Regarding non-canonical elements in SF and E. Honda's feat

[Lavcore]

no.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You realize that excluding alpha 3 would downgrade the verse even more then, cuz from the psycho drive nuking a city and a laser beam feat the characters have the justifications they have now

Also non canon should be considered as long as its not contradicting and such

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

Ryu's bad ending 7-B feat is technically non canonical

But if you downgrade all that, then elements that never happen in canon in a lot of verses would also have to be deleted.

 

[Sera_EX]

Arcade endings should be treated as secondary canon in a game with no cinematic story mode, not non-canon. It's a complete misuse of the term and applies "anime filler" logic to something that isn't anime. Hell, some game companies even claim different character endings happen in different timelines.

Simply put, the ending is useable if it isn't contradicted by lore/story or inconsistent towards the character's other feats in other cases. It's not a black-and-white scenario, and canonicity is not the right word here.

I'm ashamed that our fighting game standards still suck...

 

[Lavcore]

except ryu's ending is not secondary canon it never happened and it's contradicted by story and lore because it never happened.

 

[Sera_EX]

I said nothing about Ryu's ending and that wasn't a response to whatever you or anyone else were saying about that ending.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Just saying it never happened its not an argument, them not happening isnt contradicting anything

 

[Lavcore]

well the whole point of the thread is regarding non-canonical elements in SF mainly talking about ryu and dhalsim not about arcade endings because those are in the dubious realm of canonicity.

 

[Lavcore]

Just saying it never happened its not an argument, them not happening isnt contradicting anything

it contradicts the story because in cano ryu with the satsui no hado(and the power of friendship) one shots bison and he never gets to use ryu's power the bad ending contradicts this and so it shouldn't be considered also it's non-canon.

 

[Sera_EX]

Games back then didn't have cinematic story modes that tell you exactly what happened in a game. All we have is the manual, statements from the developers, and the in-game arcade endings.

"It never happened" as Black said isn't an argument. Using that argument, no one's ending in Street Fighter III Third Strike happened because Alex is the MC so "obviously" his ending is "canon". Does that mean Akuma couldn't one-shot Gill with the Raging Demon forcing him to resurrect? Of course he could. Could Oro best Gill with one hand tied behind his back? Highly possible, and that's not even an ending.

All I'm saying is treat arcade endings similarly to guidebook statements, anime adaptations, etc.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Contradictory is having Dan beating Akuma or like pointed by Matt, Ryu being in a band with Poison

Also towards your disagreement with fatalities and such in MK, they are cinematics which also appeared in the story and the comics

So dont know why you gotta be against any of these, there is a difference between character showing to blow a building and another from one showing to trash the final boss when we know who did it

 

[Lavcore]

again the arcade endings are in the dubious realm of canonicity also third strike is the furthest in the timeline so we don't have a sequel to check if they mention arcade endings.

 

[Lavcore]

Contradictory is having Dan beating Akuma or like pointed by Matt, Ryu being in a band with Poison
Also towards your disagreement with fatalities and such in MK, they are cinematics which also appeared in the story and the comics

So dont know why you gotta be against any of these, there is a difference between character showing to blow a building and another from one showing to trash the final boss when we know who did it

i didn't say all fatalities are non-canon i said stuff like cetrion growing to the size of a planet should not be considered.

 

[Sera_EX]

That's true and I agree they are dubiously canon. This is why I wish Capcom released those little pockets of information about the endings like they did in the 90s. Unfortunately game companies have given up due to the internet and explanation sites/videos.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

As far as i remember Ryu went Evil Ryu and one shot Bison, power of nothingness wasnt even a thing till SF4

 

[Genericstickman]

I mean their is the comic but we don't count those

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Ryu body being used to power the satellite snd nuke a city isnt contradicting anything and once again non canon are good to use if they arent contradictory or such

Gonna repeat again, "it never happened" isnt a good argument and nothing implies that feat is inconsistent, Chun Li has a small town level feat, Ryu who is leagues above her has a city level feat, it goes really well with the power scaling

 

[Lavcore]

then i guess the canon page is entirely wrong in saying that non-canon elements should not be used no matter what because they didn't happen.

being leagues above a low 7-C doesn't make you 7-B and it being really good for power scaling has nothing to do with the point at hand.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

That page should change its standards really, cuz by that logic of only canon means just the main character should be considered for story and endings

 

[Lavcore]

what?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I never said being above low 7-C = 7-B for your info buddy, i just said the difference between someone like Chun Li and Ryu is as clear as the day when it comes to what tier are both

 

[Sera_EX]

Fighting game endings follow the rules of our Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles and even our crossover and guidebook guidelines (it's weird). The base canon page is more a (currently improper) definition of what canon is. I need to rewrite it, to be honest.

