from there? In the 2 takes of the center of the universe it don't look alike, this seems like trying to pinpoint where does Bugs Bunny's hole in the forest is localized, or whatever example is slightly more fair, you get the idea.

The other problems of the feat still stand, do I need to repeat them? Particularly adding to the one saying that because it fell it's not its own speed, adding in how that happened due to lack of control over its powers, how wasn't conscious while it happened, the little impact of the thing clashing and how it's a "star" being born in space, it seems pretty clear how falling is akin to gravity doing things fall and it not using its powers well is simply not floating. Do I have to explain this?
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The Prankster comet calc was approved by Ugarik.
Click to expand...
And we're arguing it. 2 profiles were said to be comparable with no evidence and Bowser just got the big number as the first thing said in his speed with no justification. The priorities are messed up here, a better order would have been to talk out the feat first, then write it explained in profiles that scale to it, then have it calc'd and then add the calc on profiles.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
As for why Prankster Comets scale to the speed of Lumas; again. They're literally the same entities.
Click to expand...
Transforming gives powers, they turn into stuff with different functions and are excited to one day do so before it, why would a Luma that turns into an immobile star be as fast than one that turns into a comet? Why would one that will one day turn into a star also have just as much power as one that turns into a galaxy? And why would the Pink ones that turn back and forth be a rule and not an exception?
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, Green Power Stars were shown to move just as fast as all those comets in the same scenes.
Click to expand...
Can you show this?
 
Thank you for helping out Eficiente.
 
We already discussed the canonicity of the games numerous times; they are the same canon given the constant overlappings back to back. Super Mario RPG is canon to Paper Mario; so is Mario Party and Mario Golf canon to Paper Mario, Paper Mario is canon to Luigi's Mansion and Super Star Saga. Luigi's Mansion is canon to Super Mario Sunshine which in turn is canon to Thousand Year Door; which is a sequal to the original Paper Mario. Paper Mario series is canon to Partners in Time via official instruction Manuel statements, and the list seems to go on from there. Even remakes after Paper Jam that fixed a lot of translations left the whole "Paper Mario being on the list of Mario's earlier adventures" was left untouched. If they change a lot but leave a few other details untouched, then the untouched details are still canon as the default.

I believe the Fake Millennial Star still mentions traveling across the Universe. And there is no mention where it is, but it's a general default to consider "This part of the Universe" to be pretty far; intergalactic even. Even before the Galaxy 2 context, the logical lowball would still be Milky Way Galaxy to Andromeda Galaxy distance. But either way, future games can give more context to previous titles, it happens all the time. The Bugs Bunny's hole example isn't a good comparison because it's not some static one of a kind location, it's just something all over the place and there are many holes he has made to travel. Center of the Universe is just one specific location within the giant universe.

The first calc being the 800 trillion c's has something to do with a feat Rosalina had. But ever since the Rosalina downgrade, she's officially comparable to Mario and Bowser due Super Mario 3D World now. The Quadrillions of C is the speed of the Prankster Comets. And it's already explained it scattered a cross all those dozens of galaxies almost instantly in the video. It be well into Massively FTL+ however you look at it.

Pink Lumas were flying at Massively FTL+ speed right before they turn into galaxies. And returning to the stage, the Pink Lumas are back at the station pretty much the exact same time Mario's Luma flies him back to the station; still an intergalactic speed feat happening within seconds. The Pink Luma would have had to revert back into base form before it moved at said speeds; still Trillions of C. The Prankster Comets have multiple powers; they reality warp some of the galaxies to either amp everyone's speed, increase their power, make a time limit for some reason. But their speed seems to be one of the main things.

It happens the exact same video. The same video where all the Comets scatter across every single stage in the game is the exact same thing happening when all 120 Green stars scatter across all galaxy stages. It happens the instant you collect all those other 120 stars. I don't need to repaste the video already repasted multiple times on this very thread. Furthermore, Green Lumas apparently launch you all the way to the edge of the Universe or "The Corner of the Universe". Which yet again, each stage clear also flies Mario back via his Luma. So all Lumas are Massively FTL+ however you look at it.

