Regarding non-canonical elements in SF and E. Honda's feat

[PuasLuisZX]

There some calcs that might be done, and while Honda's feat might be a outlier in AP, speed wise is actually very pausable due similar speed tiers, some of the SFV cast should be able to scale to Ken due story mode battles.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You cant scale some of them to Ken when is more or less in Ryu league

 

[PuasLuisZX]

Except that the fact Ken lost against Laura in the story mode, which again makes if the discussion some of the street fighter roster should be able to scale to Ken.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

If you wanna go by plot fights, then Dhalsim is stronger then Ryu, as he fought Necalli to a standstill and took a punch from Evil Ryu, so no

 

[Lavcore]

then why is that feat featured on the profile then?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Whoever put it on the profile probably didnt thought about the fact its contradicting the lore, so it needs removed and if anything Dhalsim probably goes down in tier

 

[BrainSWord74]

Except that the fact Ken lost against Laura in the story mode, which again makes if the discussion some of the street fighter roster should be able to scale to Ken.

Ken didn't take the fight seriously obviously, and he didn't lose either since he immediately got up unscathed pretty much.

 

[BrainSWord74]

If you wanna go by plot fights, then Dhalsim is stronger then Ryu, as he fought Necalli to a standstill and took a punch from Evil Ryu, so no

Ryu is stronger than Dhalsim, it's just that he wasn't focused due to the SnH stuff going on inside him. After finishing his special (spiritual) training, he owned Necalli pretty easily.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

Birdie is not *that* weak, he fought Ryu on the same circumstances as even Gen. (Who was holding back a lot agaimst SF1 Ryu)

 

[BrainSWord74]

Gen didn't participate in the SFI tournament since there was no competition for him, he didn't fight Ryu, and Birdie was most likely no match for him.

Birdie lost to Ibuki, Rashid and Karin, he's definitely a low-tier.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

Ibuki, Karin fought Amped Dolls (who kept up with Ken) and Rashid fought Fang who is not a low tier by any means.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

@BoomerKuwanger1 stop reaching with the claim of them being anywhere near compareble to Ken, that by default would make them compareble to Ryu and the power scale gets a mess

@BrainSword74 i know that, i just went by his logic with plot which shows how you canr use all fights to justify a character power

 

[BrainSWord74]

FANG isn't a low-tier, but he's close to being one. His resume wasn't that great. An unfocused Ryu stomped Rashid, so Birdie doesn't compare to him and Ken.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

That would make their SFV selves comparable to second earliest Ryu possible (SFA3).

So, no. They are not comparable by any means to SFV/current Ryu, but should at least be comparable to the Ryu we see in SFA3.

Remember.

Ryu beat Bison thanks to a surge of satsuni no hadou, not by "himself" in SFA3. It is consistent that nobody in Karin's team could possibly beat SFV Bison on their own, even without the amp.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Ken is always comparable to Ryu more or less, they are rivals from very early in the series, scaling to Ken is not to be considered

And you cant make the assumption of them being on the level of alpha 3 Ryu either, as far as im aware there is no indication for that huge of a power increase between that Ryu and current one to say they can be equal to that

 

[Lavcore]

i feel like we're getting off track to reiterate my point which some people have ignored, ryu and dhalsim go against the rules so either the canon page is changed or ryu and dhalsim are altered to only feature canon info we can't have both.

 

[Andytrenom]

""With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages. Non-canon material doesn't count - it never happened."

This sentence kinda seems out of context. The Cano page is clearly about different source materials relating to a franchise, not things that exist within the same game/book/series, it's not really a good idea to cite the statement as evidence of us not accepting information from alternate endings, even if it does technically relate to non-canonicity

And yeah, if the endings are just what ifs in the context of the overall story, representing what could happen but didn't, then there really isn't a problem in using them.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Lavcore those that talked here already said Ryu ending is fine and ok to use

Dhalsim from what i see should need to be out as it showw him beating Bison and saving the day, unless anywhere it says he did it without beating him

 

[Lavcore]

the statement i quoted is the first sentence of the page and the secondary canon and tertiary canon was not mentioned at all in the first sentence, the canon page is not called "canon outside of the series" it's just called canon and nothing else there's nothing implying we can't use that rule of not using non-canonical info for profiles because the rest of the page mostly refers to outside canon it does not state the rule does not apply to non-canon info within the series in question.

that just leads back to the same problem i mentioned earlier i'm going to repeat this again it does not matter whether or not it's contradictory or not it goes against the rules it's either we change the canon page or ryu and dhalsim get altered, it does not matter whether or not it's contradictory or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Arcade endings should be treated as secondary canon in a game with no cinematic story mode, not non-canon. It's a complete misuse of the term and applies "anime filler" logic to something that isn't anime. Hell, some game companies even claim different character endings happen in different timelines.

