Reinhard Heydrich vs The Star Maker

[Sandman31]

Just want to gauge the Star Maker's power

The Star Maker in his aspect as the Ultimate Spirit vs Reinhard

The Star Maker :

Reinhard Heydrich :

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Oh shit. This gonna be good

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

 

[Eganergo]

Following this juicy thread now.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

how far above baseline is star maker i know for a fact that star maker is above baseline

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I heard there were some arguments over him possibly being high 1-A, so i would guess pretty high, but I honestly do not know

 

[Warren_Valion]

Damn, I was thinking of doing this.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Here,i'm still waiting for Azana profile so i can make Ren/Satanel vs Azana match.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Here,i'm still waiting for Azana profile so i can make Ren/Satanel vs Azana match.

Whose Azana?

 

[PsychoWarper]

Oh this should be interesting.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ential_Seed/Human_Azathoth_(_Chutlhu_Mythos_)

This one.

 

[Warren_Valion]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ential_Seed/Human_Azathoth_(_Chutlhu_Mythos_)
This one.

How far is Demonbane into the 1-A scale?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Isn't Star makes potentially tier 0?

 

[Warren_Valion]

From what I'm reading on Star's profile.

It sounds like he made infinite parallel beyond-dimensional creations, and then created a greater creation with the Ultimate Cosmos, which seems to be infinitely beyond the infinite parallel beyond-dimensional creations, and then fused with his creation to become infinitely stronger.

Did I get that right?



He sounds like he's 3 or 4 (maybe 5) levels of infinity above baseline Outerversal to me.

Reinhard is 80-90 depending on the route.

I think you can see where I'm going with this.


Just my take from the description on his profile, I might be wrong though.

 

[Sandman31]

The hierarchy of Creations aren't parallel beyond dimensional creations, it's an infinite hierarchy of "cosmoses" Each of these cosmoses are much more complex than the last. It's a hierarchy of infinitely diverse (it doesn't only contain outerversal cosmoses but other more) cosmos with the Ultimate Cosmos being the most complex

 

[PsychoWarper]

Alright so how many levels above baseline is he/it?

 

[Warren_Valion]

The hierarchy of Creations aren't parallel beyond dimensional creations, it's an infinite hierarchy of "cosmoses" Each of these cosmoses are much more complex than the last. It's a hierarchy of infinitely diverse (it doesn't only contain outerversal cosmoses but other more) cosmos with the Ultimate Cosmos being the most complex

Do you have a quote or something that say that it is an infinite hierarchy?

Because from the profile, it sounds like parallel creations.


And I'm pretty sure The Ultimate Spirt would be Tier 0 if it transcended something that transcended an infinite hierarchy of transcendent space and had no weaknesses and no one beyond or comparable to him.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

The hierarchy of Creations aren't parallel beyond dimensional creations, it's an infinite hierarchy of "cosmoses" Each of these cosmoses are much more complex than the last. It's a hierarchy of infinitely diverse (it doesn't only contain outerversal cosmoses but other more) cosmos with the Ultimate Cosmos being the most complex

That is correct, and I think Star Maker should be tier High 1-A or 0

 

[Sandman31]

In vain my fatigued, my tortured attention strained to follow the increasingly subtle creations which, according to my dream, the Star Maker conceived. Cosmos after cosmos issued from his fervent imagination, each one with a distinctive spirit infinitely diversified, each in its fullest attainment more awakened than the last; but each one less comprehensible to me. At length, so my dream, my myth, declared, the Star Maker created his ultimate and most subtle cosmos, for which all others were but tentative preparations. Of this final creature I can say only that it embraced within its own organic texture the essences of all its predecessors; and far more besides. It was like the last movement of a symphony, which may embrace, by the significance of its themes, the essence of the earlier movements; and far more besides. This metaphor extravagantly understates the subtlety and complexity of the ultimate cosmos. I was gradually forced to believe that its relation to each earlier cosmos was approximately that of our own cosmos to a human being, nay to a single physical atom. Every cosmos that I had hitherto observed now turned out to be a single example of a myriad-fold class, like a biological species, or the class of all the atoms of a single element. The internal life of each "atomic" cosmos had seemingly the same kind of relevance (and the same kind of irrelevance) to the life of the ultimate cosmos as the events within a brain cell, or in one of its atoms, to the life of a human mind

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well if The Star Maker is High 1-A (Wont mention 0 as it sounds like it may be removed soon) then this would be a stomp wouldnt it?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Snip

While I understand why you would think each creation is hierarchical, I can easily see it in a different light, especially with how vague the wording is.

To me, it just sounds like with each creation, he's creating more and more subtle details within it, perfecting his craft as a creator. Not necessarily that each new creation is more "beyond-dimensional".


I'll make an example.