I wait for DatOneWeeb to explain more, as I still have work today and like less than 10 minutes to looks at other 24+ notifications.
 
I also think that Medeus makes sense.

Also, thanks a lot for helping out so much. I really appreciate it. You are an awesome staff member.
 
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To clarify, I also think he's pretty good, just a bit inconsistent at times. Though my mention of him had less to do with him himself.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
We already discussed the canonicity of the games numerous times; they are the same canon given the constant overlappings back to back. Super Mario RPG is canon to Paper Mario; so is Mario Party and Mario Golf canon to Paper Mario, Paper Mario is canon to Luigi's Mansion and Super Star Saga. Luigi's Mansion is canon to Super Mario Sunshine which in turn is canon to Thousand Year Door; which is a sequal to the original Paper Mario. Paper Mario series is canon to Partners in Time via official instruction Manuel statements, and the list seems to go on from there. Even remakes after Paper Jam that fixed a lot of translations left the whole "Paper Mario being on the list of Mario's earlier adventures" was left untouched. If they change a lot but leave a few other details untouched, then the untouched details are still canon as the default.
Click to expand...
What I said didn't put the canon into question, but how much some very specific, unimportant place in one old game would remain the same in another game when they don't look the same.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I believe the Fake Millennial Star still mentions traveling across the Universe. And there is no mention where it is, but it's a general default to consider "This part of the Universe" to be pretty far; intergalactic even. Even before the Galaxy 2 context, the logical lowball would still be Milky Way Galaxy to Andromeda Galaxy distance.
Click to expand...
It traveling wouldn't be wrong for someone that's falling, but trying to look up that for context I found this scene where he flies away from someone of the cast, the latter being helpless to stop it and moving a miserable distance while the Fake Millennial Star goes away faster. He doesn't even fly at you in their battle. I do find reasonable for the distance to be intergalactic despite being quickly traveled by "falling", but because of it I still find far more likely for the matter to be full of Toon Force/nonsense and falling down in space being probably due to gravity moving him down, not his own powers and speed, let alone the speed in which he can react to and combat as he clashed where he ended up.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But either way, future games can give more context to previous titles, it happens all the time. The Bugs Bunny's hole example isn't a good comparison because it's not some static one of a kind location, it's just something all over the place and there are many holes he has made to travel. Center of the Universe is just one specific location within the giant universe.
Click to expand...
Well, you did miss the point of what I said, I figured the example wasn't good but the point was that establishing something unimportant in an inconsistent verse to have it brought up later in a different way only retcons the matter. You're not wrong that future games can give more context to previous titles, but retcons are a thing too, SMG and SMG2 made no mention of stars like the Fake Millennial Star and real one being born in the universe like we saw in that Mario Party, they seem to only portray the Lumas as what cover all the cosmos and make up the universe, is this not suspicious for you?
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The Quadrillions of C is the speed of the Prankster Comets. And it's already explained it scattered a cross all those dozens of galaxies almost instantly in the video. It be well into Massively FTL+ however you look at it.
Click to expand...
This ignores my issues with using the game map. I don't see any video being linked here or in the calc, if you mean that gif in the calc then that's even more unreliable.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Pink Lumas were flying at Massively FTL+ speed right before they turn into galaxies. And returning to the stage, the Pink Lumas are back at the station pretty much the exact same time Mario's Luma flies him back to the station; still an intergalactic speed feat happening within seconds. The Pink Luma would have had to revert back into base form before it moved at said speeds; still Trillions of C.
Click to expand...
It would be reasonable for them to be that fast due to being right before turning into that, that's consistent with all characters that turn into planet and bigger things under their own power. You just showed me a fed Luma being able to teleport a comet from 1 galaxy to another, if they can teleport, and they're even already there without being seen before someone comparable gets there, then it's not a feat. Mario even needs that star-shaped device to travel and Lumas can turn into it, so couldn't they have created 1 for themselves?
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The Prankster Comets have multiple powers; they reality warp some of the galaxies to either amp everyone's speed, increase their power, make a time limit for some reason. But their speed seems to be one of the main things.
Click to expand...
They seem random and affecting the overall areas around them without the comets themselves making any notable job tagging anything, this doesn't remove at all how comets aren't space ships that move because of their own speed.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It happens the exact same video. The same video where all the Comets scatter across every single stage in the game is the exact same thing happening when all 120 Green stars scatter across all galaxy stages. It happens the instant you collect all those other 120 stars. I don't need to repaste the video already repasted multiple times on this very thread. Furthermore, Green Lumas apparently launch you all the way to the edge of the Universe or "The Corner of the Universe". Which yet again, each stage clear also flies Mario back via his Luma. So all Lumas are Massively FTL+ however you look at it.
Click to expand...
I saw all the thread and I didn't see that video once, even then that fits on what I said about the comet not always having the same speed (like comets do anyway). The speed in which Mario's being launched doesn't matter for combat as it's a predetermine trajectory (explicitly faster than what he can move too). Doesn't the star they collect do that with its power? Hence they float before having it and stuff.
 
