Red Dead Redemption: Eagle-Eye & Dead-Eye.

[KLOL506]

like in GTA V where you can see stuff in slow motion while driving, shooting or even punching, things that are never acknowledged as the protagonist having time powers or anything like that, they are explicitly acknowledged as the protagonist just being skilled at certain things, similar to RDR2 protagonist being skilled at shooting and quick drawing.

Lamar actually admits to Franklin's ability being a real thing twice in a row.

 

[Dalesean027]

Lamar actually admits to Franklin's ability being a real thing twice in a row.

I was about to link that

 

[LordGinSama]

Lamar actually admits to Franklin's ability being a real thing twice in a row.

I'm pretty sure they literally have this on their profiles too.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Lamar actually admits to Franklin's ability being a real thing twice in a row.

I was refering to it being an self-perception thing instead of it be considered as time manipulation, I know they are acknowledge as real abilities but if they were actual time powers they could be used at whatever moment.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah the thing with franklin is tho its still self perception manip and Lamar specifcally talks about his eyes when he's doing it so its not necessarily a time thing but it is a supernatural perception thing so no time manip here, expectro is right in that regard

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I'm pretty sure they literally have this on their profiles too.

They are, as self perception manipulation.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Dead Eye: I'm fine with changing it to a limited form of time manip. It does feel off, because the game does have a more grounded setting than most other games, and perhaps some feel as though it cheapens the game to give it this hax: yet, it is Rockstar's words that give evidence to these claims. I see no fault in the logic of the OP.

Eagle Eye: This one is hazier for me because most of the language used to describe it that would justify extrasensory perception is indeed purely mechanical, and sometimes even makes it seem as though they're not going for a supernatural ability here but rather need a convenient way to display information to the player. Furthermore, some of the other arguments here don't really stack up- Arthur being able to sense danger doesn't make sense given the amount of times he's been surprised with no indication of foreknowledge- this specific example just had a lot of problems with it, so he was probably on alert anyways. I think Enhanced Senses covers every practical function of Eagle Eye fine, with everything possibly justifying Extrasensory Perception being mostly flavor or mechanics to make it easier to use (such as tracks glowing or organs being shown).

Damage Reduction: Agreed. Marston taking no damage while in Dead Eye seems like it was retconned by 2.

Superhuman Precision: I don't see why this is necessary if you're already giving Time Manip, so disagree.

 

[LordGinSama]

I was refering to it being an self-perception thing instead of it be considered as time manipulation, I know they are acknowledge as real abilities but if they were actual time powers they could be used at whatever moment.

There's a massive difference between the two. Frankin's stuff is described as perception manipulation, not time slowing down. None of the scans imply or insinuate that it's perception based.

About Dead Eye being considered slowing of literal time, it's very doubtful that this is actually the case as the ability it's something that can be activated and recharged in general by using strong alcohol, oil snake, tobacco (specifically chewing tobacco) or medicine made with normal plants.

Those only restore his ability to use it. This is not an anti feat in any capacity nor is it evident of it being based on perception.

and unless those things possess some magical properties in RDR world that grant time powers (which would thus mean that everyone and their mother can affect time in RDR world).

This is argument from disbelief which isn't applicable here. It's irrelevant here, Naruto is about Ninjas but they can bust moons, erase shit from existence etc. One Piece is about Pirates and they obviously have shit that isnt typical.

then it's far more logical to assume that Dead Eye don't affect the literal time of the surroundings and instead it's just the self-perception of the user.

Not all all, it's only "far more logical." By using a massive amount of assumptions and using something that's never stated vs them saying outright time is slowed multiple times.

As things that affect the cognition of the user and his physical state end interacting with the ability. This can also be supported by the fact that while using Dead Eye the user gets special senses (like the weak points vision)

Special senses =/= His perception being slowed.

as well as the fact that other similar ability that like Eagle Eye it's also completely sense related and they also slow the gameplay.

Eagle-Eye is a different ability, with the only connection being that time is slowed albeit not for combat.

Another thing that can support the idea that it's just the self-perception of the user that gets affected it's the fact that most Rockstar games tend to possess abilities that affect the user perception with the objetive to facilitate the player capacity to accomplish certain things and improve their experience, like in GTA V where you can see stuff in slow motion while driving, shooting or even punching, things that are never acknowledged as the protagonist having time powers or anything like that, they are explicitly acknowledged as the protagonist just being skilled at certain things, similar to RDR2 protagonist being skilled at shooting and quick drawing.

This was addressed and these are two different verses.

 

[LordGinSama]

They are, as self perception manipulation.

Neat, Franklin isn't Arthur and Read Dead isn't GTA. Franklin and Co have statements about altering their perception. Arthur doesn't. Franklin and Co don't have statements of slowing down time. Arthur does. You cannot compare the two.

 

[LordGinSama]

Superhuman Precision: I don't see why this is necessary if you're already giving Time Manip, so disagree.

This is for him without Dead-Eye, basically just reflecting his skill. As for Eagle Eye it was taught to him in the actual lore / cutscenes.

