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Harming is enough to scale, they dont rlly to have a big fight, in the same way that if my punch can damage someone, my AP scales to their Dura
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Rebirth Superman and World Forger Revision
- Thread starter Teezar
- Start date
- Status
- 922
- 961
That is a fair interpretation, sure. Superman doesn't have to directly kill Alpheus as long as it's clear that he was still a threat/scales. He's also probably talking about more than just Superman destroying his Multiverse, since his specific words are about Superman fighting him.
Anyways, I've missed a lot of this thread. What's happened and what's the current discussion on?
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- #244
Clearly what happened except your trolling now.
After he was defeated,lol.
Plus WF saw him as a constant threat he had to prison him in a pocket universe/galaxy without sunlight,GG.
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- #245
It actually was,all that remained was to replace it with the current one. I don't see any reason why WF will replace an unstable multiverse with the current one.
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I still think it can't scale, but frankly Superman I don't really care.
threat ≠ power
threat ≠ power
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An accusation of trolling is pointless. If my argument is unsound, demonstrate that with a counterargument.
This isn't a response. How exactly are we defining "defeat" here? Plenty of characters have been knocked down, and then got back up and won the fight. In fact, I'd say most big fights between superheroes and villains involve both of them being knocked down repeatedly. WF was not defeated by any stretch of the imagination.
For fear of him interfering the way that he did. This is circular logic.
It was unstable because it hadn't been set into place yet. Once it replaced the current multiverse, it would've been stable.
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M8 I was telling you what was gonna happen on the wiki to Anti-Monitor's tiering and as a consequence World Forger's as well and how we'd need to reverse the scaling later on, making this discussion pointless. Why would I need to form an argument to prove having a discussion is pointless?
"AerrowStorm1 has a point. Alpheus' Multiverse was stable and ready for replacing the current Multiverse so that his reality could be completed as the new main Multiverse, but if the decision has already been made, then there is no point in persisting for now."
AerrowStorm's point: "They don't, since the story makes it clear the multiverse is stable and ready. WF even states that unstable realities go back to the forge while stable ones he sends up to reality. If it was unstable, he wouldn't have been about to replace reality with it"
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You have a point, Doctor Manhattan also saw Superman as a threat due to the multiverse revolving around him and thus having tier 1 plot hax. Unless that's not what you wanted us to apply? In each case I don't think World Forger is aware of the plot armor so Supes doesn't have much else besides power to stop WF.
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If you feel that this discussion is pointless, then you aren't being forced to participate.
I am aware of what Elizio said, this is not Alpheus saying it was stable, this is Elizio and AerrowStorm1 concluding that it was stable based on their reasoning. However, the multiverse wasn't going to be stable until it descended upon the current multiverse and replaced it. This isn't incompatible with what we know from the story.
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Deagonx is using old arguments to say Supes didn't hurt WF and didn't bust the multiverse.
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Why does stability depend on the position of a multiverse?
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- Thread starter
- #253
It's a fact WF was defeated an admitted superman was an enemy/threat to existence after everything and joined the justice league.
In WF case he was defeated and couldn't continue the fight after acknowledging superman,as what superman did to him and saw him as a threat. In this case WF was K.Oed and could no longer continue. Which we all saw he accepted defeated towards the end of that issue.
The kind of interfering will be by battle and not a heart to heart convo,lmao. WF received his Lose well
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CwvSOWeST...m6-ds4kkXna1G9NPAsaC2CHQX5q8YcOTakDayMw=s1600 the multiverse was already stable all that was left was to replace it.
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- #254
They brought scans it was stable unlike
Scans were this was stated please.
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What is the point in making a derogatory comment like "old arguments?" No one had brought up the scans from the editor in this thread, nor had anyone contested Superman's punch. If those arguments were made previously in another thread, it wasn't by me.
Likewise, in character I'm not sure Superman would punch and then destroy a stable multiverse.
The purpose of WF's "masterpiece" was to descend upon the current multiverse and replace it. If World Forger doesn't strike his hammer, this purpose is not executed and the masterpiece falls apart. These weren't whole universes unto themselves, they were unstable replacements meant to take the place of the current 52 universes in the multiverse. We know World Forger was in a rush to get this done, so it could be that unstable realities can achieve stability by merging with/replacing existing stable realities. This process wasn't heavily expanded upon, all we know for sure is that as far as DC is concerned based on the explanation from the editorial staff, WF's multiverse was destroyed because it wasn't cemented, not because Superman punched it.
