Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot - The canon and the non-canon

[Qawsedf234]

Keep in mind, DBZ Kakarot has the brilliant changes like:
- Piccolo didn't actually destroy the moon

The only remotely useful info is they state super saiyan is a 50x, which we already know

If the additions are minor then it shouldn't be hard to explain what will be added.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

While this is a guess, this does feel like a CRT that wants to make a controversial change but doesn't want the flak for it, so it's trying to get part of it accepted so the other part has some backing to be used.

Unless the OP clarifies what they want to use with the new canon material for I dont feel comfortable with weighing in.

I don't know yet. I will use it to change the currently absurd multiplier for SSJ2, and give SSJ3 an actual multiplier, and probably some additions for the cosmology, but I doubt it will be anything relevant.

It has a ton of evidence, far more than the anime or GT having their cosmology accepted as canon, for how little change it will provide

^ I literally already did.

Kakarot does not have anything that adds or greatly removes from the actual canon.

Keep in mind, DBZ Kakarot has the brilliant changes like:
- Piccolo didn't actually destroy the moon

The only remotely useful info is they state super saiyan is a 50x, which we already know

Oh my f-
Brother, if something is contradicted by the source material or referencing non-canon material, it isn't canon. Pointing out DBZ Kakarot has contradictions is not an effective arguments because I'M NOT TRYING TO CANONIZE THE GAME.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

If the additions are minor then it shouldn't be hard to explain what will be added.

You shouldn't reject or accept evidence based on what they will entail in the future, the evidence still has the same validity and strength either way. Too bad for this, because I'm only adding minor multipliers and using it as SECONDARY CANON, as I suggested in the OP, not primary canon. "I don't agree with the evidence because I'm afraid of it's consequences" would be no different than bias, it's even worse when it's based on bs suspicion.

We literally made Universe 7 a 4-Space Time universe based on vague statements on "Akira's Setting" on Anime and GT, this won't be nearly as agregious as that, so I don't understand your relutancy at acknowledging the evidence as more-than-good enough. But do what you want, I'm not required to get your input.

 

[Gasper]

This statement of Piccolo is literally referring to when he destroys a machine that was creating the projection of the moon underwater lol.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Well, accepting that the game has "canon enough" elements that can be used for future canon updates might not be as big of a problem as it is directly stated to be the case, I'm just worried that we might stumble into an arbitrary area of what is and what isn't canon in this game, and that also depends on what kind of updates are you guys looking for, as I wouldn't agree to anything that is not supported by the manga and its other canon sources. SS multipliers are already backed up by other official materials (as far as I know), so I won't be against their implementation

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

Yeah, if you can't reliably determine if something within the game is a "canon event" or a deviation.

We can.
Anything that references the anime, or filler from the anime is not canon, as said fillers aren't present in the manga and part of something we know isn't canon. Side stories that are 1:1 with Anime filler isn't written by Akira Toriyama, as it's something that was already written by Toei in the past.

In-between stories that have no contradiction to the source material, and add to said material, is canon. As OP showed, inbetween stories are official stories in-between the mainline story.
Information that's meant to add to the original material, such as the Encyclopedia, is canon.

We won't be taking cutscenes' interpretation of events, or gameplay as canon, but just dialogue and information.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

We can.
Anything that references the anime, or filler from the anime is not canon, as said fillers aren't present in the manga and part of something we know isn't canon. Side stories that are 1:1 with Anime filler isn't written by Akira Toriyama, as it's something that was already written by Toei in the past.

In-between stories that have no contradiction to the source material, and add to said material, is canon. As OP showed, inbetween stories are official stories in-between the mainline story.
Information that's meant to add to the original material, such as the Encyclopedia, is canon.

We won't be taking cutscenes' interpretation of events, or gameplay as canon, but just dialogue and information.

That should work then.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

as I wouldn't agree to anything that is not supported by the manga and its other canon sources

Well, you can reject that in it's own thread in case someone does it.

But what are your thoughts about the evidence presented here? We can't move forward, we're not even discussing the validity of the evidence.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

While this is a guess, this does feel like a CRT that wants to make a controversial change but doesn't want the flak for it, so it's trying to get part of it accepted so the other part has some backing to be used.

Unless the OP clarifies what they want to use with the new canon material for I don't feel comfortable with weighing in.