 

[KLOL506]

Superhuman Precision: I don't see why this is necessary if you're already giving Time Manip, so disagree.

This one no longer relies on Dead Eye.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is for him without Dead-Eye, basically just reflecting his skill. As for Eagle Eye it was taught to him in the actual lore / cutscenes.

Eagle Eye being taught to him in-lore doesn't really justify it not being Enhanced Senses. Tracking and the like is indeed a learned skill. The justifications for specifically Extrasensory Perception seem for the most part flimsy.

As for the precision thing, that's probably fine then, ig, I thought it was Dead Eye because the OP kind of just slapped it on after the second mention of Dead Eye upgrades.

also please just make an Imgur gallery next time, this is horrific

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Those only restore his ability to use it. This is not an anti feat in any capacity nor is it evident of it being based on perception.

The fact that drugs, normal drugs, are able to interact in any way with an ability that it's supposed to alter time itself suggest that time itself isn't getting affected through the ability, specially because the ability that it's supposed to affect time also grants an special vision, the ability to see weak points, something completely unreleated to time manipulation and instead related with the biology of the user body (with their cognition basically), that added with the fact that the ability gives a different vision of the world (slow motion vision), makes more logical for it to be cognitive ability than a supernatural power that alter the very time of the world, on top of the fact that RDR is a more realistical/ground based game that support this interpretation. For it to be time manipulation it would be need stronger evidence than what it's currently being used.

This is argument from disbelief which isn't applicable here. It's irrelevant here, Naruto is about Ninjas but they can bust moons, erase shit from existence etc. One Piece is about Pirates and they obviously have shit that isnt typical.

Oh ok, if this an argument from disbelief could you show me the proof that those things (strong alcohol, snake oil, chewing tobacco and medicine) have supernatural properties in the RDR world that let people affect time? Because I would welcome with open arms such evidence.

And I don't know what are you trying to imply by mentioning very supernatural verses like Naruto and One Piece which are completely different in all aspects to RDR, like I really don't get it.

Not all all, it's only "far more logical." By using a massive amount of assumptions and using something that's never stated vs them saying outright time is slowed multiple times.

Massive amount of assumptions? For saying that an ability with cognitive capabilities have cognitive related abilities and gets affected by things that interact with the cognition of people through chemical changes in the human body? Don't know if other will consider that an massive amount of assumption compared to say that an cognitive ability, that gets affected by chemical substances, have the property to affect the literal time of things in a relatively realistical setting.

Special senses =/= His perception being slowed.

Special senses =/= The literal time itself getting altered. It's more reasonable to say that Dead Eye, an ability named for the sight sense, which grants an special vision of the world, see things at slow motion and see weak points, it's a cognitive based ability instead of an time manipulation ability, as both powers are based on the sight sense of the user, if it was based on the alteration of time the ability instead would had be called Dead Time for example.

Eagle-Eye is a different ability, with the only connection being that time is slowed albeit not for combat.

Yes, it's another ability, but one also related to the senses of the user (so a cognitive ability), with a name related to senses, which also slow time like Dead Eye, so they share enough similarities to be used as object of comparison.

This was addressed and these are two different verses.

These two are games made by the same company, with similarly realistical settings (though at different times), with similar abilities, and which we currently consider as part of the same verse (based on the fact that both share the same verse page and have some references between them, like a book written by J. Marston), so they are two things with enough connections to be valid to use as an object of comparison, at least they are a certainly far more valid comparison than verses like Naruto or One Piece that you brought out of nowhere.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

The fact that drugs, normal drugs, are able to interact in any way with an ability that it's supposed to alter time itself suggest that time itself isn't getting affected through the ability, specially because the ability that it's supposed to affect time also grants an special vision, the ability to see weak points, something completely unreleated to time manipulation and instead related with the biology of the user body (with their cognition basically), that added with the fact that the ability gives a different vision of the world (slow motion vision), makes more logical for it to be cognitive ability than a supernatural power that alter the very time of the world, on top of the fact that RDR is a more realistical/ground based game that support this interpretation. For it to be time manipulation it would be need stronger evidence than what it's currently being used.

Oh ok, if this an argument from disbelief could you show me the proof that those things (strong alcohol, snake oil, chewing tobacco and medicine) have supernatural properties in the RDR world that let people affect time? Because I would welcome with open arms such evidence.

And I don't know what are you trying to imply by mentioning very supernatural verses like Naruto and One Piece which are completely different in all aspects to RDR, like I really don't get it.

Massive amount of assumptions? For saying that an ability with cognitive capabilities have cognitive related abilities and gets affected by things that interact with the cognition of people through chemical changes in the human body? Don't know if other will consider that an massive amount of assumption compared to say that an cognitive ability, that gets affected by chemical substances, have the property to affect the literal time of things in a relatively realistical setting.

Special senses =/= The literal time itself getting altered. It's more reasonable to say that Dead Eye, an ability named for the sight sense, which grants an special vision of the world, see things at slow motion and see weak points, it's a cognitive based ability instead of an time manipulation ability, as both powers are based on the sight sense of the user, if it was based on the alteration of time the ability instead would had be called Dead Time for example.

