Red Dead Revisions part 3: AP

[LordGinSama]

This'll cover everything regarding AP, durability and lifting strength. Speed will be dealt with once the speed feats are properly calculated, luckily for us the AP stuff doesn't really require any calculations due to them being mainly general feats that have been calculated already.

Attack Potency and Durability.

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First things first for Arthur's and John's durability they should receive a "far higher with Dead-Eye." due to Dead-Eye vastly reducing damage done to them when used including headshots.


Secondly Arthur's durability and by extension his AP and SS should be Wall+ for being able to survive tnt blowing up on him without dying. (Keep in mind the feat is already accepted in his profile so it's already accepted, this is just giving it a value.) It does damage him but not to the point of no recovery. A single stick of tnt can fragment a steel wall that's likely reinforced so if anything the yield should be higher but this is a good lowball. Bambu has already calculated the destruction of steel doors this size to be Wall+.


Next best thing would be scaling Arthur above the Legendary Bison, with them being much larger than the IRL counterparts by a significant amount. Arthur can kill the biggest Legendary Bison with 7 strikes with his bare hands so he'd scale above So Arthur should scale above its AP or Durability of 120936.0575 joules, which would be a lowball as this would obviously be bigger than the ones irl.

Arthur is comparable to those who can harm him if not outright stronger than most character in Red Dead.

Lifting strength

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Now this one is a little iffy but from what I've seen his Lifting strength should be bumped to class 5 due to him being able to lift Legendary Animals to skin them, such as the Legendary White Bison which is many times bigger than the average bison. The American Bison can weigh around 400 to 1,270 kilograms (880 to 2,800 pounds) and all 3 of the Legendary Bison are seemingly much bigger than any records of American Bison, most notably the White Legendary Bison which would need to weight more than usual to survive the harsh cold. climate.

Furthermore Arthur is able to keep them perfectly still while they're resisting till his stamina goes out.

 

[Deceived3596]

This seems fine.

 

[Kachon123]

First things first for Arthur's and John's durability they should receive a "far higher with Dead-Eye." due to Dead-Eye vastly reducing damage done to them when used including headshots.

Looks good.

Secondly Arthur's durability and by extension his AP and LS should be Wall+ for being able to survive tnt blowing up on him without dying. (Keep in mind the feat is already accepted in his profile so it's already accepted, this is just giving it a value.)

How does this translate to LS?

Now this one is a little iffy but from what I've seen his Lifting strength should be bumped to class 5 due to him being able to lift Legendary Animals to skin them, such as the Legendary White Bison which is many times bigger than the average bison. The American Bison can weigh around 400 to 1,270 kilograms (880 to 2,800 pounds) and all 3 of the Legendary Bison are seemingly much bigger than any records of American Bison, most notably the White Legendary Bison which would need to weight more than usual to survive the harsh cold. climate.

I'm neutral on this, as he didn't really lift the entire animal's weight in order to skin it. I'd get more input on this part.

Everything else looks good though.

 

[LordGinSama]

How does this translate to LS?

My dumbass meant to type SS instead of LS do I'll edit that real quick.

I'm neutral on this, as he didn't really lift the entire animal's weight in order to skin it. I'd get more input on this part.

Fair but I'd assume he'd still need comparable LS to pull the skin from underneath them. He can also hold Bison still for a short amount of time if that's better to use. John can do the same as well before being overpowered after a stalemate. They only escape after they ruin out of gas.

Everything else looks good though.

Bet thanks for the input

 

[NotoriouSoda]

See like a reasonable upgrade. Will this effect John and Dutch as well as other characters?

 

[LordGinSama]

See like a reasonable upgrade. Will this effect John and Dutch as well as other characters?

Yup since others scale to Arthur.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

See like a reasonable upgrade. Will this effect John and Dutch as well as other characters?

Dutch doesn't have a profile but if someone wants to make a profile on him they could. John and the RDRO protag will be affected though. Landon Ricketts could use a profile if anyone wants to make that, or Red Harlow, but anyway:

Anyways I agree. The different types of ammunation could be noted on the profile too? Something like "Higher with high Velocity rounds, even higher with Express rounds, far higher with explosive rounds."

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Dutch doesn't have a profile but if someone wants to make a profile on him they could. John and the RDRO protag will be affected though. Landon Ricketts could use a profile if anyone wants to make that, or Red Harlow, but anyway:

Anyways I agree. The different types of ammunation could be noted on the profile too? Something like "Higher with high Velocity rounds, even higher with Express rounds, far higher with explosive rounds."