 

[Genericstickman]

so Gills feat in his ending is still allowed

 

[Lavcore]

Fighting game endings follow the rules of our Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles and even our crossover and guidebook guidelines (it's weird). The base canon page is more a (currently improper) definition of what canon is. I need to rewrite it, to be honest.

i disagree the alternative canon page mostly refers to profiles and not feats also if you think the current canon page is outdated then you should create a CRT to change it but as it stands right now ryu and dhalsim go against the rule of only using canon.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

Id say the Honda feat its not that much of a outlier tbh

Akuma's Island feat was casual, only taking one punch and only to show Ryu just how strong he was and to seduce him into the dark si-i mean, the dark hadou. That was also a very early Akuma.

Akuma in SFV also stomped PoN Ryu, without even sweating or showing to be really that tired.

SFA3 Ryu (Very very, very early ryu)'s bad ending shows that his body itself is 7-B.

Honda is considered to be one of the world warriors, and thus, should at least be able to fight against the likes of Ryu and Ken, while maybe not as strong, he should at least be competent to be considered to be one of Japan's best.

Ryu has been training for long between SFA3 and SFV.

The meteori feat was a combined effort by 2 fighters working together, so it is not even something they can perfor on their own.


I find it reasonable enough that the fighters just got to 7-A by training over time.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You cant claim their training makes them jump like that in tiers, also E Honda has no other feats or was he that relevant to consider himself comparable to Ryu or Ken

The calc was also said its wrong, so this feat isnt gonna be taken in consideration

 

[Lavcore]

bump.

 

[Lavcore]

bump.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Dhalsim feat should probably be taken out imo since its after he defeated Bison happening

Ryu feat should stay, it isnt contradictory at all or anything

E Honda feat is an outlier, no ammount of explanations will make it get accepted, especially after it was said the calc is wrong too

 

[BrainSWord74]

still waiting for the link to the scene where sakura beat e. honda

Matt was probably referring to SFIV Aftermath, but Sakura beat up Zangief there, not Honda.

But she did defeat Honda in Alpha 3.

 

[Lavcore]

but that was alpha 3 you know one of the earliest points in the timeline and notorious for being mostly non-canon.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

Reminder nothing in Alpha 3 is canon except the fight between Ryu and M.Bison at the end.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

Or else Ryu would have been stronger than Akuma before he even got PoN.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Ryu isnt stronger then Akuma in any point in street fighter, neither Bison in Alpha

 

[BrainSWord74]

Reminder nothing in Alpha 3 is canon except the fight between Ryu and M.Bison at the end.

Yeah I know, Alpha 3 is full of filler fights, just wanted to remind him where exactly Sakura beat Honda.

 

[BoomerKuwanger1]

If you abuse SFA 3 then Akuma lost to Bison then Ryu beat Bison.

Ryu > Bison > Akuma

Which is nonsense.

Regardless id say everyone should be at least scaled to Ken because of the Shadaloo Dolls in SFV, who could fight on equal terms with Ken, and since they are all powered up the same, Zangief, Karin, Ibuki, Mika, and others should scale to at least SFA3 Ken.

 

[BrainSWord74]

Nah, Birdie is one the weakest chars in SFV and he was able to beat an amped Doll. They definitely don't scale to Ken.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ryu only won through the Power of Nonthingness. The amount of misinformation and bias against SF in this thread is astounding.

 

[Lavcore]

Ryu only won through the Power of Nonthingness. The amount of misinformation and bias against SF in this thread is astounding.

no one is being bias against SF matt we only want to improve the profiles and using non-canon info regardless of whether or not it's contradictory goes against our very own rules according to the canon page so either the canon page is changed or dhalsim and ryu are altered to not include non-canon info we can't have both.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Dhalsim one should be excluded since that one happens after he beat Bison

Ryu one should be counted that one isnt contradicting anything

Also Power of Nothingness wasnt a thing till SF4 and the SF5 one was against a non powered Bison weakened by Nash earlier