Yes, it's another ability, but one also related to the senses of the user (so a cognitive ability), with a name related to senses, which also slow time like Dead Eye, so they share enough similarities to be used as object of comparison.

These two are games made by the same company, with similarly realistical settings (though at different times), with similar abilities, and which we currently consider as part of the same verse (based on the fact that both share the same verse page and have some references between them, like a book written by J. Marston), so they are two things with enough connections to be valid to use as an object of comparison, at least they are a certainly far more valid comparison than verses like Naruto or One Piece that you brought out of nowhere.

RDR is also a game involving a possible embodiment of Death (the strange man), perfected time travel, a living robot, zombies of all things, etc, an ability such as time manipulation existing wouldn't be "out of the norm" for it.

Easter Egg mentions and possible connections hold no value when the abilities are intrinsically described in two different ways. GTA clearly mentions it in a perception based way, RDR in game and via guidebooks considers it to be time manipulation. Saying in game statements and statements in guides are wrong is just your own headcanon and your own disbelief

Just because he restores the dead eye bar and grants some enhances to due to those methods doesn't someone take away from the presented statements. These things only work specifically for Arthur, John, Jack and Landon Rickets. You are essentially arguing any random human who smokes in RDR magically gains, in your view, perception manipulation, enhanced senses and the like. I mean, if you want to apply said abilities to literally every character and npc in the game, be my guest.

 

[LordGinSama]

The fact that drugs, normal drugs, are able to interact in any way with an ability that it's supposed to alter time itself suggest that time itself isn't getting affected through the ability.

The items's do not alter time itself, don't get it twisted. All they do is refill the ability to use Dead-Eye. They do not grant time powers, they just allow you to refill the ability to use said power if you already have it. Obviously they aren't gonna do shit if someone that doesn't have Dead-Eye smokes or drinks.

specially because the ability that it's supposed to affect time also grants an special vision.

Literally how is them gaining special vision even remotely close to an anti feat in regards to Time Manipulation? Again the vision thing isn't apart of the time slowing. Dead-Eye has several abilities packed into one, it being able to highlight shit is irrelevant to it slowing down time. Are we gonna continue to use random assumptions or are you going to post scans of it being perception based?

the ability to see weak points, something completely unreleated to time manipulation and instead related with the biology of the user body (with their cognition basically), that added with the fact that the ability gives a different vision of the world (slow motion vision.)

Read above, Dead-Eye isn't an ability that solely manipulates time. It's several abilities packed into one, quite frankly your just using baseless Causation in order to try to fit thing using your narrative. Your argument also requires tons of assumptions, ones that you can't even support.

Makes more logical for it to be cognitive ability than a supernatural power that alter the very time of the world, on top of the fact that RDR is a more realistical/ground based game that support this interpretation.

This is an appeal to reality and argument from disbelief. Both of which are not legitimate arguments to be used here, furthermore it's absolutely not more "logical" whenever the passage of time is stated to slow down, with it never being stated or implied to be a result of slowing down one's perception of time.


This is "It's time manipulation since both the games and Guidebook makes it clear." Vs "The Databook and games are wrong, what if instead of time manipulation its something that's never stated like Perception Manipulation." Your's uses much more assumptions, ergo Occam's Razor comes into play here.

or it to be time manipulation it would be need stronger evidence than what it's currently being used.

Time Manipulation doesn't have standards, all the evidence you need is time being effected which we have dozens statements of.

Oh ok, if this an argument from disbelief could you show me the proof that those things (strong alcohol, snake oil, chewing tobacco and medicine) have supernatural properties in the RDR world that let people affect time? Because I would welcome with open arms such evidence.

Nice strawman. Thankfully for me I don't need to supply that type of evidence in the first place because said items don't allow Arthur to manipulate time. They simply restore the ability to do so. Also you do realize you can't counter an appeal to reality fallacy by requesting to post evidence of the same happening in real life? You do realize that's the whole point of that fallacy correct?

And I don't know what are you trying to imply by mentioning very supernatural verses like Naruto and One Piece which are completely different in all aspects to RDR, like I really don't get it.

Simple really, because you used an appeal to reality fallacy as a legitimate argument. RDR2 is supposed to be "semi" realistic, not actually realistic to the tee.

Massive amount of assumptions? For saying that an ability with cognitive capabilities have cognitive related abilities and gets affected by things that interact with the cognition of people through chemical changes in the human body?

Yeah, that's a massive assumption to be making in regards to several statements being outright slowed. As I said above, those items do not manipulate time, they simply refill his ability to do so.

Don't know if other will consider that an massive amount of assumption compared to say that an cognitive ability, that gets affected by chemical substances, have the property to affect the literal time of things in a relatively realistical setting.

Your arguments quite literally do use vastly more assumptions than mine. My argument doesnt even use assumptions, it uses statements. Yours uses assumptions and many of them.

Special senses =/= The literal time itself getting altered.

