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Rebirth Superman and World Forger Revision

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Those that might last, I usher towards reality,
In this case the multiverse was already ushered to reality.
those I deem unstable, I return to the forge
The multiverse was clearly stable as he had even imprisoned every villain in it.
World Forger stayed lying on the ground because he had given up,
He laid there based on the damage he took he never said cause he give up.
knowing that without his multiverse they were doomed
Scans of this.
The DC editorial staff rejected that notion.
Its even from an editor,I get can you an author scans that proves low 1-C superman but i will leave that as this thread is pointless now.
 
In this case the multiverse was already ushered to reality.
Right, that's my point. The concept of stability in the context of Alpheus discussing his role in the World Forge, and in the explanation given by Marino, are referring to different things. World Forger is speaking on long-term viability as it pertains to his plans to trick the Judges of the Source into not deleting the multiverse. That's not what Marino is talking about when he says they were unstable and crumbled when WF failed to cement them.

He laid there based on the damage he took he never said cause he give up.
You are pulling this from thin air.

Scans of this.
The scans of this have already been posted. It's literally what he says right after he is punched, that Superman has doomed them all.
 
Can everybody here please stop bickering with each other so we can get something constructive done here?

The issues here seem to be the following:

1) Should we keep and rewrite the second (currently removed) note that we just added to the Post-Flashpoint Superman page, and if so, in what way?

2) Since the World Forger's new multiverse was present within the 6th Dimension, does that mean that Superman almost punched him out at his "1-A" peak, or did the same 2-A standards apply as usual, since it was still a regular universe they were present in?

3) Since the World Forger's in-universe 2-A manifestation form might be downgraded to 2-C, should we do so with Superman as well, given that the multiverse in question only had 52 universes?

4) Or should we downgrade sundip Superman to Low 2-C, given that the editor said that he only destroyed a single universe, and the rest was a chain reaction? This would earn us a lot of attacks and slander from angry DC fanboys though.
 
I'll give my thoughts on all of the above in a few hours because I'm busy right now, but I do agree that people need to chill out and that those are the most important things that should be discussed.
 
Here is the removed footnote:

 
1) Should we keep and rewrite the second (currently removed) note that we just added to the Post-Flashpoint Superman page, and if so, in what way?
This is the note as it stands:

after an unknown number of sun dips (Destroyed the World Forger's masterpiece, his new multiverse, which was intended to replace the local Multiverse of 52 universes, and also knocking out The World Forger himself, leaving him on the ground, coughing and with a bloody black eye [1])

In my opinion, I think it is best to trust the editor that Superman was not directly responsible for destroying WF's masterpiece, and that it should merely be a discussion of how the WF punch scales him. It seems that per wiki standards, he is fit to scale to WF.

2) Since the World Forger's new multiverse was present within the 6th Dimension, does that mean that Superman almost punched him out at his "1-A" peak, or did the same 2-A standards apply as usual, sine it was still a regular universe they were present in?
I think the latter, because whatever realm they are in is expressly described as physical, saying that Clark was moving so fast that it would take light hours to reach him.

3) Since the World Forger's in-universe 2-A manifestation form might be downgraded to 2-C, should we do so with Superman as well, given that the multiverse in question only had 52 universes?
Yes, IMO, because Superman's 2-A is a direct scaling to WF.

4) Or should we downgrade sundip Superman to Low 2-C, given that the editor said that he only destroyed a single universe, and the rest was a chain reaction? This would earn us a lot of attacks and slander from angry DC fanboys though.
More specifically, the editor said that the lack of the hammer striking was what destroyed universe. Superman never attacked a universe directly. And I agree that downgrades of any kind tend to incite outrage amongst the fans. I think it's really frustrating, because I'm a huge DC fan and really do love these stories, which is the main reason I don't want to see them misrepresented as a means to win battleboard matchups.
 
I mean accuracy is better than biases
Yes, accuracy is obviously most important, but it also isn't fun when they start hate-campaigns against us for trying to do our jobs, especially if they recruit big YouTubers to join in.

I suppose that it comes with the territory, and that we have to try to ignore it though.
 
2) Since the World Forger's new multiverse was present within the 6th Dimension, does that mean that Superman almost punched him out at his "1-A" peak, or did the same 2-A standards apply as usual, since it was still a regular universe they were present in?
Regular 2A(scaling to world forger)
 
Anyway, can somebody link to the World Forger downgrade thread please? I seem to have forgotten about it.
 
2) Since the World Forger's new multiverse was present within the 6th Dimension, does that mean that Superman almost punched him out at his "1-A" peak, or did the same 2-A standards apply as usual, since it was still a regular universe they were present in?
I’ve just gotten confirmation from Nia that he did in fact almost punch out true state WF... sigh. I’ll see if I can get the evidence

Also the WF’s new multiverse would still be 2-A^2 in size as currently (probably) accepted from both Oliver’s and Princeofthemorning’s blogs. So in-multiverse WF getting downgraded doesn’t correlate to the size of his own multiverse.
 
