Street Fighter: AP / Dura and Speed upgrades

[Jason_Courne]

The calcs

• Ryu tanks an explosion
• Various Final Fight speed feats

Note: It's already been discussed that Ryu does not scale to the island's destruction. The explosion Ryu tanked did not cause the destruction of the island, the island's destruction was caused directly by Akuma, correlation =/= causation.

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AP / Dura scaling

In Street Fighter Alpha 2, Ryu survives a massive explosion caused by Akuma, he takes no damage from it and the feat is worth 1.171 tons of tnt (barely Building level+)

The characters that would scale directly to this value are the following:

• Ken Masters, he is a consistent rival for Ryu
• Sagat, he is a consistent rival for Ryu
• Alex, he defeated a Shadaloo recreation of SFA Ryu

Notable characters that would downscale the rating are the following:

• E. Honda, he has spared with Ryu on at least two occasions
• C. Viper, she was acknowledged as powerful by Ryu
• Sakura, she briefly fought with Ryu in SFV and impressed him; she is portrayed as somewhat on par with him

Everyone else in the verse scales to those who downscale, or scale to those who scale to those who downscale (e.g. Balrog ~>~ Chun-Li ~=~ Karin = Sakura)

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Low tier rating proposal
Obviously the characters that scale directly to Ryu would get the full 1.171 tons of tnt rating, whereas I want to propose three different possible tiers for the characters that downscale

1. Since the feat is on the verge of Building level+, characters that downscale only get to baseline Building level+ (1.125 tons of tnt)
2. Since the feat is on the verge of Building level+, characters that downscale only get to baseline Building level (.25 tons of tnt)
3. Since the current low-mid tier characters scale to .1 tons of tnt, they should upscale into baseline Small Building level+ (.1275 tons of tnt)

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Speed upgrade
In the Final Fight games, characters can briefly outrun bullets at 63 m/s (Subsonic travel speed), they can punch faster than bullets at Mach 1.04 (Transonic combat speed), they can hit faster than crossbow bolts at Mach 1.9 (Supersonic combat speed), and, most impressively, Rolento can move faster than his own explosions at Mach 3.82 (Supersonic+ travel speed and combat speed)

Rolento gets an overall Supersonic+ rating speed due to not only running faster than explosions, but also being able to attack while running (meaning he has similar combat / reaction speed to his travel speed)

The main rating for the FF cast would be, "Subsonic travel speed (Can outrun bullets to a limited degree), with Supersonic+ combat and reaction speed (Can fight against Rolento, can punch faster than bullets, can hit faster than crossbow bolts)"

Notable characters that would directly scale to the Final Fight cast are the following:

• Zangief, he is the rival to Haggar
• E. Honda, he has fought Mad Gear gang members like Sodom, who should be comparable to Rolento
• Gunloc, he can wrestle against characters like prime Haggar
• Biff Slamkovich, he can wrestle with a prime Haggar
• Birdie, as a former CWA wrestler and former rival / partner of Titanic Tim, he should scale to Haggar

Everyone else in the verse scales to those characters, or scales to a character that scales to those characters

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Summary

1. Ryu, Ken, Sagat, and Alex all go from 9-A to 8-C+
2. All 9-As are upgraded to one of the three tiers mentioned above (baseline 8-C+, baseline 8-C, baseline 9-A+)
3. All "Subsonic+" characters are upgraded to "Subsonic travel speed with Supersonic+ combat / reaction speed" (with the Transonic and Supersonic feats being used as support)
4. Rolento gets overall Supersonic+ speed

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, SamanPatou, Rau, Lonkitt
Disagree:

 

[Dalesean027]

Ayo!? Im ******* here for it

Gotta read through this a bit later
@SamanPatou

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[SamanPatou]

I had already talked about that explosion in another thread, which I can't find.
What makes me skeptical is that the explosion supposedly engulfs the entire cave Ryu and Akuma are in, and we see only a shot of the outskirts and the part that comes out, reason why the explosion could very well be much bigger.
We also don't see where Ryu is compared to the explosion honestly, because the epicenther isn't necessarily the point where Akuma punched tbh.
The entire feat happens off screen, with any precise detail, and the lack of feats on similar level makes me even more wary on making this a clear-cut AP level.

I also disagree with the scaling, but that's a secondary topic.

I agree with the speed upgrades and calcs, though I'm not fully convinced on Rolento moving in tandem with the explosion, since it's "gameplay time" and not "cinematic time".
Bullets and bolts are fine, as I said in the blog, the game is meant to let you dodge and touch them, so it should be fine.

 

[Jason_Courne]

What makes me skeptical is that the explosion supposedly engulfs the entire cave Ryu and Akuma are in, and we see only a shot of the outskirts and the part that comes out, reason why the explosion could very well be much bigger.

That would pretty much just make it a low end

We also don't see where Ryu is compared to the explosion honestly, because the epicenther isn't necessarily the point where Akuma punched tbh.