Thankfully the Databook and Game never make any mention of special senses. Also Special senses =/= one's perception of time being slowed down, this is an argument that goes both ways. Now I'm gonna ask you, outside of assumptions do you have actual evidence that this is a result of perception manipulation such as statements? No? Exactly. All you have are assumptions.

It's more reasonable to say that Dead Eye, an ability named for the sight sense, which grants an special vision of the world, see things at slow motion and see weak points, it's a cognitive based ability instead of an time manipulation ability, as both powers are based on the sight sense of the user, if it was based on the alteration of time the ability instead would had be called Dead Time for example.

First of all, again that's not how that works. It could be named **** all for all it matters, the name of the ability is pretty much irrelevant. Furthermore as I've said, Dead-Eye isn't just time manipulation. It's Extrasensory Perception in the form of being able to see vitals and scents.


Being able to see organs =/= Being able to slow down your perception of time. These are two different abilities that Dead-Eye grants, all this is would be a case of Causation without any real evidence for doing so.

Yes, it's another ability, but one also related to the senses of the user (so a cognitive ability)

Expect that it's never stated to be cognitive based. Are you going to post actual scans or what? Because it's becoming annoying to reply to arguments that are based upon various assumptions and self based conclusions rather than showing actual scans for your claims.

with a name related to senses, which also slow time like Dead Eye, so they share enough similarities to be used as object of comparison.

Name Association Fallacy. The name shouldn't matter, it could have bloodly hell been called the **** you button and it'd still have no impact. This is like me saying Vegeta should be Low 2-C since the name of his attack is Big Bang attack.

These two are games made by the same company, with similarly realistical settings (though at different times)

Uh no. In GTA there aren't massive Legendary Animals going around, there aren't new species and sub species of life, made by different parts of Rockstar, meaning both are made by different workers. I wasn't aware that GTA has Legendary animals, took place in the same setting and was worked on by the same exact crew. RDR2 has wish granting, curses, the personification of death / the devil himself, zombies (nightfolk.) And literal ghosts.

with similar abilities, and which we currently consider as part of the same verse (based on the fact that both share the same verse page and have some references between them, like a book written by J. Marston)

This hardly a good point to be making since the verse page realistically needs to change to something such as The Rockstar verse. Furthermore not all Rockstar Games are connected, GTA 5 isn't connected to all of the games. It's even referred to being in another alternative universe from some of the other games.

so they are two things with enough connections to be valid to use as an object of comparison, at least they are a certainly far more valid comparison than verses like Naruto or One Piece that you brought out of nowhere.

Aside from the fact that different teams worked on them, have different statements of the abilities in both games, are completely different universes (they're apart of the same verse but not happening in the same universe.), both have wildly different stories and abilities, plots, game mechanics, etc. At the end of the day all your really doing is using a load of assumptions then writing them off as 100% factual. Now I'll ask you again. Do you or do you not have statements of their perception being responsible for the time slow whenever the game and Guidebook themselves state otherwise? As far as I'm aware you aren't any authority to be making connections like that.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

@LordGinSama Every NPC in RDR clearly just has perception manipulation, enhanced senses and/or time manipulation because they can smoke 20 packs a day

 

[LordGinSama]

Ofc, don't ya know Dead-Eye is something that everyone has? And you totally get it by smoking and drinking all the time, yeah definitely not gained by a select few individuals over the course of years.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Frfr

Anyway, as for ESP, even if it isn't counted as part of Eagle Eye, it would undoubately then just fall under Arthur's natural instincts/senses in that he is able to locate extremely small objects, trails and what not which would need to be noted down on his profile, hunting and gathering information, trails especially with legendary animals as shown in the legendary bear quest show Arthur is just good at finding targets with the smallest of details and smells

 

[LordGinSama]

Just to address the Supernatural stuff one last time, Ghosts do exist in the verse and Arthur can see them. There's also the fact that Big Foot is a real thing in the game, whereas in GTA 5 it was just a dude dressed up. So claiming that RDR2 isn't at all Supernatural while using GTA 5 to support that idea isn't legitimate in ant capacity.

Edit: We also have vampires, so yeah no claiming nothing in Rdrd2 is dead wrong.

 

[LordGinSama]

One last thing, GTA 5 was worked on by Rockstar North. Rdrd2 was made by Rockstar San Diego. California and New York exist in Red Dead, they do not in GTA 5. Sam or Dan (can't remember which.) said that GTA IV and V take place in the same universe whereas GTA III, vice city and SA are taken place in separate universes.


Furthermore, it's literally stated that Red Dead doesn't share the same universe, with the only thing from Red Dead in gta 5 being for promotions. John's book GTA 5 is w simple nod from Rockstar and for promotional use.


While Red Dead is not connected to any of Grand Theft Auto's own parallel universes, certain features make a crossover in Grand Theft Auto Online as part of promotions for Red Dead Redemption 2 and Content Updates in Red Dead Online.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Just to note down what has been accepted by the majority, including staff so far, Time Manipulation (slowing down of time), senses, and Damage Reduction via Dead Eye, Superhuman precision without dead eye and something about enhanced senses with Eagle Eye.