I’ve just gotten confirmation from Nia that he did in fact almost punch out true state WF... sigh. I’ll see if I can get the evidence
Even if its true,people will see it as an outlier or won't still agree anyways,so 2A is still better anyways.....and the fact DC comics is still on going,plus this new infinite frontier arc can make explain more on DC cosmology,like death metal.
 
Even if its true,people will see it as an outlier or won't still agree anyways,so 2A is still better anyways...
Accuracy is important, not what people think. It’s just a boomtube-like amp, whether we make a key for it or not is up to Ant basically since it’s a notability issue.
 
Well, I prefer help to decide that sort of issue from the knowledgeable members that I usually call upon.
 
They're essentially considered equals are they not? In terms of tier at least.
It is just the COIE version of the Anti-Monitor that is being downgraded.
 
Personally, I that we should wait until the Anti-Monitor Revision thread is done, since the World Forger might or not be downgraded to 2-C so that it will be much easier to scale Superman (sun dips) to him. That's my opinion.
 
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Personally, I that we should wait until the Anti-Monitor Revision thread is done, since the World Forger might or not be downgraded to 2-C so that it will be much easier to scale Superman (sun dips) to him. That's my opinion.
Not exactly since a rebirth key might be added for the Anti-Monitor and the Monitor scaling or not to their classic versions.
Okay. Would other knowledgeable members be willing to help us with the Anti-Monitor scaling thread then? I would appreciate the help.
 
Yeah postponing this thread is probably not a bad idea. If need-be I can make a new thread for the sixth dimension stuff, for now everything depends on that other Anti-Monitor thread anyways.
 
We do not have the available time and sufficient information right now.
Why can't we just do all 1 at time?then evaluate them together? Won't that be better?
I gave firestorm a rebirth thread he said you guys were still busy compiling some. But anyways you guys have here for years. Who am I to talk.
 
Why can't we just do all 1 at time?then evaluate them together? Won't that be better?
I gave firestorm a rebirth thread he said you guys were still busy compiling some. But anyways you guys have here for years. Who am I to talk.
A big DC revision is planned to properly scale the characters.
 
We do not know. We are making quite a lot of preparations, but some of the people who help us out have been absent at times, due to schoolwork or otherwise, so things have proceeded a bit slowly.
 
The editors actually explained this feat. Superman's punch didn't destroy the Multiverse itself, it simply knocked down World Forger, preventing him from striking his hammer to the anvil, at which point his masterpiece faded away instead of descending upon the existing multiverse. It's a non-feat.
I brought this point up in the thread where this was getting discussed. I personally found the feat to be vague in the comic, and in that case, if the editor is clarifying the feat without contradicting the primary material, then it should be fine to use imo.

Or should we downgrade sundip Superman to Low 2-C, given that the editor said that he only destroyed a single universe, and the rest was a chain reaction? This would earn us a lot of attacks and slander from angry DC fanboys though.
I don't think he even destroyed one universe if you're going with that interpretation. And the fanboys being angry is not a reason for anything. I don't know why you keep including these reasons in big revisions. We are doing this to be accurate, not to please the fanboys. And no matter what you do, people will going to be angry at you regardless, because some of them will be thinking it's wank, and others, downplay.
 
The issues here seem to be the following:

1) Should we keep and rewrite the second (currently removed) note that we just added to the Post-Flashpoint Superman page, and if so, in what way?
The notes about why he scales to the Forger/it not being and outlier, as well as the one for not being amped, can be there and unchanged. The reasoning for it not being 1-A should be something along the lines of "While technically still in the 6th Dimension, Superman and the Justice League members were still in a Multiverse, so their size and powers wouldn't be changed". This is pretty rough around the edges, but I hope my point in it is understood.
2) Since the World Forger's new multiverse was present within the 6th Dimension, does that mean that Superman almost punched him out at his "1-A" peak, or did the same 2-A standards apply as usual, since it was still a regular universe they were present in?
Yeah, it should be the 2-A standards. Like, DC's cosmology is High 1-A or something, and a Universe is in DC. Doesn't mean the Universe within it is the same dimensional tier. Although, I would like to hear out Green's argument for 1-A he apparently has heard of.
3) Since the World Forger's in-universe 2-A manifestation form might be downgraded to 2-C, should we do so with Superman as well, given that the multiverse in question only had 52 universes?
What suggests it was only 52 Universes? Isn't the DC Multiverse size still at 2-A here? But anyways, if World Forger is downgraded to 2-C, Superman scaling to him would only be 2-C, yes. So, we likely should wait for the Anti-Monitor downgrade threads and other threads to end before progressing here.
4) Or should we downgrade sundip Superman to Low 2-C, given that the editor said that he only destroyed a single universe, and the rest was a chain reaction? This would earn us a lot of attacks and slander from angry DC fanboys though.
I don't think the Editor's view is consistent with the story. As pointed out above, the Forger returns unstable Universes to the forge, and Alpheus says he was almost done, to the point where he was swinging the anvil. Forger also specifically says you destroyed it, so I don't think we can say it was a nonfeat like some suggested. However, if it is proven to be most likely Low 2-C (which I'm open to), other people's opinions shouldn't matter. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I know people who think the feat isn't even Planetary, so they'd probably still be mad with a Low 2-C rating, just like how people think it's 1-A would. So, accuracy should definitely matter more, and if people offsite disagree, it really shouldn't matter.