I think to get this game accepted it's only going to be the canon part of the game, like the story and the in-game guides, about the character attacks, which is far more precious, as well as being an update by Akira himself on his original manga material, as well as having additions to the story of the manga (where it's never been told), take this as Dragon Ball Daima is a totally untold story from its manga, it's totally exclusive, we're not bringing Dragon Ball XenoVerse and DBH into canon if that's what you're thinking, I've never played Dragon Ball Z myself: Kakarot, but its story is well told with the addition of things that were not answered within the work and we have answers about things, as well as the cosmology being much more detailed ( this from what I heard from the Op)

 

[Lightning_XXI]

"I don't agree with the evidence because I'm afraid of it's consequences" would be no different than bias.

Your thread only aimed in getting Kakarot having canon elements accepted, don't expect us to not wonder what upgrades someone may try to do using this CRT as base (assuming it gets accepted), keep in mind your not the only one that can use the benefits of Canon Kakarot being accepted, so we want to be careful

But what are your thoughts about the evidence presented here? We can't move forward, we're not even discussing the validity of the evidence.

Well, like I said, the game having canon elements is pretty much a given, so discussing what standards we should use to pick what is and what isn't canon should be our natural next step

Like this:

Anything that references the anime, or filler from the anime is not canon, as said fillers aren't present in the manga and part of something we know isn't canon. Side stories that are 1:1 with Anime filler isn't written by Akira Toriyama, as it's something that was already written by Toei in the past.

In-between stories that have no contradiction to the source material, and add to said material, is canon. As OP showed, inbetween stories are official stories in-between the mainline story.
Information that's meant to add to the original material, such as the Encyclopedia, is canon.

We won't be taking cutscenes' interpretation of events, or gameplay as canon, but just dialogue and information

This looks okay for me

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

don't expect us to not wonder what upgrades someone may try to do using this CRT as base

I already made my intentions clear, I don't think it's fair to judge something based on what may or may not cause in the future, the evidence is still there, and anything that's not related to the evidence presented in the OP is not something we should discuss here. We set the standards for the secondary canon material and then if something comes up, we can always remove it later.

This looks okay for me

Okay.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

While this is a guess, this does feel like a CRT that wants to make a controversial change but doesn't want the flak for it, so it's trying to get part of it accepted so the other part has some backing to be used.

Unless the OP clarifies what they want to use with the new canon material for I don't feel comfortable with weighing in.

I see. If that's where your concerns lie, then I can assure you that this thread isn't meant to be a repeat of me and GodofIce creating "minor revisions" that were actually the precursors to the Low 1-C DB threads. Or at least, not from my knowledge.

To provide some context, the idea to make this CRT came from a few days ago in a Dragon Ball Heroes downgrade CRT where I cited this 15-page document from a friend of mine proving Kakarot is canon. As of now, I'm not aware of major evidence we could use from Kakarot aside from:

• Reinforcing canon multipliers.
• A cosmology scan about the ROSAT which is just supporting evidence to something else already accepted.
• Some statements we could use to argue the Toeiverse is canon (against attempts to uncomposite the cosmology).

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I will follow for now, but I have mixed thoughts.

The Kakarot encyclopedia states that Super Saiyan 2 is a 2x multiplier and Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x multiplier, for example.

Now that the dust settled, any thoughts?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Brother, if something is contradicted by the source material or referencing non-canon material, it isn't canon. Pointing out DBZ Kakarot has contradictions is not an effective arguments because I'M NOT TRYING TO CANONIZE THE GAME.

The thing is though, if the game is inherently an unerliable source, why are we even trying to use things that aren't outright contradicted?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

if the game is inherently an unerliable source

How the hell is the game an unrealiable source as secondary canon? Because it has FILLER in it? How does that relate to the Encyclopedia or any CANONICAL information in the game? What part of "the scenes themselves won't be used", "the game's version of events themselves aren't canon" do you not understand?

"G-G-G-Guys, let's not use the anime adaptation as a source for timeframes anymore, it has f-f-f-filler!". That's the same logic.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

"G-G-G-Guys, let's not use the anime adaptation as a source for timeframes anymore, it has f-f-f-filler!". That's the same logic.

Oh it's used nowadays? In the past noone wanted to.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

How does that relate to the Encyclopedia or any CANONICAL information in the game?

How would you go about proving the information is unequivocally and beyond a reasonable doubt canonical, though? You'd be arbitrarily picking.

 

[DivineAura44]

That is true. There's no way you would look at a book by Einstein for example and say to everyone "believe everything in here, except the blatantly wrong parts." It takes away from the credibility of the source to have info that is incorrect. The same applies here. Saying "oh everything is canon until proven otherwise" is a bit of a crazy claim.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That is true. There's no way you would look at a book by Einstein for example and say to everyone "believe everything in here, except the blatantly wrong parts." It takes away from the credibility of the source to have info that is incorrect.

You have no idea how evidence from books or anything else works, do you?