It should also just be noted Arthur and co can naturally see very faint trails/small objects etc naturally if it is not ESP

Could these things be applied?

Edit: Anything else mentioned in this thread (speed and calc related things) will be handled on another thread, no point bringing it up here.

 

[LordGinSama]

Anyway it's like 10-2 so I'll consider this as the grace period.

 

[LordGinSama]

Oh yeah one more thing, Time Manipulation literally exists in Red Dead. We have a literal time traveler, so acting as if its completely unheard of in the verse is automatically invalid.

 

[KLOL506]

Anyway it's like 10-2 so I'll consider this as the grace period.

Grace starts from when the thread is made.

Also, the only votes that count in CRTs are thread mod votes, admin votes and bureau votes.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

RDR is also a game involving a possible embodiment of Death (the strange man), perfected time travel, a living robot, zombies of all things, etc, an ability such as time manipulation existing wouldn't be "out of the norm" for it.

Easter Egg mentions and possible connections hold no value when the abilities are intrinsically described in two different ways. GTA clearly mentions it in a perception based way, RDR in game and via guidebooks considers it to be time manipulation. Saying in game statements and statements in guides are wrong is just your own headcanon and your own disbelief

You mean the minor character from a side quest that it's also brought in GTA? Or the minor time traveler from a side quest that is a reference to other GTA characters like Kraff or Ernest? The robot made from the minor character that is'ts a reference to Tesla and the trope of mad scientist like Frankestein? Or the ghost that it's a reference to La Llorona? Or the big foot which it's a reference to GTA? Or the zombies added in a dlc (aka Call of Duty Zombies equivalent in the years when Call of Duty Zombies was popular) where there are differences compared with the actual main story? The same dlc that it's explicitly said to be non canon and a separate thing?

DH: The Undead Nightmare story takes place during the "home" period of the main game, while John is trying to rebuild his ranch but before the end of the game--a period that we imagined took several months. (If you've played the game to the end, please don't put spoilers in the comments.) You play Undead Nightmare as John, and it is an entirely stand-alone game that runs separately from Red Dead Redemption's main story and not part of any Red Dead Redemption canon, if such a thing exists. Red Dead Revolver is also its own universe Nightmare DLC Interview

This is from the same interview where the developer straight up call RDR non supernatural and clarify that they just wanted to give it some humour:

So, the fantastical direction was something we wanted to impose on an existing nonfantastical world, and because of their shared American cinematic heritage, the beautiful landscape, and our love for the character set, we felt Red Dead was a perfect candidate for that

We wanted a game that had some humor in it, however, and I hope we managed that.

But this isn't the only interview where they clarify that they wanted RDR to feel as realistic as possible but still be fun, which explains why all the supernatural stuff are just minor Easter Eggs that don't reflect in the actual main narrative of the game, which it's why it wouldn't make sense for them to add a big supernatural super power to the protagonist without ever mentioning or acknowledging said power in the lore or narrative of the work.

It's also important to note that Rockstar straight up says that their games are build based in their previous games (heck they went so far to note how RDR 2 was especially influenced from their previous games), which is why they have so many similar elements and references between them, so to compare the slow motion mechanics between both games it's perfectly valid and logic as, per the developers own words, they took the good things of the other games, so that along with the fact that it's never acknowledge in lore to be any sort of time alteration supernatural ability and it's instead a cognitive ability the characters have thanks to their great skill at certain things (like GTA special abilities), something that requires less assumptions than say that the protagonists possess an supernatural power never mentioned in lore.

Just because he restores the dead eye bar and grants some enhances to due to those methods doesn't someone take away from the presented statements. These things only work specifically for Arthur, John, Jack and Landon Rickets. You are essentially arguing any random human who smokes in RDR magically gains, in your view, perception manipulation, enhanced senses and the like. I mean, if you want to apply said abilities to literally every character and npc in the game, be my guest.

If you didn't know, drugs can actually affect the cognition of people, there is actually even an specific type of substances know as cognitive enhancers that boost the cognition of people. Now, said drugs doesn't make people gain the ability to see in slow motion in real life indeed, but in a game where the developers wanted to make things fun while still feeling realistic it's understable how they would choose to exaggerate their effects to some extent, or more specifically exaggerate what those drugs would do with very skilled people. After all, even in this same thread @Starter_Pack have also brought a similar phenomenon with how in life-threatening situations time seems to slow down, which can also apply in this case. Because if you didn't know the main intention of the developers with Dead Eye was the player experience, not an supernatural ability that manipulate time itself:

We fundamentally revised the shootings. We hope to deliver the best Gunplay so far. The feeling, the speed and the connection with the weapons is just something completely different. Rob Nelson Interview

If you want to go over such a length to add, what the developers only intended to be mechanic to improve the players experience and have fun, as an ability as big an serious as literal time manipulation (instead of something more reasonable and logical) despite the actual lore of the story not allude or acknowledging the existence of such a supernatural power, using as a basis minor joke references to other works and explicitly non canon supernatural stuff to justificate it, then go ahead, at that point there is nothing that would ever change your opinion, and I no longer care about trying to change your opinion, many already consider the wiki a joke so Ig that giving them another reason to think that it's fine. This is my last post in the thread if it wasn't clear.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

This is my last post in the thread if it wasn't clear.