Likewise, in character I'm not sure Superman would punch and then destroy a stable multiverse.
This isn't an argument.
Yes, he was a threat because he interfered with WF's plans, which was going to attract the ire of the Judges of the Source, who they had no hope of defeating.
There's no evidence he wasn't able to continue to fight, but rather fighting was pointless at this point because his masterpiece had been destroyed.
WF didn't lose a fight, and again, the interference was stopping World Forger from striking his hammer, not killing him or defeating him in a fight.
That scan doesn't seem to work. Can you upload the image elsewhere?
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No, it wasn't.
If you interfere with someone's purpose, you won't be at the same level of power.
And the topic goes back to the same place.
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- #258
Then end this baseless agenda
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Only the discussion on whether Superman scales to World Forger is irrelevant, since World Forger is gonna be downgraded to 2-C, making Superman's current accepted 2-A feat higher than World Forger and thus reversing the scaling. The only discussion worth having is whether Superman's feat is 2-A or not.
That's correct those exact arguments were made in another thread if I'm not mistaken, it's more an observation than a derogatory comment, it basically implies you should at least have read or skimmed through the old threads regarding this issue before commenting.
This is actually a decent argument, like I said one page earlier I'm neutral on the feat. Could you give evidence for it's purpose not being executed resulting in the masterpiece falling apart? World Forger says he has an eye for stable vs unstable universes and that unstable ones go back to the forge meanwhile he ushers stable ones towards reality, as such we can conclude that all universes that he was going to usher towards reality are stable. The unstable --> stable argument is headcanon as far as I am aware. Also wasn't at least one universe (future JL) explicitly stable so he'd be a mass murderer regardless? Also also it's not like Superman had a choice it's either be a mass murderer by doing nothing or by killing everyone yourself. Also also also why would unstable universes not contain life?
Weird for me it works.
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It's the only link I've got but greenshifter already sent it.
Yes
The comics said otherwise.What scans?
He stopped him by defeating him. Which you already agreed
Superman already damaged him,that's the main fact which he said will take time to repair.
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Is the 2-A rating not based on his scaling to World Forger? That is still definitely relevant. The only feat here is knocking down World Forger.
What exactly would've been the conclusion if I had? I still would've made those arguments even if someone had in the past, because they're still relevant. Also, asking someone to sift through potentially dozens of superman threads to find one about this specific feat so that I can be conscious of what arguments were made in the past is rather silly.
It's what the editorial staff at DC said. The notion that Superman directly punched the multiverse is also headcanon.
Even if the end result is the same, I think it's pretty clear that Superman wouldn't directly punch a universe or a multiverse, which is why he punched World Forger, not his masterpiece.
I got the new one he posted to work.
This scan doesn't really support your argument. First, he isn't saying that his masterpiece is fully stable, second, based on his wording what he means by stable is called into question: "Those that might last, I usher towards reality, those I deem unstable, I return to the forge. If there's anything I know, it's what stands a chance and what does not." In this case, it may not be that World Forger and the Editor are referring to the same type as "unstable" in their respective comments. World Forger is talking about the viability of a reality based on what is within it based on peoples fears and dreams, Marino is talking about the cosmological stability of the continuum, at least as far as I can tell.
No, they did not.
I never agreed that he defeated him, I directly refuted it and you had no response. You claimed without evidence that World Forger could not continue.
World Forger said it will take time to repair himself? Is there a scan for that?
If you don't want to discuss this, unfollow the thread.
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I don't get why people doubt Clark scaling to WF. WF literally got a black eye
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If anything, WF scaling to Clark would be more dubious now
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I don't believe that giving a being a black eye makes you scale to their full durabilty. And I think the black eye is kinda questionable, is there a better angle on the black eye? One of his eyes is shut at first when they look at him knocked down, but when he opens it it's not like there's continued discoloration as far as I can tell.
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Look, Black eye is a bruise. How is that not bypassing durability is beyond me.
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- #267
Those that deem unstable he returns to the forge. if the multiverse was unstable he would have sent it to he forge.
Keep the troll up. Cause I don't even know the debate again.