Simply put, the ending is useable if it isn't contradicted by lore/story or inconsistent towards the character's other feats in other cases. It's not a black-and-white scenario, and canonicity is not the right word here.

I'm ashamed that our fighting game standards still suck...

I think that this makes sense.

Fighting game endings follow the rules of our Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles and even our crossover and guidebook guidelines (it's weird). The base canon page is more a (currently improper) definition of what canon is. I need to rewrite it, to be honest.

And I am also fine with if you wish to improve on the Cano page.

 

[Lavcore]

@ant

well if we're going to change the canon page then a separate CRT should probably be made detailing the changes that will be made so staff can evaluate it.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

SFA3 canon -> Akuma > Ryu using SnH > Bison > Ryu >=Ken > Sakura = Karin > Zangief, possibly the rest too.

 

[Antvasima]

@Lavcore

That is probably best, yes.

 

[Lavcore]

bump.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[Lavcore]

i'll message sera to comment here again to give input.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[SuperAPM]

From what I can see, the problem with the city nuking feat is that it's not really scalable to Ryu's usual AP. Since its Ryu's total sum energy that's being stolen, his regular attacks obviously wouldn't have the same kind of potency, otherwise he'd drain himself completely dry after each Hadoken. At the very least it's obvious Bison wouldn't scale to it, otherwise he'd just nuke the city himself without bothering with Ryu. But Bison makes it clear that he's now acquired the ultimate destructive power and is now unstoppable because of it, such a thing wouldn't be possible if he scaled directly to it.

 

[Lavcore]

@ant

sera said she doesn't want debate anymore on this topic so should i contact other staff?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is too bad. I would appreciate if she improves the Cano page.

You can ask a few other administrators and discussion moderators if you wish, yes.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

@SuperAPM

That scales to his durability, since his body can withstand that much energy he has in his body, if he couldnt he would be dead or fatally injured, those that can hurt him by with their blows should have AP greater then his durability, like Ken, and from there Ryu scales to him hlsince they are about even with each other

 

[Lavcore]

@ant

i contacted pegasus.

 

[SuperAPM]

No it wouldn't? Not all energy is destructive, what the energy looks like while its dormant within his body is completely different to what it looks like once its converted into force, especially when said energy is converted by a machine with the specific purpose of laying mass destruction.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Have no knowledge on SF but what Sera said makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

@Lavcore

You should first focus on asking the staff members listed in the Street Fighter verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List.

If that does not work out, you can try with a few of the following members:

Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Dark649, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, Andytrenom, AKM sama, Wokista, Ultima Reality, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, Crimson Azoth, Sir Ovens, Warren Valio, The Calaca, ByAsura, GyroNutz

 

[BlackDarkness679]

No it wouldn't? Not all energy is destructive, what the energy looks like while its dormant within his body is completely different to what it looks like once its converted into force, especially when said energy is converted by a machine with the specific purpose of laying mass destruction.

Yes it does, nothing implies the satellite changes its properties or anything, its powered by Ryu energy, also thats 101 physics, msny fictional verses have such instances of absorbing or powering sonerhing with energy, if their body can handle that much, their durability have to be on that level

 

[Lavcore]

@ant

unfortunately most of the knowledgeable members listed on the page are inactive and matthew has already commented here, i contacted asura for input though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[SuperAPM]

What? That example literally makes no sense, I'd struggle to find any verse that treats energy absorbtion as equivalent to durability. Feedback's energy absorbtion is potent enough to absorb the energy of the big bang, and its physically only 7-A or whatever.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Makes no sense to you maybe cuz you are too dense to understand maybe, AP=Durability if its energy like Ki, you cant have your body be weaker then the blasts you output from the body