I somehow doubt that lol, we'll see

You mean the minor character from a side quest that it's also brought in GTA? Or the minor time traveler from a side quest that is a reference to other GTA characters like Kraff or Ernest? The robot made from the minor character that is'ts a reference to Tesla and the trope of mad scientist like Frankestein? Or the ghost that it's a reference to La Llorona? Or the big foot which it's a reference to GTA? Or the zombies added in a dlc (aka Call of Duty Zombies equivalent in the years when Call of Duty Zombies was popular) where there are differences compared with the actual main story? The same dlc that it's explicitly said to be non canon and a separate thing?

You've shown me on two different threads now that you blatantly just ignore the points Gin or I are making. I clearly stated in my post that easter egg references have nothing to do with the abilities as they are intrinsically described in two different ways in the games. They are from the same developers, of course there's going to be easter eggs lol. References to tropes or famous horror tales, ok??? What point are you making here? If a verse mentions famous tales then somehow you can use it to scale other verses?

This is from the same interview where the developer straight up call RDR non supernatural and clarify that they just wanted to give it some humour:


But this isn't the only interview where they clarify that they wanted RDR to feel as realistic as possible but still be fun, which explains why all the supernatural stuff are just minor Easter Eggs that don't reflect in the actual main narrative of the game, which it's why it wouldn't make sense for them to add a big supernatural super power to the protagonist without ever mentioning or acknowledging said power in the lore or narrative of the work.

My brother, READ what you posted yourself. That ENTIRE interview is specifically talking about Undead Nightmare and its fanatical plot. It being "nonfanatical" has nothing to do with the supernatural stuff that takes place in the game. Which, moving on to, how do you actually go around and say with so much confidence that the aforementioend things are just minor easter eggs???? The Strange Man quests in RDR1 has a full on story line, and how he literally assigns where John is going to die. He is NOT just some minor easter egg, he exists in the game weather you like it or not as some weird supernatural power. He put a curse on Armadillo, he blessed the shopkeeper to not get sick while everyone else did. These supernatural things happened, you cannot change that they did. That is effectively all that is needed to shut down the "just easter eggs bro doesnt matter" argument, but I'll go on. The Time Travel dude is a full on mission as well, not just some random easter egg. The man time travels. Plain and simple. Time Travel exists in the verse, another supernatural event out of the ordinary. The Ghost exists in the verse as a character. Big Foot exists, and like Gin pointed out, it is actually big foot as opposed to GTA (Not that it would matter if GTA did have an actual Big Foot).

It's also important to note that Rockstar straight up says that their games are build based in their previous games (heck they went so far to note how RDR 2 was especially influenced from their previous games), which is why they have so many similar elements and references between them, so to compare the slow motion mechanics between both games it's perfectly valid and logic as, per the developers own words, they took the good things of the other games, so that along with the fact that it's never acknowledge in lore to be any sort of time alteration supernatural ability and it's instead a cognitive ability the characters have thanks to their great skill at certain things (like GTA special abilities), something that requires less assumptions than say that the protagonists possess an supernatural power never mentioned in lore.

On top of not reading my points, now you just aren't listening to what the developers of the game are saying "All of our games build on the games that came before. It is a product of the good things of the game before it. I can interact with x and y and z" (paraphrasing what he said ofc). "GTA was a big leap forward in the industry, I think other people would agree with that". They are talking about how they are trying to make the games better than the games before it, plot, how beautiful the game looks, etc, do you think that man sat there and was thinking "yeah Dead Eye too". Not that this shit even matters, the core is that this has nothing to do with how both games describe the abilities differently.

If you didn't know, drugs can actually affect the cognition of people, there is actually even an specific type of substances know as cognitive enhancers that boost the cognition of people. Now, said drugs doesn't make people gain the ability to see in slow motion in real life indeed, but in a game where the developers wanted to make things fun while still feeling realistic it's understable how they would choose to exaggerate their effects to some extent, or more specifically exaggerate what those drugs would do with very skilled people. After all, even in this same thread @Starter_Pack have also brought a similar phenomenon with how in life-threatening situations time seems to slow down, which can also apply in this case. Because if you didn't know the main intention of the developers with Dead Eye was the player experience, not an supernatural ability that manipulate time itself:

I am aware, and please stomp ignoring my points. Your argument hinges on "this grants x", when it doesnt, it refills what is neccsessary to x. Again, by your logic every mf in 1899 in RDR has these supernatural perception enhanced senses pin point vitals shit, when they clearly don't, Landon Ricketts puts your argument in the dirt as the missions with him just straight up clarify on special people can do Dead Eye.