Dutch doesn’t have a profile? Thats crazy considering he’s so prominent in both games lol

 

[Dalesean027]

Secondly Arthur's durability and by extension his AP and LS should be Wall+ for being able to survive tnt blowing up on him without dying. (Keep in mind the feat is already accepted in his profile so it's already accepted, this is just giving it a value.) It does damage him but not to the point of no recovery. A single stick of tnt can fragment a steel wall that's likely reinforced so if anything the yield should be higher but this is a good lowball. Bambu has already calculated the destruction of steel doors this size to be Wall+.

This entire portion is a complete no no, like an insane no no.

A single stick of tnt can fragment a steel wall that's likely reinforced

This doesn't even happen at all in the footage and a full crate of explosives go off with the full frame of one of the cars still being fully intact just on fire.

Secondly Arthur's durability and by extension his AP and SS should be Wall+ for being able to survive tnt blowing up on him without dying. (Keep in mind the feat is already accepted in his profile so it's already accepted, this is just giving it a value.)

This also most certain doesn't work and just because it was on the profile previously doesn't make it right. The explosion itself isn't even big enough for wall+ results and also Arthur is about a full persons height away from said explosion which would significantly tank the results and even then it results in a near death experience for Athur

worse even is that when you're actually holding dynamite or simply drop it at your feet where its actually point blank range Arthur flat out dies instantly with no chance of survival so he most definitely shouldn't be scaling to any form of dynamite.
Also same thing for this justication, all vehicle destruction is still leaves the frames of any box cars entirly intact and you have utterly 0 grounds to assume heavy steel reinforcement on a regular box car in 1899



Otherwise I've got the same issues as Kachon as the LS stuff doesn't really apply to LS from just skinning the animal as he's not really lifting their full weight or violently moving their entire bodies at any decent speed so it doesn't really apply here

 

[Dalesean027]

Okay correction actually I found the scene now



So this is fine for dynamite AP justication this would just need its own calc tho as its not V. Frag nor does it have the same dimensions, regular frag would work tho

But otherwise everything I said still stands

 

[LordGinSama]

This entire portion is a complete no no, like an insane no no.

If you could elaborate first that'd be much appreciated.

This doesn't even happen at all in the footage and a full crate of explosives go off with the full frame of one of the cars still being fully intact just on fire.

Do you mean cut scenes because I'm pretty confused what you mean here given that I linked the literal footage of the clip which is on his profile. I'll address the other points but right now I'm pretty lost with your arguments. I assume you genuinely had a misunderstanding?

 

[Dalesean027]

If you could elaborate first that'd be much appreciated

The entire rest of what I said is the elaboration

Do you mean cut scenes because I'm pretty confused what you mean here given that I linked the literal footage of the clip which is on his profile. I'll address the other points but right now I'm pretty lost with your arguments.

Okay correction actually I found the scene now



So this is fine for dynamite AP justication this would just need its own calc tho as its not V. Frag nor does it have the same dimensions, regular frag would work tho

But otherwise everything I said still stands

 

[LordGinSama]

Okay correction actually I found the scene now



So this is fine for dynamite AP justication this would just need its own calc tho as its not V. Frag nor does it have the same dimensions, regular frag would work tho

But otherwise everything I said still stands

Yeah nah I ain't blind. Occasionally I wear glasses but it's clear that this isn't V fragmenting, it's just normal fragment. After reading this comment it made it realize I should specify what end I was referring to since I was referring to the normal frag end but yeah I can see the confusion.

The entire rest of what I said is the elaboration

Evidently not because you were referring to a completely separate feat then assumed (understable.) that I was referring to Bambu's V frag end. I was referring to the normal frag end.

 

[Vzearr]

Secondly Arthur's durability and by extension his AP and SS should be Wall+ for being able to survive tnt blowing up on him without dying. (Keep in mind the feat is already accepted in his profile so it's already accepted, this is just giving it a value.) It does damage him but not to the point of no recovery. A single stick of tnt can fragment a steel wall that's likely reinforced so if anything the yield should be higher but this is a good lowball. Bambu has already calculated the destruction of steel doors this size to be Wall+.

These aren't close to wall level+. Calculate it and you'll see its probably not even a megajoule.

 

[Dalesean027]

Evidently not because you were referring to a completely separate feat then assumed (understable.) that I was referring to Bambu's V frag end. I was referring to the normal frag end.

Okay you're not getting it, I referred to just about every explosion feat in said videos which none of were wall+ for bambu's blog it assumes the measurements of a regular door but steel which this is not, its notably thinner in fact so it'll need its own calculation.