Okay, not really commenting on the canon. But if the Galaxy games no mention of Milenial Star, it doesn't really alter anything about his story or feat. He exists just as much as Lumas, or some can speculate he's a Luma too. Not saying he is and leaning towards him not. But I'll address other details. I still think the "Center of the Universe" should still logically be just as far away from the Milky Way Galaxy.

Also, a "Star fell from the sky" is just a figure of speech. It just means he flew really fast, but as shown, he actually does seem to fly to other places at will; so I find it arbitrary to assume he simply flew by accident. Also, Wario/Mario/Luigi wasn't trying to stop him, so not a legit anti-feat. I still think he's safe to say he's naturally capable of flying at extreme speeds. I'm okay with removing it from Mario or Bowser's profile, but it should still be his own speed once he gets his own profile.

It's in the blog; there's the GIF, and multiple links. Also, those are game maps within game maps; they're all legit multi-galaxy sized and especially world 5. It still crossed them all and scattered to every galaxy within seconds. That was DatOneWeeb who showed you that, but that actually seems inconsistent; and that Luma seems to only be able to do it while fed. I'm not going to try to calc speed based on that, but they still have other speed feats. But there's already a multitude of flight speed feats outside of Launch Stars or done by Lumas were weren't being fed a bunch of star bits.

Comets also turn into Power Stars when you clear the challenge, so it's also consistent with Power Stars having their massively FTL+ speed feats as are Lumas. This is still literally every single mission cleared.

I also forgot to mention this scan. Also, no one is using the Launch Stars themselves to justify speed; though it is a solid range feat. However, there's the fact that the Power Star still takes Mario back at the same time frame as the Launch Star launch. So it is pure speed for the Power Star. As for why this scales and to counter the arguments of, "Mario doesn't fly that fast the Luma or Power Star does". Mario cannot naturally fly without power ups. It's not an argument against his combat speed or reactions, just flight speed. There are plenty of characters who are FTL in terms of combat speed or short burst flight speed, but limited to short bursts and need a spaceship just to exit Earth's atmosphere. Mario still battles Power Star amped foes without carrying one himself all the time. Power Stars amp, strength, durability, and speed. Also, the Lumas are consistently been shown more than capable to control their flight pattern much like Superman and the like. They can also actively catch Star Bits while maintaining Massively FTL+ flight speeds. If your telekinetic hands move faster than your flights, it scales to combat speed and reactions.
 
So what do you think that we should do here Medeus?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, a "Star fell from the sky" is just a figure of speech. It just means he flew really fast, but as shown, he actually does seem to fly to other places at will; so I find it arbitrary to assume he simply flew by accident. Also, Wario/Mario/Luigi wasn't trying to stop him, so not a legit anti-feat. I still think he's safe to say he's naturally capable of flying at extreme speeds. I'm okay with removing it from Mario or Bowser's profile, but it should still be his own speed once he gets his own profile.
Click to expand...
It's not poetic, just part of the nonsense/Toon Force of the verse, the star was floating slightly up and down at first, then it was struggling to keep itself in place and then when it fell went spinning vertically, uncontrollably. It's not impossible that it flew, but based on context it's far more likely to take the text at face value that it "fell from the starry sky", at least if it flew he had to do so by accident. It being able to fly fast doesn't add into it. It flying away from the cast serves as context.