I want to tackle the last paragraph in particular. "despite the actual lore of the story not allude or acknowledging the existence of a supernatural power"?????? The guidebooks? In the game itself as part of narration??? LANDON RICKETTS???? The rest is just "lol not supernatural stuff", which I've responded to before. Supernatural shit exists in RDR. There's no way around it. Time Manipulation is nothing out of the ordinary where there's a mf who has intangibility, pops up randomly outta no where, people who can tell the future, etc among all the other shit I mentioned.

"many already consider the wiki a joke so Ig that giving them another reason to think that it's fine. This is my last post in the thread if it wasn't clear."
Im not even active on this wiki anymore my guy, after this im only adding a verse again and I'm out of here lol, but I dont see how this comment is necessary. And I promise you, the general person that doesnt scale will just take at face value that dead eye is time manipulation because thats what it tells them in game lol

 

[LordGinSama]

You mean the minor character from a side quest that it's also brought in GTA?

Wrong character. He's talking about the Strange Man, who isn't in any GTA game. Furthermore, all the red dead references in GTA are simply just promotional and not actually canon. Red Dead doesn't take place in the same universe as any of the gta games.

Or the minor time traveler from a side quest that is a reference to other GTA characters like Kraff or Ernest?

None of these are the inspiration behind the Red Dead Time traveler. All you have here in terms of connection is time travel, to which the first dude doesn't have and the second one isn't anything like the one from Red Dead. It's also literally just satire in GTA, I don't even need to explain why if you bothered playing the game.

Quite frankly this is just more blatant Causation with no real backing. Do you actually have statements of these beings references to one another other than "I said so"?

The robot made from the minor character that is'ts a reference to Tesla and the trope of mad scientist like Frankestein?

This is literally irrelevant and has nothing to do with the topic on hand. The topic bringing it up is about proving supernatural shit does exist in Red Dead.

Or the ghost that it's a reference to La Llorona?

Read above, it being a reference to La Llorona does not matter. Furthermore you don't have any legitimate sources to make this claim.

Or the big foot which it's a reference to GTA?

Happened first in Red Dead. In GTA it was just a dude in a custom, in Red Dead it's the real thing. Also you know for a fact that GTA is the one making a reference to Red Dead, as Red Dead came out before GTA 5 making that argument moot and null due to GTA having borrowed the idea from the first Red Dead Game while also being different due to it not being the real big foot.

Or the zombies added in a dlc (aka Call of Duty Zombies equivalent in the years when Call of Duty Zombies was popular) where there are differences compared with the actual main story? The same dlc that it's explicitly said to be non canon and a separate thing?

You really don't even know what your talking about huh? Nobody ever mentioned Undead Nightmare, the argument comes from Night Folk who are Zombies and not apart of any DLC.

This is from the same interview where the developer straight up call RDR non supernatural and clarify that they just wanted to give it some humour:

Okay? First of all, that's not what was said. They said that they wanted to impose it, which obviously it didn't do due to the aforementioned reasons. Secondly, yeah I'm gonna need a link to that interview and see what developer made that statement because there's more than one developer for the game.

But this isn't the only interview where they clarify that they wanted RDR to feel as realistic as possible but still be fun.

Your intentionally ignoring the context here. This past of the interview literally is about horse riding, which they put great amounts of detail in. I find it very dishonest for you to attempt to use these scans as a way to fit your narrative.


Also this is a straight up lie. They said verbatim "we want it to feel realistic, but we don't necessarily want it to be realistic." This is about the game feeling realistic, not it being realistic.

which explains why all the supernatural stuff are just minor Easter Eggs that don't reflect in the actual main narrative of the game.

Yet this is never stated and I've already debunked your "references" Red Dead and GTA are not apart of the same universe, worked on by different Rockstar studios and teams, its been said that all the easter eggs of Rdrd in GTA are literally for the sake of promotions.

Which it's why it wouldn't make sense for them to add a big supernatural super power to the protagonist without ever mentioning or acknowledging said power in the lore or narrative of the work.

Read above. All you've been doing is loosely connection shit that have no real connections, linked a interview that isn't talking about the game as a whole, rather its horse riding mechanics, making up entire scenarios, etc.

It's also important to note that Rockstar straight up says that their games are build based in their previous games (heck they went so far to note how RDR 2 was especially influenced from their previous games.)

This is literally a reference to the gamimg engine. They build their games based off the the engine and gameplay of previous games, furthermore this is only applicable to The Red Dead revolver and Redemption games.

which is why they have so many similar elements and references between them.

Yet the references aren't canon, come from multiple different timelines, etc. The Red dead references are literally stated to be only used to promote Rdrd2 in GTA 5.

so to compare the slow motion mechanics between both games it's perfectly valid and logic as, per the developers own words, they took the good things of the other games.

Again more causation. They took certain elements as inspiration, not that they're exactly the same. Red Dead's Dead-Eye is stated to slow down time itself multiple times, whereas GTA 5 makes it abundantly clear the trio aren't actually slowing down time.

so that along with the fact that it's never acknowledge in lore to be any sort of time alteration supernatural ability.