Let us say I created a universe, and nothing is in it. Then, I create one, identical in size, but with something in it; let us say gases and elements. And then, using my previous two universes as a template, I create another universe with stars and planets. And then I create another universe with people and civilizations in them. And another with something else, and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Each universe I create is more subtle, complex, and brilliant than the last, and less and less comprehensible to beings that don't possess my level of intelligence, but I'm not using more power in creating each consecutive universe. They are always the same size, it is always a Low 2-C feat. As I've never shown the capability to create more than one universe simultaneously nor do I possess it. Even though the universes I created are different and unique from another. They're grander and less comprehensible, but not bigger or greater per say.

For a more human example, compare a mangaka who draws a character when their series first starts to them drawing the same character years later when their series ends. The level of skill increases dramatically, even to the point where the art style may look radically different to what it looked like originally.

Here is a visual of such an example with Tite Kubo's Bleach:

 

[Sandman31]

The cosmoses are not identical in size though. It's a hierarchy where each cosmos is bigger, more complex, than the last.

Sometimes the Star Maker fashioned a cosmos which was without any single, objective, physical nature. Its creatures were wholly without influence on one another; but under the direct stimulation of the Star Maker each creature conceived an illusory but reliable and useful physical world of its own, and peopled it with figments of its imagination. These subjective worlds the mathematical genius of the Star Maker correlated in a manner that was perfectly systematic. I must not say more of the immense diversity of physical form which, according to my dream, the early creations assumed. It is enough to mention that, in general, each cosmos was more complex, and in a sense more voluminous than the last

 

[Warren_Valion]

Well, okay then, I concede.

Although the Ultimate Spirit should probably be Tier 0 then.

And Creative mode seems to be infinite levels of infinity above baseline Outerversal if I'm looking at it right.

You might wanna get a Masada expert to look at this to give you their take, but I'm pretty sure both the Creative Mode and Ultimate Spirit stomp Masadaverse into oblivion like the Mythos does.

 

[Sandman31]

Well, he's supposed to be an "at least 1-A" .

It's just that the At least 1-A subtier itself is pretty unclear which was why Shub-Niggurath was "downgraded" to only 1-A

All of the cosmos that were seen/explained in the book, as explained above, are just a single example of a myriad-fold class. The non-spatial cosmos is just a single example of that type of cosmos. Same with cosmoses that are non-geometric and cosmoses that has no physical nature. There's an infinite number cosmoses with infinite diversity. The immature cosmoses that the immature Star Maker made were probably limited because he was limited by logic and his immaturity, once he matured he lost those limitations.

Then there's the Ultimate Cosmos

 

[Warren_Valion]

Well, he's supposed to be an "at least 1-A" .
It's just that the At least 1-A subtier itself is pretty unclear which was why Shub-Niggurath was "downgraded" to only 1-A

All of the cosmos that were seen/explained in the book, as explained above, are just a single example of a myriad-fold class. The non-spatial cosmos is just a single example of that type of cosmos. Same with cosmoses that are non-geometric and cosmoses that has no physical nature. There's an infinite number cosmoses with infinite diversity. The immature cosmoses that the immature Star Maker made were probably limited because he was limited by logic and his immaturity, once he matured he lost those limitations.

Then there's the Ultimate Cosmos

Yeah, I would definitely support this guy being a Tier 0 as The Ultimate Spirit, he transcends so much infinite shit. Is there something to suggest he's not Omnipotent at his strongest?

 

[Sandman31]

Welp, I tried upgrading him. Apparently not enough but what I said above still stands

 

[BleedingPeach]

This doesn't count as stomp but I think LLT isn't the best weapon against it. I don't think the Maker would do things in a Hajun-way but it won't let Reinhard win.

 

[Sandman31]

bumps

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Can Reinhard beat his Plot Manipulation? If not, then isn't this The Star Maker's win?

 

[BleedingPeach]

Now that I read the first post, I know it's the Ultimate Spirit so even Reinhard's Law would be useless against it. I don't think it would be able to kill it since we're talking about a thing who can compare to Hajun.

 

[Eganergo]

My vote goes to inconclusive easily due to their Regenerationn and Reinhard being resistant to plot manipulation.

Rein can kill true godly tho.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Rein is 90 degrees of transcendence above baseline

Star Maker is infinite degrees of transcendence

Plot manip is just salt on the wound

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

What impossible! Reinhard can do that and how exactly?

 

[BleedingPeach]

That form of the Maker is actually pretty overpowered. When I said that it could be compared to Hajun I wasn't wanking the character. Basically it "could be" Tier 0 for some staff members in this post (is VSBW but I didn't know how to pass the link correctly) but I didn't finished the novel yet so Sandman31 could give us a better explanation about its level.

