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Reinhard Heydrich vs The Star Maker

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I agree with warren up there and type 5 isn't that good of and immortality at this level

"Regardless, I think Nyarla takes this. Nyarla is to the Great Old Ones what the Great Old Ones are to humanity, and being to a 1-A what a 1-A is to a normal person has been grounds for High 1-A before.

About this, the same could be said for Hajun but this is not the thread for that.

Im goign to argue some points but it will take some time as im not in my home and i have homework.
 
I didn't say anything about infinite Transcendence. What I said was how exactly the novel describes it.

I'm also not the one who first said that the Star Maker could be At least 1-A, it was Azathoth and Matthew, he didn't get it because the tier itself is not properly define.
 
BUMP Now that the post is alive again I can say that this fight is won by the Ultimate Spirit. I've read a lot of Reinhard battles and I don't see how he can beat The Maker
 
BleedingPeach said:
BUMP
Now that the post is alive again I can say that this fight is won by the Ultimate Spirit. I've read a lot of Reinhard battles and I don't see how he can beat The Maker
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From my understanding, the Ultimate Spirit isn't even close to the level of transcendence that Reinhard is, and because of that, Reinhard should win this.
 
I don't understand something about 1-A fights: is powerlevel meaningful in this fights? Clearly it surpasses Reinhard by a hard level and has a better hax but Reinhard has trascendence so he is basically invulnerable The Maker do. The Maker is omniscient in its Ultimate Spirit state so it clearly has an advantage over his nigh omniscience and doesn't need to be some territory to be omnipresent. I read an amount of the novel to understand that the trascendence doesn't mean that he can beat it. Talking about the Ultimate Spirit here. The argument that he wins because he is Reinhard is not an argument but something that some guy told me about my liking for Lucifer Morningstar.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
>90 degrees of transcendence
>Being more than infinite degrees of transcendence

...What?
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My post above, which you kudos'd by the way, debunked Star Maker's infinite degrees of transcendence. It's not infinite.
 
So: when a character has trascendence that make him/her/it above other 1-As. That means that a fight with Bernkastel makes Reinhard straightly above Bern and makes Lucifer Morningstar invulnerable to Reinhard because of his law invulnerability. I'm reading the novel and it really breaks Reinhard the Ultimate Spirit. The other two? I think that Reinhard stomps Lucifer and gives a good fight to Bern but the Ultimate Spirit is something that Reinhard cannot beat.
 
BleedingPeach said:
So: when a character has trascendence that make him/her/it above other 1-As. That means that a fight with Bernkastel makes Reinhard straightly above Bern and makes Lucifer Morningstar invulnerable to Reinhard because of his law invulnerability. I'm reading the novel and it really breaks Reinhard the Ultimate Spirit. The other two? I think that Reinhard stomps Lucifer and gives a good fight to Bern but the Ultimate Spirit is something that Reinhard cannot beat.
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I know nothing of the "When They Cry Series" other than it exists and it is strong, so I can't give input.

You are right that Reinhard stomps Luci into oblivion though.

And yeah, in 1-A battles, it is all about the level of transcendence a character possess. That's what makes them boring.


If you think that The Ultimate Spirit beat Reinhard, you got to prove it.

The Infinite Hierarchy of Cosmoses that The Creative Mode made would be equivalent to one level of transcendence as it is infinite, which I mentioned in my large post above.

The Ultimate Cosmos, at most, would be another level of transcendence above the Infinite Hierarchy of Cosmoses, and the Creative Mode, at most, would be another level above the Ultimate Cosmos.

And the Ultimate Spirit is likely another level of transcendence above the Creative Mode.


So all and all, The Star Maker is at the most only handful of levels of transcendence above baseline 1-A, which is not even remotely comparable to Reinhard's 80 or 90 (depending on route) levels of transcendence above baseline 1-A.

And since transcendence is all that matters in a 1-A fight, I got to give the fight to Reinhard.

Unless of course, you can prove otherwise.
 