Sure if you wanna ignore the countless Databook and in game statements.

and it's instead a cognitive ability the characters have thanks to their great skill at certain things (like GTA special abilities)

Yeah no. Arthur was able to copy Dead-Eye, Mike, Trevor and Frankin obtained their shit by years of experience. Your essentially comparing apples to oranges. While we're at it, let's also downgrade everyone from any Rockstar game to what we're shown in Bully bc it's main character is a kid. That's the type of faulty logic your using here.

something that requires less assumptions than say that the protagonists possess an supernatural power never mentioned in lore.

Not really. For my argument no assumptions are being made, I'm using various statements along with the verse having supernatural aspects unlike what you've been claiming.

If you didn't know, drugs can actually affect the cognition of people.

Cool, good thing Arthur isnt taking those certain drugs nor is his medicine described in such a way. This is yet another baseless assumption.

there is actually even an specific type of substances know as cognitive enhancers that boost the cognition of people. Now, said drugs doesn't make people gain the ability to see in slow motion in real life indeed.

My guy that's irrelevant unless you think they were using that shit back in the old west era. Secondly, again the items are never stated to be able to do this so yet again we have even more evidence of you blatantly using baseless assumptions.

but in a game where the developers wanted to make things fun while still feeling realistic it's understable how they would choose to exaggerate their effects to some extent.

This is never stated nor implied, matter of fact the Guidebook makes it very clear this isn't just for fun.

or more specifically exaggerate what those drugs would do with very skilled people. After all, even in this same thread.

Show me any of Arthur's items being stated to slow down the perception of time. If that were the case eveyone in Red Dead would be able to use Dead-Eye by using these items.

@Starter_Pack have also brought a similar phenomenon with how in life-threatening situations time seems to slow down, which can also apply in this case. Because if you didn't know the main intention of the developers with Dead Eye was the player experience, not an supernatural ability that manipulate time itself:

Starter Pack literally agreed with it being time manipulation.


Ultimately your argument is very ignorant of the canonicity of Rockstar Games to one another, misinterpreting what's in the interview, mixing events up (such as saying big foot was in GTA first which isn't the case.), baseless assumptions that are debunked by themselves (Saying items are responsible for slowing down the perception of time whenever that's never stated and contradicted by the fact that this never happens whenever anyone consumes these items.), and blatant misinformation.

 

[LordGinSama]

many already consider the wiki a joke so Ig that giving them another reason to think that it's fine. This is my last post in the thread if it wasn't clear.

Coming from a guy that scales anime novels I find this ironic and hilarious.

 

[LordGinSama]

Grace starts from when the thread is made.

Also, the only votes that count in CRTs are thread mod votes, admin votes and bureau votes.

Ah I see. Would it be fine to apply this then?

 

[KLOL506]

Depends on how many thread mods, admins and bureaucrats agreed with your points. CGM votes don't count in CRTs.

 

[chosen]

Uh 4 pages already. Anyways i agree with everything now if i didn't said it already
Oh btw are the other rdr revisions discussed somewhere? After this is done i would like to try to help With things

 

[LordGinSama]

Depends on how many thread mods, admins and bureaucrats agreed with your points. CGM votes don't count in CRTs.

Got all the names listed in the OP. Right now we got votes for this from Mr Bambu, Starter Pack, Lephyr, Slayer and DDM.

 

[KLOL506]

Reminder that only the votes of Thread Mods, Admins and Bureaus count so...

Agree on Enhanced Senses: 5 - UchihaSlayer, Mr._Bambu, Starter_Pack, LephyrTheRevanchist, DarkDragonMedeus

Agree on ESP: 2 - UchihaSlayer96, LephyrTheRevanchist

Agree on Time Slow: 3 - Mr._Bambu, UchihaSlayer96, LephyrTheRevanchist

Disagree on Enhanced Senses: 0

Disagree on ESP: 1 - Mr._Bambu

Disagree on Time Slow: 1 - DarkDragonMedeus

Neutral on Enhanced Senses: 0

Neutral on ESP: 1 (Maybe) - DarkDragonMedeus (Maybe)

Neutral on Time Slow: 1 - Starter_Pack

We need more votes on ESP and Time Slow.

 

[KLOL506]

Also we have to wait another day even if we do get sufficient votes.

 

[LordGinSama]

Dead Eye: I'm fine with changing it to a limited form of time manip. It does feel off, because the game does have a more grounded setting than most other games, and perhaps some feel as though it cheapens the game to give it this hax: yet, it is Rockstar's words that give evidence to these claims. I see no fault in the logic of the OP.

Mr Bambu doesn't disagree with the time slow.

 

[KLOL506]

Mr Bambu doesn't disagree with the time slow.

I see. I will change the vote count then.

 

[KLOL506]

many already consider the wiki a joke

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we don't care one bit about what those people think and we're not gonna change for them. If they don't like our wiki because of how we do things here, they can just leave, you know.

 

[Dalesean027]

Mr Bambu doesn't disagree with the time slow.

Only agreed to limited tho

 

[KLOL506]

Only agreed to limited tho

Limited Time Manip overall. Time Slow is in a sense, limited Time Manip.

 

[LordGinSama]

Not really seeing how it's limited tbh but yeah fair ig.