No, if there is something about a source that has been proven to be inaccurate, that doesn't invalidate EVERYTHING that source has to offer. The argument is, "Well, one section of Einstein's theory of relativity is proven to be inaccurate, NEVER BELIEVE EINSTEIN IN ANY FIELD OF SCIENCE EVER".
I shouldn't have to explain why that's stupid

How would you go about proving the information is unequivocally and beyond a reasonable doubt canonical, though? You'd be arbitrarily picking.

The evidence is in the god damn OP. Sub-stories that take place in between arcs are canonical to the story, the setting is canon, encyclopedia is meant to add more information to the original material, which aligns with what Akira said, that's not arbitrary, that's INTERPRETING THE EVIDENCE, like ffs
Please read the OP instead of hitting me with this complaining

DBZ: Kakarot has canon elements, THAT'S IRREFUTABLE. You're complaining about what the hell we're going to do with that information in the future, that has no bearing on this CRT AT ALL. Cast a vote and stop bringing up debate points that have no weight on this revision.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

You have no idea how evidence from books or anything else works, do you?

No, if there is something about a source that has been proven to be inaccurate, that doesn't invalidate EVERYTHING that source has to offer. The argument is, "Well, one section of Einstein's theory of relativity is proven to be inaccurate, NEVER BELIEVE EINSTEIN IN ANY FIELD OF SCIENCE EVER".
I shouldn't have to explain why that's tupi


The evidence is in the god damn OP. Sub-stories that take place in between arcs are canonical to the story, the setting is canon, encyclopedia is meant to add more information to the original material, which aligns with what Akira said, that's not arbitrary, that's INTERPRETING THE EVIDENCE, like ffs
Please read the OP instead of hitting me with this complaining

DBZ: Kakarot has canon elements, THAT'S IRREFUTABLE. You're complaining about what the hell we're going to do with that information in the future, that has no bearing on this CRT AT ALL. Cast a vote and stop bringing up debate points that have no weight on this revision.

I agree with this refutation. Good job.

 

[DivineAura44]

You have no idea how evidence from books or anything else works, do you?

No, if there is something about a source that has been proven to be inaccurate, that doesn't invalidate EVERYTHING that source has to offer. The argument is, "Well, one section of Einstein's theory of relativity is proven to be inaccurate, NEVER BELIEVE EINSTEIN IN ANY FIELD OF SCIENCE EVER".
I shouldn't have to explain why that's {s}tupi{d}

Strawman. The natural thing to do after seeing something is wrong from said book would be for Einstein to individually prove everything he did is correct. Same with you. We'd wait for you to prove each part that you are claiming is canon is actually canon.

Its like if I gave everyone here a cup of water. You'd likely drink it if you say me as trustworthy. Now say someone had to use the bathroom after. Still nothing out of the ordinary. Now 2 people. 3, 4, 5. You would inspect of all the water before drinking, not say the water is safe until we see it isn't. Also there is no reason for you to capitalize your words. We can read just fine.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

This game isn't an unrealiable source just because not everything there is canon, multiple verses use information from semi canon material just as long as they are not contradicted and are directly tied to canon sources

We should focus on creating the criteria to see what are we going to use from the game

 

[DivineAura44]

This game isn't an unrealiable source just because not everything there is canon, multiple verses use information from semi canon material just as long as they are not contradicted and are directly tied to canon sources

We should focus on creating the criteria to see what are we going to use from the game

Usually each of the individual evidences are proved from the semi canon material before applied. From what I have seen, that's not what is happening here.

Also technically a whataboutism.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Although you said that we used filler from the anime, everything we used is based on Akira, as well as the script itself, all based on our draft.

Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 10 (Supplementary): TV Animation Part 3 – Animation Collections

Innovative!! Dragon Ball style script techniques

Did you know that, when the original manga was running in Weekly Jump, the anime script for the same chapter was already completed? Toriyama's editor would take the drafts he had faxed to Weekly Jump and send them to Toei Animation, and they would write the script based on that... you could say that it was precisely because of this system that this was possible. This is a good example of how the anime was made through a system of complete cooperation between the sensei, the editorial department and Toei Animation!!

The original anime material is made like this!!

Even though it is “original”, episodes and character ideas usually come from Toriyama-sensei (see article below). Additionally, Toei Animation also made stories with an understanding of the Dragon Ball world, based on the concept that, although they were not depicted in the manga: “something like this probably happened.” It's thanks to these invisible efforts that you can watch the source material without it feeling out of place.