An explanation about Taikyoku would be really appreciated. If we are using Taikyoku as a synonym of AP then the Ultimate Spirit would be aleph-alpha (a transfinite cardinal number). I'm reading the novel so I can say that the german god cannot defeat The Maker. I didn't finished yet but by the respect thead page made by @Sandman31 is pretty explanatory (damn, it spoiled me a lot T_T)
 
Warren Valion said:
I'll explain using Taikyoku values because of their simplistic way of measuring transcendence.

A difference of one Taikyoku value is a difference of transcendence. A person with a Taikyoku value of 2 transcends a person with a value of 1. It is as simple as that.
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I already explained it ^.

I'm like a quote or something about The Ultimate Spirit's AP being like a aleph-alpha, as you say it is.


All his page says is that it is: "incomparably greater than the creative mode Star Maker with it being nothing but 'an atom of its infinite potentiallity'".

That make it seem like it is saying it is infinitly stronger than the Creative Mode. Another level of transcendence.

That doesn't make him infinitly transcendent of baseline 1-A though.
 
But it make it trascendant by that standards. I didn't finish the novel yet (the commentary about the spoilers and the explanation in its profile) but that makes it very above Reinhard, Ren, Mercurius or Marie (not gonna name Hajun because it's a topic for another thread). Did you read the novel? I would love finish it and get a translated version of Dies Irae and Kajiri Kamui Kagura (not gonna say the three "k" because it is very uncomfortable).
 
BleedingPeach said:
But it make it trascendant by that standards. I didn't finish the novel yet (the commentary about the spoilers and the explanation in its profile) but that makes it very above Reinhard, Ren, Mercurius or Marie (not gonna name Hajun because it's a topic for another thread). Did you read the novel? I would love finish it and get a translated version of Dies Irae and Kajiri Kamui Kagura (not gonna say the three "k" because it is very uncomfortable).
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Saying that the Ultimate Spirit is transcendent of whatever standards you are talking about is meaningless without a quote saying he is.

I even asked Sandman31 about where the "infinite transcendence", that people like you and Zach proclaim that Star Maker has, comes from. He responded with this:

"I didn't say anything about infinite Transcendence. What I said was how exactly the novel describes it.

I'm also not the one who first said that the Star Maker could be At least 1-A, it was Azathoth and Matthew, he didn't get it because the tier itself is not properly defined."


So I request proof that Star Maker is infinitely transcendent of baseline 1-A like you state he is, and would ergo defeat/stomp Reinhard.


>"Did you read the novel?"

Do you mean the Star Maker Novel or the Shinza Bansho visual novels?

I have not as of yet read Star Maker, that's why I am asking for the quote.

For the Shinza Bansho series, I have read Dies Irae ~ Amantes Amentes ~, but I have not read Kajiri Kamui Kagura, simply because there is no English translation of the story and I don't know Japanese. I do know topics and plot points from the game that are relevant to this current discussion by conversing with more knowledgeable members of the franchise like ALRF.


So in conclusion,

You claim that The Ultimate Spirit has infinite transcendence over baseline 1-A structures and beings, and because of that would stomp Reinhard with his 80 or 90 levels.

And because of that bold statement, I ask from you that you reveal this quote that mentions this infinity transcendence level of 1-A AP because the Ultimate Spirit's AP description only makes him sound a handful of levels of transcendence above baseline 1-A. Which would mean he gets stomped by Reinhard and other Hadou Gods.

You have yet to provide such a quote at this time.
 
Yes

Reinhard = 90 degrees of transcendence above 1-As

Star Maker = Created an infinite hierarchy of transcendence with 1-A realms being at the bottom
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Yes
Reinhard = 90 degrees of transcendence above 1-As

Star Maker = Created an infinite hierarchy of transcendence with 1-A realms being at the bottom
Click to expand...
He created an infinite hierarchy of cosmoses that are indeterminable bigger than the last, that is comparable to one level of transcendence, not infinite. As the smallest cosmos, a 1-A cosmos would be infinity smaller than the greatest cosmoses in the hierarchy, not infinite degrees of infinity.


Have you not read anything I have written, the long ass posts that I have written above explain this.
 
