Regarding non-canonical elements in SF and E. Honda's feat

[Lavcore]

Regarding non-canonical elements and how we should handle them:

as of right now i know of two profiles that use non-canonical endings for tier justification these two profiles are Ryu and Dhalsim now these two profiles use non-canonical endings when they shouldn't according to the Cano page: "With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages. Non-canon material doesn't count - it never happened." both ryu and dhalsim break the rule of only using canon elements for profiles my proposal is that we remove any non-canonical elements referenced on their profiles and add new justification for their tier.

E. Honda destroys a meteorite:

in a SFV arcade ending both e. honda and hakan team up to destroy a meteor heading for a city hakan oils himself up and spins and throws e. honda at extremely high speeds now the question is: is the feat valid? or does it fall under it being an Outlier? if it is valid then this would affect several characters across the verse and upgrade them it would also be nice to recalc the feat to avoid error, if not then it should be noted on his profile that the feat is an outlier to avoid confusion.

E. Honda's feat: here

Ryu and Dhalsim's non-canon endings: here and here


Let the discussion begin!

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

The non-cannon elements...Im uncomfortable with, honestly I feel like we should contact some staff on the matter, personally I can't condone using the noncannon endings to support tierings at the moment. Saying that if there is a convincing enough argument I could be swayed.

I feel the E. Honda feat is likely an outlier (Though I wouldn't mind a reacalc of it as well), e. honda is never depicted as an overly strong character in verse and as far as I know he has no other supporting feats to suggest he's as powerful as this ending depicts him.

 

[Lavcore]

well according to the outlier page: "However, all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable." so we should at least try to justify his feat like for example that was e. honda's best and he got crippled afterwards also hakan threw him at high speeds stuff like that.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Hmm, While true the problem it seems way to high it pushes him to mountain level according to this calc, the next best feat in the verse is city level, and it comes from a character who's not meant to be a top tier. Even more the way the feat is portrayed seems to be geared more towards humor then anything else...

 

[Lavcore]

hmmm but has e. honda ever fought a top tier like m. bison or akuma? he usually just stays out of evil organization takedown plots and just minds his buisness.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

He hasn't afaik but I feel thats part of the problem, he's not meant to be some unstoppable force in verse or a central figure. The feat we're trying to scale him to is him oiling up and being thrown by another person at a metorite, the whole thing seems to be played for humor and outside this he has no feats that suggest he's equal to or greater then the top tiers of the verse.

 

[Lavcore]

well most SF characters don't have a lot of feats and are usually backscaled from characters who do so this would at most upgrade the mid and god tiers of the verse and anyone who scales to e. honda.

and most of my points regarding e. honda were in the last thread like how if it doesn't cause any contradictions then it shouldn't be an outlier.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah but its massivly above every other feat we do have for the high/god teirs and its from a rather silly ending card and from a character that isn't depicted as a top tier, Im not comfotrable moving the top teirs up based off this feat.

Lets wait a bit to get others opinions, have you asked any staff to comment here?

 

[Lavcore]

not yet but i will now.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

So the feat is as i said an outlier, plus E Honda was never a powerful character or relevant in the verse, not to mention the calc is also wrong, it shouldnt be considered

If Ryu feat with the satellite is taken out then thats goodbye City level as well

 

[Lavcore]

i contacted matt for input.

@darkness

well as i said previously we should try to make sense of the feat and we should preferably get more input on this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

E.Honda destroying a meteor is undoubtedly an outlier. Dude got beat up by Sakura.

 

[Lavcore]

when did that happen?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Lavcore...Akuma feat is large town...even if he did it casually, having a character which isnt even a mid tier do a feat thats mountain level(from a wrong calc as pinted last time) is simply screaming outlier

 

[Lavcore]

well if everyone says it's an outlier then i guess it is but we should at least have a note on his profile stating it's an outlier to avoid confusion.

@matt

what are your thoughts on the non-canonical elements featured on profiles?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

when did that happen?

In one of the SF IV Anime Shorts.

And I'm fine with Non-Canon Events as long as they're not extraordinarily out of place. Like an ending where Dan beats the Main Villain is obviously not right, but something like M. Bison defeating Ryu and then using his body and chi as a power source for a city-nuking laser in Alpha 3's Bad Ending is completely fine. As is the speed of said laser being determined by multiple ending scenes.

 

[Lavcore]

link?

but that's non-canon and as mentioned in the canon page only canon events should be used for profiles with few exceptions so a non-canon ending should not be used as justification for a tier rating as it goes against the canon page and we don't know in canon how powerful bison would be with ryu's body only that it would make him unstoppable and dhalsim beating bison and then destroying the psycho drive is unrealistic and obviously not canon considering no one got to bison before dhalsim in that ending.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My dude.