Akira even works directly with things that weren't in the work, making things happen according to the manga

Koyama: And I was also extremely grateful for the Bardock story we did in the TV Special (The Lonely Final Battle). This is because we had the privilege of creating an aspect of the story that was not in the original work. After that, sensei followed our example with the original work…. He respected what we had done and even made the story consistent with ours. Nothing compares to this kind of blessing. I think it's rare to allow the crew and cast to do things so freely. Toriyama-sensei is incredible in that regard. We also have no intention of doing something bad, and it actually gives us the motivation to do our best.

Taken from Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 6: Movies and TV Specials – Shenron Diary

Akira knows how to fit things together well



Even Toei films go through his hand

The film scripts go through Akira Toriyama and he corrected some things

Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 6: Movies and TV Specials – Introduction and Super Interview with Akira Toriyama

I check the plot and script sent to me by Toei Animation. I also do some designs and touches on the characters, as well as changing names and things like that.

Even a scene from Dragon Ball Z is removed from the anime and placed in the super



Like in episode 3 where we see the same scene happening, as well as toei things being canon to the original material (like Bulma turning into a frog).



I don't think calling it filler is ruled out, as we can see, Akira uses everything to make his work look as usual.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Strawman.

That's literally your argument, how can you NOT understand your own words?

The natural thing to do after seeing something is wrong from said book would be for Einstein to individually prove everything he did is correct.

Einstein already have empiric proof that all he theorized was right, because it worked, what was debunked was due to new research that contradicted ONE of his empiric evidence, not ALL of them need to be re-evaluated. I already proved the game has canonical evidence, your idea is to discard it ALL even though the content doesn't contradict anything and add to the story? Nope.

Its like if I gave everyone here a cup of water. You'd likely drink it if you say me as trustworthy. Now say someone had to use the bathroom after. Still nothing out of the ordinary. Now 2 people. 3, 4, 5. You would inspect of all the water before drinking, not say the water is safe until we see it isn't.

Stop with your mindless examples that don't apply to the situation. The game has a set of numerous pieces of content that may be added to the mainline story, with a few that doesn't fit because it's also trying to satisfy the anime, your water example has one piece of content that's been rejected by several people, it's a strawman through and through.
An example that would fit this dumb analogy would be: People think the "water" is "safe", every 100 drinks of water, only 2 people complain about the taste. 98 people say it tastes just fine. Should we count the water as unsafe due to 2 refills out of 100?

Also there is no reason for you to capitalize your words. We can read just fine.

You can't, apparently

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with pretty much all of this, though I do think the New Power Awakened DLCs should still warrant their own Keys, same for the Future Trunks DLCs if Trunks ever gets a profile (the main story should still be canon to the DLC, just not the other way around) similar to how Toei Bardock has his Episode of Bardock key, even though Episode Bardock is non canon (more specifically a what-if scenario) as stated by the creator of it: Naho Ooshi)

 

[DivineAura44]

That's literally your argument, how can you NOT understand your own words?

Einstein already have empiric proof that all he theorized was right, because it worked, what was debunked was due to new research that contradicted ONE of his empiric evidence, not ALL of them need to be re-evaluated. I already proved the game has canonical evidence, your idea is to discard it ALL even though the content doesn't contradict anything and add to the story? Nope.

Stop with your mindless examples that don't apply to the situation. The game has a set of numerous pieces of content that may be added to the mainline story, with a few that doesn't fit because it's also trying to satisfy the anime, your water example has one piece of content that's been rejected by several people, it's a strawman through and through.
An example that would fit this dumb analogy would be: People think the "water" is "safe", every 100 drinks of water, only 2 people complain about the taste. 98 people say it tastes just fine. Should we count the water as unsafe due to 2 refills out of 100?

You can't, apparently

Bruh if you can't read just say that. I can dumb it down for you dude.

Mf it's an hypothetical example are you trolling? You are also proving my point because while Einstein had to prove every individual claim. You aren't.

Ok that's fine. 100 glasses of water. 5 of the people who drink it get diarrhea. Should this water be further inspected and tested before giving to people? If you are telling me no, you are clearly taking the piss and I'm not gonna continue in disingenuity.

Ironic to say the least.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The urge to say the most vile shit is corrupting my core.

The Kakarot encyclopedia states that Super Saiyan 2 is a 2x multiplier and Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x multiplier, for example.

I will follow for now, but I have mixed thoughts.

Quoting again, please give your thoughts, I'm about to have an aneurysm.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @DemonGodMitchAubin @Maverick_Zero_X @EliminatorVenom @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens

What do you think about this?