He created an infinite hierarchy of cosmoses that are indeterminable bigger than the last, that is comparable to one level of transcendence, not infinite. As the smallest cosmos, a 1-A cosmos would be infinity smaller than the greatest cosmoses in the hierarchy, not infinite degrees of infinity.


Have you not read anything I have written, the long ass posts that I have written above explain this.

Oh i see. @zachary version of creating an infinity hierarchy of cosmos is equal to infinite transcendences.

Your version is the creation infinity hierarchy of cosmos is equal one transcendence.

Which one is correct tho?
 
Eganergo said:
Oh i see. @zachary version of creating an infinity hierarchy of cosmos is equal to infinite transcendences.

Your version is the creation infinity hierarchy of cosmos is equal one transcendence.

Which one is correct tho?
Click to expand...
Yes. You are correct in both our views of understanding The Star Maker's Power.


I (obviously) believe my point of view to be accurate. I'll re-post what I said in a previous post as evidence of my point:

"I even asked Sandman31 about where the 'infinite transcendence', that people like you and Zach proclaim that Star Maker has, comes from. He responded with this:

'I didn't say anything about infinite Transcendence. What I said was how exactly the novel describes it.

I'm also not the one who first said that the Star Maker could be At least 1-A, it was Azathoth and Matthew, he didn't get it because the tier itself is not properly defined.'"


Sandman31 is the person who brought this character to the wiki and thus would have the greatest understanding of his power, and therefore I value his input.

If the Infinite Hierarchy of Cosmoses stated that each cosmos was considered transcendent of the previous and that they were infinite cosmoses, then I would concede to Zachary's infinite transcendence point of view, but it doesn't.

As seen from his page the Creative Mode: "created the hierarchy of creations which includes the cosmoses mentioned above, each cosmos in this hierarchy are greater and more complex than the last."

In other words, each cosmos in the infinite number of them are greater than the last by an indeterminable amount, but not transcendent of the last. Thus I agree with my point of view.
 
This entire debate and in the end, it just decide who stomps who...

Im btw with Warren here. A Cosmos being infinitly greater then the last one dosnt equate full trancendence to the lower one. I vaguely remember that even the infinite power of a god is absolutly meaningless towards a god of higher taikyoku, trandending the lower god absolutly.
 
First Witch said:
This entire debate and in the end, it just decide who stomps who...

Im btw with Warren here. A Cosmos being infinitly greater then the last one dosnt equate full trancendence to the lower one. I vaguely remember that even the infinite power of a god is absolutly meaningless towards a god of higher taikyoku, trandending the lower god absolutly.
Click to expand...
a complete and utter transcendance really making the other one stupidly insignifiant
 
If the Umineko characters don't have Transcende as a power in their profiles does that mean that the german and the other can clean the floor with the high tiers of the franchise?

On the other hand why the Lovecraft characters are so powerful? Basically none of them has Transcendence and yet they are utterly more powerful than the Masadaverse or Umineko (baring Featherine in a case -look to Yog-Sothoth) ones.

I'm reading the novel (page 47 and I didn't finished it because of my surgery) so yeah @Sandman31 will be needed here.
 
BleedingPeach said:
If the Umineko characters don't have Transcende as a power in their profiles does that mean that the german and the other can clean the floor with the high tiers of the franchise?
On the other hand why the Lovecraft characters are so powerful? Basically none of them has Transcendence and yet they are utterly more powerful than the Masadaverse or Umineko (baring Featherine in a case -look to Yog-Sothoth) ones.

I'm reading the novel (page 47 and I didn't finished it because of my surgery) so yeah @Sandman31 will be needed here.
Click to expand...
Umineko profiles are under revisions I believe. So there's that.


And are you serious? I already told you why Lovecraft has this:

"The reason the Mythos is so stupidly into 1-A isn't because there is an infinite number of Outer Gods.

It's because of this:

'Regardless, I think Nyarla takes this. Nyarla is to the Great Old Ones what the Great Old Ones are to humanity, and being to a 1-A what a 1-A is to a normal person has been grounds for High 1-A before.

Essentially, if the only characters in the Cthulhu Mythos were humans, Great Old Ones, and Nyarlathotep (and Azzathoth on top), Nyarla would probably be listed as High 1-A.'