My other points are also flat out that the dynamite's potency aside Arthur doesn't scale to it at all regardless of anything else

This also most certain doesn't work and just because it was on the profile previously doesn't make it right. The explosion itself isn't even big enough for wall+ results and also Arthur is about a full persons height away from said explosion which would significantly tank the results and even then it results in a near death experience for Athur


worse even is that when you're actually holding dynamite or simply drop it at your feet where its actually point blank range Arthur flat out dies instantly with no chance of survival so he most definitely shouldn't be scaling to any form of dynamite.
Also same thing for this justication, all vehicle destruction is still leaves the frames of any box cars entirly intact and you have utterly 0 grounds to assume heavy steel reinforcement on a regular box car in 1899

 

[LordGinSama]

These aren't close to wall level+. Calculate it and you'll see its probably not even a megajoule.

This is literally wall+. This is by using Bambu's own calc for feats like this, and if we were to calc it you'd get shit like building level. (I've seen the literal calc.)

 

[Vzearr]

This is literally wall+. This is by using Bambu's own calc for feats like this, and if we were to calc it you'd get shit like building level. (I've seen the literal calc.)

You do know Bambu's calculation is for doors that are 2 meters tall, 1 meter wide and 3.34 cm thick right ? The door Arthur exploded isn't even close to those dimensions.

 

[Dalesean027]

This is literally wall+. This is by using Bambu's own calc for feats like this, and if we were to calc it you'd get shit like building level. (I've seen the literal calc.)

Yeah this ain't remotely right man...

 

[LordGinSama]

Okay you're not getting it, I referred to just about every explosion feat in said videos which none of were wall+

My guy you literally used other feats to discredit this one which is entirely different with context.

This also most certain doesn't work and just because it was on the profile previously doesn't make it right.

It's been on the profile for literal years, it's already accepted as a durability feat. Not to say it's not liable to change but in the same token doesn't make it inherently wrong. It's still a feat that's accepted.

The explosion itself isn't even big enough for wall+ results and also Arthur is about a full persons height away from said explosion which would significantly tank the results and even then it results in a near death experience for Athur

first of all that's not remotely true. At 2:40 he literally has the damn thing in his hands at point blank range. Secondly it doesn't need to be as it was already calculated at Wall+, not every usage needs to have a big ass explosion.

You do know Bambu's calculation is for doors that are 2 meters tall, 1 meter wide and 3.34 cm thick right ? The door Arthur exploded isn't even close to those dimensions.

And yet despite this the bloody lad who made the calculation said using it for reference was fine. Apologies but I'm much more inclined to take the words from the person who made the calculation over someone who isn't even the calc group. Furthermore the dimensions of the door are roughly comparable with this one being much thicker. Not sure why your acting like there's a major difference whenever the door here is only slightly shorter, less wide but significantly thicker and the fact that the person who made the calculation said it was fine.

 

[Dalesean027]

It's been on the profile for literal years, it's already accepted as a durability feat. Not to say it's not liable to change but in the same token doesn't make it inherently wrong. It's still a feat that's accepted.

Great and since this CRT is covering AP and dura im bringing up how that svaling is flat out wrong. It being accepted previously doesn't make it right.

first of all that's not remotely true. At 2:40 he literally has the damn thing in his hands at point blank range. Secondly it doesn't need to be as it was already calculated at Wall+, not every usage needs to have a big ass explosion.

Buddy the one in his hand doesn't explode then ine he throws on the ground did, the one in his hand despawned because thats how the game works. So no there's legit not even an explosion there lol.

Also its not calculated as anything it quite literally needs a calculation also flat out ignoring the other bits I said that linked here

My other points are also flat out that the dynamite's potency aside Arthur doesn't scale to it at all regardless of anything else

Bottom line he does not scale to dynamite in any form or fashion

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dalesean and Vzearr both bring up valid points in my eyes.

 

[LordGinSama]

Great and since this CRT is covering AP and dura im bringing up how that svaling is flat out wrong. It being accepted previously doesn't make it right.

You have yet to explain how the scaling is "flat out wrong" without

Buddy the one in his hand doesn't explode then ine he throws on the ground did, the one in his hand despawned because thats how the game works. So no there's legit not even an explosion there lol.

There's literally a stick in his hand which blows up.

Also its not calculated as anything it quite literally needs a calculation also flat out ignoring the other bits I said that linked here.

And as I've pointed out clearly it doesn't need a calculation due to being a standard door destruction feat. Also what other points did I ignore? To my knowledge I haven't ignored anything from you.

Bottom line he does not scale to dynamite in any form or fashion

In your perspective sure. But unfortunately what you personally believe is irrelevant since the darn stick was in his hand and blew up in his hand.