Well the explosion is caused by Akuma punching the ground so it would have to be the epicenter

and the lack of feats on similar level makes me even more wary on making this a clear-cut AP level

A jump from extremely high end Small Building level to Building level+ isn't really that absurd though

 

[Jason_Courne]

Looks good to me.

What are your thoughts on the low tier scaling? Which end do you think is best?

 

[Rau]

I Agree

 

[Armorchompy]

Ryu's only 68 kg? WTF

Anyways

I had already talked about that explosion in another thread, which I can't find.
What makes me skeptical is that the explosion supposedly engulfs the entire cave Ryu and Akuma are in, and we see only a shot of the outskirts and the part that comes out, reason why the explosion could very well be much bigger.

This is true, but it would only make the result higher, not lower. I do understand the concern that it may be an outlier though, so I won't speak on that. (The result is probably higher anyways given that it seems to destroy a lot of rock, so it may be a very valid concern)

Won't comment on the scaling, not something I know.

We also don't see where Ryu is compared to the explosion honestly, because the epicenter isn't necessarily the point where Akuma punched tbh.

I get what you mean but generally I'd assume it to be where the punch started, given that that's where the energy's coming from.

I agree with the speed upgrades and calcs, though I'm not fully convinced on Rolento moving in tandem with the explosion, since it's "gameplay time" and not "cinematic time".
Bullets and bolts are fine, as I said in the blog, the game is meant to let you dodge and touch them, so it should be fine.

I think the calcs are fine (be weird if i didn't given that I made the SoR calcs it uses as reference). Explosion speed is normally kinda weird to use because it drastically slows down after the very first cm, but that calculator actually fixes that, I might definitely use it myself in the future. Using Rolento himself is kinda weird given that he doesn't interact with the grenades proper, but I guess you could compare it to any character's attack and it'd be the exact same logic, so I think it's fine IMO.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree

 

[SamanPatou]

I discovered something interesting that turns the table of the whole matter.
To be extremely sure, I went checking the All About Street Fighter ZERO 2 Japanese Guide (which you can read here).
I went looking for the pages detailing Goutentou Island (Akuma's stage) and Akuma's ending; while the latter didn't provide anything (it's a copy-pasta of the in-game text), the other reveals that Goutentou is a volcanic active island.

This means that what we see isn't properly an explosion, but rather a volcanic eruption.
I honestly don't know how to tackle the thing now, but that's it.

I think the calcs are fine (be weird if i didn't given that I made the SoR calcs it uses as reference). Explosion speed is normally kinda weird to use because it drastically slows down after the very first cm, but that calculator actually fixes that, I might definitely use it myself in the future. Using Rolento himself is kinda weird given that he doesn't interact with the grenades proper, but I guess you could compare it to any character's attack and it'd be the exact same logic, so I think it's fine IMO.

The I'm fine

 

[Armorchompy]

I discovered something interesting that turns the table of the whole matter.
To be extremely sure, I went checking the All About Street Fighter ZERO 2 Japanese Guide (which you can read here).
I went looking for the pages detailing Goutentou Island (Akuma's stage) and Akuma's ending; while the latter didn't provide anything (it's a copy-pasta of the in-game text), the other reveals that Goutentou is a volcanic active island.

This means that what we see isn't properly an explosion, but rather a volcanic eruption.
I honestly don't know how to tackle the thing now, but that's it.

That does make the calculation invalid, yes. Explosion formula doesn't work on eruptions.

 

[Jason_Courne]

This means that what we see isn't properly an explosion, but rather a volcanic eruption.
I honestly don't know how to tackle the thing now, but that's it.

I don't think it would qualify as a volcanic eruption though, those look vastly different from what happens in the game

 

[SamanPatou]

It might not look exactly like one, but it's clearly meant to be a fireball-like thing.
This notion is in the guide of the very same game where the feat happens, it can't be a coincidence.

 

[Jason_Courne]

This notion is in the guide of the very same game where the feat happens, it can't be a coincidence.

Alright for now I guess we'll just disregard the feat until a better alternative is found

 

[Lonkitt]

It’s been awhile since I’ve seen some SF activity, felt a bit sad when it halted

I’m a bit late to this thread and noticed the OP has been altered. Can I get an update on this state of the proposal?

 

[SamanPatou]

We're talking only about speed, as what was believed being an explosion turned out being a weird-looking volcanic eruption, making the calc invalid and changing the feat entirely.

 

[Lonkitt]

So AP stuff has mostly been settled?

 

[Jason_Courne]

So AP stuff has mostly been settled?

Yes it has been rejected until a better method can be found

 

[Lonkitt]

Understood then

 

[SamanPatou]

Speed's fine to me btw.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, I think speed looks good

 

[Jason_Courne]

Since it's now been officially 48 hours since the threads creation, can this be applied?

 

[Lonkitt]

Indeed they can

 

[Jason_Courne]

Indeed they can

Alright I'll start applying the upgrades

 

[Jason_Courne]

Alright I've edited all of the profiles and added the calculations to the main page, so this thread can be closed I guess (I have severely underestimated how many profiles the verse has)