This is a quote from Monarch Laciel from the Hajin vs Nyar thread.


Nyarlathotep is to the Great Old Ones what the Great Old Ones are to humanity. In other words, Nyarlathotep has infinite outerversal transcendence, and he is one of the lesser Outer Gods in an infinite hierarchy of them."
 
What? "Trancendence" is not a power, its a status you archieve by being beyond everything sans beings higher then you. And what do you mean "Umineko dosnt trancence anything"?? The ENTIRE COSMOLOGY builds around trancending others by climbing up the infinite domain of witches.

Same goes for the Mythos. So i have no idea what youre talking about. Try to read stuff about both verses before making such claims please.
 
just pointing out that the difference of 1 taikyoku is enough to transcend the lower one by an infinite amount, no matter how complex or strong they are.


just explaining, and I'm not going to vote here
 
SchroKatze said:
just pointing out that the difference of 1 taikyoku is enough to transcend the lower one by an infinite amount, no matter how complex or strong they are.


just explaining, and I'm not going to vote here
Click to expand...
Nah brah, More taikyoku just means their laws have more authority, all hadou gods inhabit the same level of reality
 
ShrektheHandsomeOgre said:
Nah brah, More taikyoku just means their laws have more authority, all hadou gods inhabit the same level of reality
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Taikyoku values means total trascendece to everything below it, thats the whole point of having that system.

  • 1 Taikyoku is enough to change all of reality on a 1-A lvl.
In another thread ALRF explained this better but I can't find said thread so RIP.

IMO the Mythos aren't really as strong as some medias make it look (except for Yog, Azzy and maybe Shub) but I really like the Mythos so I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

On this match:

I'm really with Warren on this one. The creation of multiples cosmoses with the newer one being more complex doesn't mean much when no specific level is described, this may sound like i'm downplaying but I merely recognize the description of "Created the hierarchy of creations which includes the cosmoses mentioned above, each cosmos in this hierarchy are greater and more complex than the last. The Star Maker created the Ultimate Cosmos, the most subtle and perfect cosmos that exists at the top of the hierarchy of creations. The Ultimate Cosmos has the essence of every cosmos and much more." as a High 1-B feat with "All other previous cosmoses are irrelevant in comparison to the Ultimate Cosmos" being the true 1-A level feat. This oe is just my personal opinion and it could be wrong but hey, this is fiction and nothing makes sence.'┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»

This one "Created cosmoses that precede the concept of dimensions. Created infinite cosmoses with infinite diversity, including dimensionless "cosmoses" where its creatures were each existing in independence from each other. Only acting in stimulation of the Star Maker, these creatures had their own reality conceived by the figments of its imagination. Created non-spatial cosmoses, cosmoses where time doesn't exist and cosmoses with no physical nature." is what gives him truly the 1-A feat.

The "Created infinite cosmoses with infinite diversity, including dimensionless "cosmoses" where its creatures were each existing in independence from each other. Only acting in stimulation of the Star Maker, these creatures had their own reality conceived by the figments of its imagination." can be linked to something like the Throne, given that both ca contai and manage diferent and more complex beings under the rule of another being. In this case The Star Maker.

In other words, I consider Reinhard stronger than the creative mode.

Going to the one I really am interested: The Ultimate Spirit

To me the Ultimate Spirit is described as a trascendental being above everything created in his previous form, he is stated to be "nothing but an atom of its infinite potentiallity" I dont really know how to classify this form but in Masada context it would mean a jump in Taikyoku values (like when Rein goes from 80 to 90 just with a little change in the story a.k.a Apoptosis). Personally I would say that he is pretty strong but just trascending his own creation isn't enough to come close to the levels displayed in Masada's works.

TL;DR: Reinhard wins maybe easily, maybe just barely making out due to 'lolapoptosis', take it as you will.
 
As i already said, we should stop using words like trascendence because it isn´t. Yes, you are right, more taikyoku means that the strongest god law will reign supreme and the weaker god law become irrelevant, but it doesn´t mean the strongest god trascends completely the weakest god in terms of the core of their being, they are still inhabiting the same reality.
 
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