 

[Nierre]

Random Ant Jumpscare

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I agree with this, I even think that there are many more canon details in the dragon ball series in general, but I don't believe that I have the time to open crt for these

 

[Qawsedf234]

You shouldn't reject or accept evidence based on what they will entail in the future, the evidence still has the same validity and strength either way. Too bad for this, because I'm only adding minor multipliers and using it as SECONDARY CANON, as I suggested in the OP, not primary canon. "I don't agree with the evidence because I'm afraid of it's consequences" would be no different than bias, it's even worse when it's based on bs suspicion.

I just don't like stealth upgrade attempts. The fact that this was brought up:

this thread isn't meant to be a repeat of me and GodofIce creating "minor revisions" that were actually the precursors to the Low 1-C DB threads. Or at least, not from my knowledge.

Is what my worry was, since that was primary goal of previous DB revisions looking for a Tiering upgrade. Just get a bunch of minor revisions passed because the main revision would get to much heat and then back pedal to other CRTs when questioned. OPM users did the same with the G5 laser stuff.

For the CRT I'm not against the game being used as supporting evidence in of itself I guess.

EDIT: I would still like it if you spelled put what you want added. You've still been vague about it.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yeah after hearing more of topaz reasonings I agree with this

 

[Gasper]

Isn't db already Low 1-C?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don't have much of an issue with this, obviously the stuff that doesn't fit in the original work won't be used and there will be discussions for any potential additions. I don't have any real problem with the game itself having canon elements that could potentially be used for the canon profiles so long as it's actually valid.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have work soon, but I recall being brought up offsite about the "Multipliers thing". Which I kind of have issues with some since SSJ2 was actually much higher than 2x and recall someone mentioning 20x due to Ultra SSJ being 10x stronger than Ascended SSJ in terms of raw power rather than speed. As it's a downgrade in speed compared to Ascended SSJ that is uncertain where it compares compared to regular SSJ. And ASSJ > SSJ in power and speed. And something about "Half strength" being compared to someone's USSJ form. Though I could see the 2x being used for speed scaling.

As for SSJ3, I am basically neutral on using the 4x stuff.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I just don't like stealth upgrade attempts. The fact that this was brought up:

Is what my worry was, since that was primary goal of previous DB revisions looking for a Tiering upgrade. Just get a bunch of minor revisions passed because the main revision would get to much heat and then back pedal to other CRTs when questioned. OPM users did the same with the G5 laser stuff.

For the CRT I'm not against the game being used as supporting evidence in of itself I guess.

EDIT: I would still like it if you spelled put what you want added. You've still been vague about it.

They are quite intelligent

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I just don't like stealth upgrade attempts.

It would just be convoluted if I did both the canon and actual upgrade in the same thread, is all.

For the CRT I'm not against the game being used as supporting evidence in of itself I guess.

EDIT: I would still like it if you spelled put what you want added. You've still been vague about it.

Here? The game's elements, Encyclopedia and setting. Cosmology wise, it changes virtually nothing and has supporting evidence for the current rating.


What I will try in the future:

• Downgrade SSJ2's multiplier
• Give SSJ3's it's multiplier
• Add some more supporting evidence for the current statistic.
• Use the encyclopedia for some uncleared scaling issues.

That's it.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I have work soon, but I recall being brought up offsite about the "Multipliers thing". Which I kind of have issues with some since SSJ2 was actually much higher than 2x and recall someone mentioning 20x due to Ultra SSJ being 10x stronger than Ascended SSJ in terms of raw power rather than speed. As it's a downgrade in speed compared to Ascended SSJ that is uncertain where it compares compared to regular SSJ. And ASSJ > SSJ in power and speed. And something about "Half strength" being compared to someone's USSJ form. Though I could see the 2x being used for speed scaling.

As for SSJ3, I am basically neutral on using the 4x stuff.

Hey uhhh, this thread isn't about the multipliers, it's about Kakarot being allowed as supplementary evidence for the series.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

What I will try in the future:

• Downgrade SSJ2's multiplier
• Give SSJ3's it's multiplier
• Add some more supporting evidence for the current statistic.
• Use the encyclopedia for some uncleared scaling issues.

Personaly i have no problem with the first 3 points, the 4th one is the one that has me worried what later issues it will cuase. I have no problem with bring in supporting arguemnts for stuff that is already canon, but I don't like the idea of bring in completly new stuff or upgrading stuff with 0 evidence in the actual show. Either way i woulden't mind using canon mutliplayers for DB.

 

[Qawsedf234]

would just be convoluted if I did both the canon and actual upgrade in the same thread, is all.

A CRT about "X is canon so Y thing should be implemented" isn't convoluted imo.

What I will try in the future:

• Downgrade SSJ2's multiplier
• Give SSJ3's it's multiplier
• Add some more supporting evidence for the current statistic.
• Use the encyclopedia for some uncleared scaling issues.

Alright