It can have it as Flight Speed but I don't think that would translate into going into any direction that isn't down "from the starry sky".
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It's in the blog; there's the GIF, and multiple links. Also, those are game maps within game maps; they're all legit multi-galaxy sized and especially world 5. It still crossed them all and scattered to every galaxy within seconds. That was DatOneWeeb who showed you that, but that actually seems inconsistent; and that Luma seems to only be able to do it while fed. I'm not going to try to calc speed based on that, but they still have other speed feats. But there's already a multitude of flight speed feats outside of Launch Stars or done by Lumas were weren't being fed a bunch of star bits.
Click to expand...
On the latter, again I'll wait for Lumas to have profile, see all the feats listed and linked (hopefully with their context around). I see the gif and videos showing the world maps and first level in world 5, but I don't see where the Comets scatter across every single stage in the game and so I kinda fear the feat calc'd may be just fabricated to represent the Comets doing what they did and not it actually passing by those worlds while super far away from them. I have no idea why are you telling me that they're game maps within game maps, that's something that can be a thing, you got a map for the worlds and a map for the inside of a world, that doesn't at all mean the distance, proportions and timeframe of the stuff going o shown are to be taken at face value. The part of the timeframe talks for itself but particularly the distance from each world should be bigger and the size of all of them seems pretty unlikely to be the same given what world 5 has inside it, in any case, we don't know that nor other less notable things.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Comets also turn into Power Stars when you clear the challenge, so it's also consistent with Power Stars having their massively FTL+ speed feats as are Lumas. This is still literally every single mission cleared.
Click to expand...
They do have those feats, the Power Star is taking Mario.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Mario still battles Power Star amped foes without carrying one himself all the time. Power Stars amp, strength, durability, and speed. Also, the Lumas are consistently been shown more than capable to control their flight pattern much like Superman and the like. They can also actively catch Star Bits while maintaining Massively FTL+ flight speeds. If your telekinetic hands move faster than your flights, it scales to combat speed and reactions.
Click to expand...
On the latter, it shouldn't scale as the Star Bits go to fly at the same speed as you because of wacky physics (or the power of what makes Mario fly, like with a Power Star taking Mario without touching him). Lumas do seem to have solid feats but on Mario beating Power Star-amped foes I'll just wait for us as a wiki to have standards for scaling characters to getting powered by X things and thus having the same tier.
 
I don't recall where it's stated or shown how the Millennial Star moves specifically; it just says "It falls from the stars every 1000 years" so I don't actually know the full context of it. It does appear to more or less be portrayed as a Massively FTL+ intergalactic meteor as the most logical conclusion, yes. I can agree with removing it from the list of combat speed feats. But as agreed, Millennial Star may have his own profile and have it listed there.

I don't think RTX is deliberately fabricating; perhaps misunderstanding certain details, but he's a genuinely reasonable guy who tries to look for consistent or accurate from my experience. However, when I mean world maps within world maps. There is a selection for each and every one of the 6 worlds, and then when you enter one, it zooms in to basically show you the the list of galaxy/stages. And in World 5's case, there is a giant collection of galaxies within it. Also, the video portrays the comets as some kind of super giant intergalactic meteor shower. That one comment seen crossing the 6 Super galaxies containing many galaxies could be an eye trajectory error though I agree. But if some intergalactic meteor shower still covered all those galaxies in seconds; I'm positive it would still be well into Massively FTL+.

Well, I still brought it up because Mario still has other reasons to be comparable to Lumas at least in terms of combat speed. I think we should probably use some degree of common sense; if Mario was truly meant to be so much slower or weaker than all those Lumas, why would he even be the main hero to begin with? He does have notable limits such as not being able to fly on his own, but his combat speed shouldn't be weaker than that of a Lumas. Not to mention, Bowser regularly terrorized Lumas with them having no chance to escape him even before he stole any Power Stars; giving the impression he's naturally that fast. Also, whether the Lumas react to catch star bits, or star bits simply fly at will, it would still scale. Rosalina block star bits regularly so it scales to her reactions. And Star Bits have their own intergalactic flight speed travel.