WF was defeated by a single hit,he didn't win or stalemate he lost woefully.
It's my thread and I already ordered it to be closed.
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Is it really that far-fetched to believe that some people don't think giving someone a black eye (again, questionable) doesn't mean you scale to their full durability?
You are literally sidestepping my explanation in order to repeat yourself. What World Forger meant by "unstable" was explained in the scan to mean worlds that were going to survive/had a chance at lasting, not a structurally unstable continuum, which is most likely what Marino was referring to.
Once again, sidestepping the argument to repeat yourself. If you have no response to the argument, simply don't respond. WF was not defeated in battle, once his multiverse crumbled he simply gave up, submitting to what he felt was the inevitable fate of the Judges of the Source coming to destroy them all.
You are misinterpreting the scan. Superman saying "remake your cells" isn't referring to trying to heal damage dealt from the punch, he's talking about his genetic programming that dictates his free will. He said "My cells prohibit me from interfering-"
You posted the thread, sure, but the discussion isn't under your authority, it's a community post.
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- #269
Scans of this
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I read it again and thought I cancelled it. Still forger was damaged and one shotted him.the other justice league members still had time to come and meet him still lying on the ground.
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Both feats were accepted. You have a point though it'll become relevant if you can debunk the multiverse feat. Then again Planck already clarified that he would scale.
You can not know if someone did not fully debunk the arguments you use in the past, if you do not at least read the thread where Superman was initially upgraded for instance. There is a search bar after all, that said this suggestion is more for people making the CRT although I'd still recommend it for people who are just commenting especially if it is to actively request a change rather than to clarify some stuff.
You have a point, it's kinda unclear to me, you could argue his shockwaves did it though.
I mean come on if the end result is the same then the moral implications are the same as well.
Good point.
All in all I'm neutral but I might lean towards agreeing with you on the multiverse destruction feat.
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A black eye is most definitely scaling to bypassing durability. You don't need to leave them in critical condition to scale.
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@Deagonx This is also a good point though, why didn't the multiverse just return to the forge?
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I mean even if it were half it'd still be the same tier...
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...literally your scan?
In what way was Forger damaged? And again you are repeating yourself by spamming "he one shotted him." World Forger stayed lying on the ground because he had given up, knowing that without his multiverse they were doomed, not because he was physically incapable.
I have debunked the multiverse feat. The DC editorial staff rejected that notion.
Sure, in theory, but the fact is that in character Superman likely wouldn't have done it directly without pause.
Very well. As I've said, I don't agree but if those are the standards of the wiki I'll defer to them.
As I explained above, what World Forger says in that scan, in terms of stability, are worlds that he think will last which can contribute to a "justice formation" good enough to fool the judges. It's not about actual universes which can't sustain themselves structurally, but rather which realities are fit to be in the multiverse. What Andrew Marino most likely meant was the former, structurally unsound which needed to descend upon the multiverse to cement.
I also don't think that a black eye is half of someone's durability. I get that the word infinity is involved, so any fraction is going to be considered infinity, but that isn't how it works in practice.
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bro deagon stop being a rat, superman blatantly gave him a brutal punch and a black eye.
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like affecting the world forger and giving him a black eye is not enough to scale? lmfao the mans literally coughing in pain
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Does it matter though, like regardless of the multiverse being stable or not, Superman is a mass murderer?
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First, that kind of approach isn't helpful. I get that you don't like the argument I'm making, but it serves nothing and no one to start throwing out insults.
Second, again I question this notion of him having a "black eye." He has his eye closed when they first look at him, but there's no discoloration or anything, which is what is characteristic of a black eye.
Third, no, I don't think giving someone a black eye means you scale to their durability, but as I said before, if those are the wiki standards then I accept that the criteria has likely been met.
Second, again I question this notion of him having a "black eye." He has his eye closed when they first look at him, but there's no discoloration or anything, which is what is characteristic of a black eye.
Third, no, I don't think giving someone a black eye means you scale to their durability, but as I said before, if those are the wiki standards then I accept that the criteria has likely been met.
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Sure, we could sit here and conclude that philosophically there is no tangible difference in terms of loss of life, but yes, in a comic book story those two decisions would absolutely be distinct in terms of Superman's characterization. Stopping World Forger from using the multiverse to replace the current one, vs actually destroying the multiverse himself.
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