We accept Non-Canon Endings and Deviations when they are clearly "What Ifs" that display events that could reasonably happen.

Ryu losing to Bison and being turned into a weapon like Bison intended is a likely possibility. Ryu and Ken forming a Glam Rock band with Poison isn't.

Besides there are plenty of endings that are mutually canon.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Wait do we? I don't think I've seen non canon material being used to justify a character's stats

 

[Lavcore]

of course ryu being turned into a weapon was a likely possibility it's that we don't know how strong bison would get,we get no specifics on how powerful he would be if he won the non-cano ending is all we have to go off of and it never happened it's not even semi-canon like hugo's ending which has non-canon elements(hugo beating seth) and canon elements(hugo joining up with poison) it's entirely non-canon.

 

[KarmodF]

As Matthew said, we do, like in Mortal Kombat, most of the fatalities arent even canon, yet we accept calcs. from them, since the characters are just showing off the potencial of their powers without holding back, i.e. Cetrio.

 

[Lavcore]

that shouldn't be accepted either but we're not talking about that right now we're talking about SF and it's non-canonical endings.

 

[KarmodF]

It was just an example of non-canon material we use.

 

[Lavcore]

the point is that stuff like that goes directly against our own canon page and i see no reason why SF non-canonical elements should be one of those few exceptions.

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Karmod that's a totally different scenario

We have evidence several of the fatalitites are canon

Sub Zero canonically tears out Scorpion's spine

Scorpion appears to do the same

D'vorah canonically uses her second fatality to kill Baraka

And I'm sure there's something else

And before anyone brings up the MK endings let me just say the past events in those endings are canon (Smoke's backstory, Johnny Cage's roots, Kung Lao being a reincarnated Great Kung Lao etc)

 

[Hellbeast1]

It's a totally different ballgame then just saying "Oh well this COULD happen"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Uh, it' not could. Do you think Ryu would be magically weaker or stronger in an ending? Seriously? That's a ridiculous claim.

 

[Lavcore]

any character can be magically weaker or stronger in an ending(seth in multiple endings,rolento beating seth,hugo beating seth,dan beating bison and dhalsim beating bison).

 

[Hellbeast1]

What's ridiculous is using an arcade ending without any other verification for valid feats.

 

[Hellbeast1]

If a later game mentioned Bison using Ryu's power then yeah that's fine but if not I doubt we can properly extrapolate his power from that.

 

[Lavcore]

no game after A3 mentioned bison using ryu's power only that bison beat ryu and ryu(with the power of friendship lol) beat bison, he never had the opportunity to use his power and his plan failed.

 

[DMUA]

As I once was told by someone

Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it couldn't happen

So a what if timeline like Bison tying up Ryu and using him to nuke a city shouldn't be invalid per say as long as it's consistent

And considering that his entire plan is to fulfill that what if ending, I don't see why Ryu would be immensely weaker in the timeline where he actually succeeds

 

[Lavcore]

the thing is that we don't know how powerful ryu would be as i've stated previously it's never given any specifics in canon on how powerful bison would be with his body.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Again though it's shifty extrapolate from an alternate ending that (to my knowledge) doesn't have anything saying it canonically happened other then Bison wanted to take his body.

It's like putting Kronika at 2-B because Shao with her power merged billions of timelines (Which is in line arguably with what the Hourglass can do)

 

[Lavcore]

still waiting for the link to the scene where sakura beat e. honda

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"It's like putting Kronika at 2-B because Shao with her power merged billions of timelines (Which is in line arguably with what the Hourglass can do)"

I wouldn't object to the Hourgless being 2-B if it wasn't an outlier. It has nothing to do with it being canon or not. Who the hell cares. Fighting Game Endings also often simply show the continuation of a character's story having nothing to do with defeating the Final Boss.

 

[Lavcore]

except that wasn't the case with A3 with most if not all of the endings having something to do with bison, refer to my earlier point regarding the canon page and how we're being hypocritical against our own rule regarding canon with our current SF profiles.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'd also note some of III got retconned by V allegedly (I admit I'm not too knowledgeable on Street Fighter)

@Matt regardless of what it shows if it's not backed up by lore it shouldn't be applicable

 

[Lavcore]

still waiting for the link to the scene where sakura beat e. honda

^

i would also appreciate if someone could recalc e honda's feat since people have repeatedly said that the calc was wrong.

 

[Genericstickman]

wait would Gill's feat in his ending be allowed?