 

[Kamunagara]

In regards to the infinite transcending thing of Star Maker, I don't see how it transcends infinite hierarchies. There's infinite cosmos, each more complex than the one before, but that's not transcension. That's just undefinable improvement. Besides, pure volume/size doesn't matter to Shinza series gods. Yato ruled only Edo, but was more powerful than everyone except Hajun.

From what I see, in terms of power set it's almost like Hadou users are the worst match up for Star Maker. Gudou users might struggle, but the always expanding Hadou is a counter to creating cosmos IMO. Reinhard will just spread Gladsheimr throughout everything and cover it with his own rule while shaving away all of Star Maker's created rules, much in the same way they shave over other gods' rules and the default laws of nature in the given setting.

 

[BleedingPeach]

In this blog we can find a clear way to know what it can do. If this counts as a stomp in favor of Reinhard then he can beat Nyarlathotep and some Mythos characters. Ultimate Spirit was by some staff members refered as "at least 1-A". I'm not saying that Creative Mode could stomp Reinhard but the other one is a stomp in a Hajun way

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Rein is 90 degrees of transcendence above baseline
Star Maker is infinite degrees of transcendence

Plot manip is just salt on the wound

Is that really the case? A while ago, I mentioned a similar thing but nobody really seemed to insist that was the case or not, so is it still up in the air or is it really stated out there that a Taikyoku value of say 90 is two times greater than a taikyoku value of 45 or rather a Taikyoku value of 90 being infinity^90 times greater than a Taikyoku value of 1?

 

[Warren_Valion]

I believe Kamunagara brings up a fair point. Each cosmos is an undefinably greater than the last. Each creation in the infinite cosmoses that are created is not infinitely greater or transcendent of the previous creations, just an indeterminately larger and greater.

I'll explain using Taikyoku values because of their simplistic way of measuring transcendence.

A difference of one Taikyoku value is a difference of transcendence. A person with a Taikyoku value of 2 transcends a person with a value of 1. It is as simple as that.

Infinite Transcendence would be like this:

1--oo One to Infinity.

If each creation is an unknowable amount greater than the last then it would be something along the lines of this:

1.1, 1.01, 1.001, 1.0001, ..., 2.0 One to Two.

It's not that each Cosmos is transcendent of one another, it that with there being an infinite hierarchy of larger and larger cosmoses, it would equal a level of transcendence, not an infinite amount of them.

What makes it an infinite transcendence?

@Sandman31 Is each cosmos in the infinite hierarchy transcendent of the last? If not, then I don't believe that The Star Maker is as powerful as I was lead to believe.

@BleedingPeach

You are incorrect sir.

The Star Maker and Nyarlathotep are not the same at all.

The reason the Mythos is so stupidly into 1-A isn't because there is an infinite number of Outer Gods.

It's because of this:

"Regardless, I think Nyarla takes this. Nyarla is to the Great Old Ones what the Great Old Ones are to humanity, and being to a 1-A what a 1-A is to a normal person has been grounds for High 1-A before.

Essentially, if the only characters in the Cthulhu Mythos were humans, Great Old Ones, and Nyarlathotep (and Azzathoth on top), Nyarla would probably be listed as High 1-A."

This is a quote from Monarch Laciel from the Hajin vs Nyar thread.


Nyarlathotep is to the Great Old Ones what the Great Old Ones are to humanity. In other words, Nyarlathotep has infinite outerversal transcendence, and he is one of the lesser Outer Gods in an infinite hierarchy of them.

The Star Maker seemingly lacks that infinite outerversal transcendence that the Mythos has, at least to my knowledge. So he isn't equal to Nyar, he's infinite levels of infinity weaker than him.

 

[BleedingPeach]

I'm sorry, when I said that Reinhard stomps Nyarlathotep I was being sarcastic. My apologies for that. I'm not saying the Star Maker could beat Nyarla but it can give it a good fight.

Considering that the Ultimate Spirit is described as an atom of its infinite potentiality I can say that the thing is always expanding its AP by that statement. Reinhard would be able to beat the Creative Mode but the Ultimate Spirit is by far at the level of Haju. By the Type 5 of Immortality we can asume that it can survive an massive amount of times his Law and its existence intact.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm sorry, when I said that Reinhard stomps Nyarlathotep I was being sarcastic. My apologies for that. I'm not saying the Star Maker could beat Nyarla but it can give it a good fight.
Considering that the Ultimate Spirit is described as an atom of its infinite potentiality I can say that the thing is always expanding its AP by that statement. Reinhard would be able to beat the Creative Mode but the Ultimate Spirit is by far at the level of Haju. By the Type 5 of Immortality we can asume that it can survive an massive amount of times his Law and its existence intact.

I'm sorry if I seemed antagonistic then.

I look at it as it is another level of transcendence above that of The Creative Mode and not that he will constantly be transcending to infinity, but what do I know?