 

[Dalesean027]

Literally just clipped this myself in game


Like be real man

 

[LordGinSama]

Dalesean and Vzearr both bring up valid points in my eyes.

Vzearr is literally ignoring that Bambu the creator of the calc said its fine. The actual calc itself isn't the issue, it's a standard feat and we have a standard feat page for a reason. The scaling on the other hand is a different subject.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You have yet to explain how the scaling is "flat out wrong" without

Neutral on that scaling, though I believe what Dalesean probably wanted to say was inverse square law might need to be taken into account for durability feats like that.

 

[Dalesean027]

Neutral on that scaling, though I believe what Dalesean probably wanted to say was inverse square law might need to be taken into account for durability feats like that.

Exactly what Im saying but even then as shown in the clips I provided dynamite kills instantly at point blank, the clip from OP has him at more than persons length away from the explosion and it nearly killed

 

[LordGinSama]

Literally just clipped this myself in game


Like be real man

This is fair, also did the same thing myself and got the same results. Apologies for using the aforementioned feat, I'll see if I can find anything else. I'll adjust the OP in a second.

 

[LordGinSama]

Dale could you do me a solid and calc the other feats? Such as the Wagon explosion and the various falling feats, those would be the two best feats I can think of in the meantime for durability.

 

[Dalesean027]

This is fair, also did the same thing myself and got the same results. Apologies for using the aforementioned feat, I'll see if I can find anything else. I'll adjust the OP in a second.

All good, glad we're on the same page now as to what I meant.

Vzearr is literally ignoring that Bambu the creator of the calc said its fine. The actual calc itself isn't the issue, it's a standard feat and we have a standard feat page for a reason. The scaling on the other hand is a different subject.

I'd still say make its own calc personally since the dimensions aren't the same as the common feat and as I said its still thinner than standard door thickness, I can try myself

 

[LordGinSama]

I'd still say make its own calc personally since the dimensions aren't the same as the common feat and as I said its still thinner than standard door thickness, I can try myself

From what I recall from my discussion with Clover the door is actually significantly thicker but is slightly shorter and less wide than the door for the common feats.

But yeah you'd need to be playing on a PC and go into editor mode tho. Basically actually calculating this is a major pain in the ass hence why @CloverDragon03 suggested using the common feat instead. Along with Bambu himself saying the dimensions are comparable enough to be used.


Essentially you'll need to play on PC, use editor mode, play till chapter 6 and hope to god you can take a screenshot in time.

 

[Dalesean027]

Nah I already got all I need for the calc actually from the clip

 

[LordGinSama]

Next best thing would probably be the KE / PE of the bigger Legendary Animals. Also Dale what do you think of the roping LS feats? He can keep Bison still with a rope before his stamina runs out.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

There's also things like high speed crashes into rocks/trees and surviving falling off some cliffs, one of which is in a cutscene in chapter 6 against micah (30:25)

 

[LordGinSama]

Tbh I think the drop that Dutch and Arthur fell from would be better than the cliff that Micah and Arthur fell from.

 

[Dalesean027]

Tbh I think the drop that Dutch and Arthur fell from would be better than the cliff that Micah and Arthur fell from.

Get the clip

 

[LordGinSama]

Get the clip

2:50 they hit water but fall a greater distance than the one with Micah.

 

[Vzearr]

Vzearr is literally ignoring that Bambu the creator of the calc said its fine. The actual calc itself isn't the issue, it's a standard feat and we have a standard feat page for a reason. The scaling on the other hand is a different subject.

I don't know if this debate has been dropped yet. But even if the creator of the calc said its fine, he would have to debate with people who disagree with the calc being used for the feat, for this to be applicable to rdr2.

And when he said its fine to use for a reference he may have been talking about the way of calculating it (Imo).

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't know if this debate has been dropped yet.

Yeah it's been dropped but doesn't actually change anything till a calc is made. Anyway that's pretty much irrelevant since he can't survive it without being a few steps away and with Dead-Eye's damage reduction.

 

[Dalesean027]

Done with the feat, I'll blog it and a couple of deadeye ones


Also uh just noticed the speed feats and scaling I called out for being wrong in the deadeye crt are still being used so be sure to take that off the profile

 

[LordGinSama]

Done with the feat, I'll blog it and a couple of deadeye ones.

Much appreciated

Also uh just noticed the speed feats and scaling I called out for being wrong in the deadeye crt are still being used so be sure to take that off the profile

Yeah that'll be dealt with next thread. This one is for AP and such, figured the speed stuff could use its own thread after this one.