Also, just some other heads up, Mario and Luigi do have some FTL speed feats in the Mario & Luigi series. They do dodge sunlight beams in Superstar saga that were channeled through a magnifying glass. And also, in Dream Team; there's plenty of Massively FTL+ speed feats. The Giant battles showcase Mario riding on a star to do a finishing move against various giant enemy bosses. He also dodging things mid flight and it's pretty much cut in paste the same context as Kirby's various Massively FTL+ speed feats. I forgot where the screenshot was, but someone showed a screen shot of them "Traveling so fast, they cross dimensions via sheer flight". I know that's more so dimensional travel rather than calculatable speed, but it adds to consistency of flight speed being comparable to combat speed and reactions.
 
Just to clarify, I did not fabricate it. I got the gif from somewhere else, but the feat itself is legit, as seen here. As you can see, you can see one comet crossing all the worlds, and the rest crashing across every stage. And as Lubba says, the comets swarmed all over the universe. If that's not what you meant, please let me know.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I don't recall where it's stated or shown how the Millennial Star moves specifically; it just says "It falls from the stars every 1000 years" so I don't actually know the full context of it. It does appear to more or less be portrayed as a Massively FTL+ intergalactic meteor as the most logical conclusion, yes. I can agree with removing it from the list of combat speed feats. But as agreed, Millennial Star may have his own profile and have it listed there.
Click to expand...
I agree, things like it can make it legit Flight Speed.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I don't think RTX is deliberately fabricating; perhaps misunderstanding certain details, but he's a genuinely reasonable guy who tries to look for consistent or accurate from my experience. However, when I mean world maps within world maps. There is a selection for each and every one of the 6 worlds, and then when you enter one, it zooms in to basically show you the the list of galaxy/stages. And in World 5's case, there is a giant collection of galaxies within it. Also, the video portrays the comets as some kind of super giant intergalactic meteor shower. That one comment seen crossing the 6 Super galaxies containing many galaxies could be an eye trajectory error though I agree. But if some intergalactic meteor shower still covered all those galaxies in seconds; I'm positive it would still be well into Massively FTL+.
Click to expand...
I didn't mean that the user himself made the feat but that the feat itself not being meant to be 100% literal due to happening in a game map and not following the trajectory in which that thing ended up. It traveling in the universe adds little as that's still correct to say from any point of view. It would still be Massively FTL+ but removing the timeframe into whatever context we get from what's stated. This ignoring how I still think that the speed of the comets vary when traveling into other planets and going over there, the latter being far, far less notable.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Well, I still brought it up because Mario still has other reasons to be comparable to Lumas at least in terms of combat speed. I think we should probably use some degree of common sense; if Mario was truly meant to be so much slower or weaker than all those Lumas, why would he even be the main hero to begin with? He does have notable limits such as not being able to fly on his own, but his combat speed shouldn't be weaker than that of a Lumas. Not to mention, Bowser regularly terrorized Lumas with them having no chance to escape him even before he stole any Power Stars; giving the impression he's naturally that fast.
Click to expand...
Sure, Mario scales. As said before, I'm not specifically againt MFTL+, just against things as I see them and believe them to be wrong. Though, again, I'll check them once they may have profiles.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, whether the Lumas react to catch star bits, or star bits simply fly at will, it would still scale. Rosalina block star bits regularly so it scales to her reactions. And Star Bits have their own intergalactic flight speed travel.
Click to expand...
Didn't know the latter, how's that? I mean they get near people flying without anyone making them do that, don't they just get attracted via gravity or something? Or is the feat another?
 
So does somebody have suggestions for how we should solve this disagreement?
 
I mean, Matt and Eficiente agree with one side (Does Matt count, I will assume yes for now?)
Ant and DDM are on the other.
Though counting the knowledge non-staff (possibly weeb and NAMFL) more lean towards DDM.
Either call one more staff as tie-breaker or, if you count the non-staff, go with DDM.
 
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