TL;DR: I think it should still be 2-A, as Forger specifically says Superman destroyed it, and he only was using stable Universes. However, if it's proven otherwise, people's thoughts on it being downplay shouldn't matter. Him scaling to Alpheus should be fine, but we should wait for the Anti-Monitor thread to end before basing a decision on that. Lastly, the notes for it not being an outlier or being amped by things besides the suns can stay, but the one for it not being 1-A should be rewritten.

Sorry if this wasn't written very clearly, I was able to pop on here for a moment to make this commend. I'll be back in around an hour to say more/respond to things. Though, I do think the thread should be temporarily closed due to the Anti-Monitor thread going on.
 
What suggests it was only 52 Universes? Isn't the DC Multiverse size still at 2-A here?
World Forger explains that the multiverse used to be infinite, but was then reduced to 52. Perpetua mentions the number as 52 often in the story as well.

7356018-monitorrace4.png


I don't think the Editor's view is consistent with the story. As pointed out above, the Forger returns unstable Universes to the forge
I think it is. I explained this in another comment, but Forger's meaning regarding unstable is a bit different than what Andrew Marino most likely meant. World Forger is referring to the long term viability of the universes, what will last and what wont. That's not what Marino means, he's saying that until WF strikes his anvil for these universes to replace the current multiverse, they are unstable structurally.

Forger also specifically says you destroyed it, so I don't think we can say it was a nonfeat like some suggested.
His actions destroyed it, certainly.
 
I don't think he even destroyed one universe if you're going with that interpretation. And the fanboys being angry is not a reason for anything. I don't know why you keep including these reasons in big revisions. We are doing this to be accurate, not to please the fanboys. And no matter what you do, people will going to be angry at you regardless, because some of them will be thinking it's wank, and others, downplay.
Yes. Agreed. My apologies.
 
Anyway, as Deagonx mentioned, the local multiverse, that I think the World Forger was replacing, only had 52 universes at this time.
 
Yeah, it should be the 2-A standards. Like, DC's cosmology is High 1-A or something, and a Universe is in DC. Doesn't mean the Universe within it is the same dimensional tier. Although, I would like to hear out Green's argument for 1-A he apparently has heard of.
To give a short summary the Galaxy Superman is in that is outside of everything, is literally outside of everything. There’s no “regular multiverse” in the sixth dimension since it’s all made out of pure possibility. The not being able to exist in the sixth dimension isn’t a madness problem since Superman doesn’t go mad from seeing Quantum Zealots who are above 5D imps. Mxy used his full power to make the portal to the 6th dimension and stated even he himself couldn’t exist there. The league probably can exist there due to Alpheus altering the portal. Alpheus also says he can’t exist on the same plane of reality as Batman. In short the multiverse you see in the sixth dimension is way bigger than the regular multiverse similar to how Apokolips is way bigger than the multiverse and it is where Alpheus’ true form exists, who is 1-A.
 
The realm they are in clearly isn't metaphysical as Superman flew through suns to get amped. Likewise it was said that "it would take light hours to catch up with him" which means there's both space and time, as we understand them, and physics at play.
 
Please show evidence for this. Also, "countless" is just 2-B.
This is the scan.

Lois Lane (Alpheus' Multiverse) explains that she was born on one of Alpheus's first attempts (utopian universe) at a justice formation and that she saw him create countless universes where she and her team tried everything save but in vain.

To my understanding, Alpheus created countless universes but it wasn't all these realities that matched his design and were destroyed since Lois Lane stated that they tried to save everyone, but in each attemps, they have failled. The universes that matched his design survived and were part of the 52 utopian universes of Apheus' Multiverse.
 
The realm they are in clearly isn't metaphysical as Superman flew through suns to get amped. Likewise it was said that "it would take light hours to catch up with him" which means there's both space and time, as we understand them, and physics at play.
Superman also literally states he transcends imagination during the feat though. The sphere of the gods also looks physical for it’s inhabitants while actually being metaphysical. Isn’t there a lot in the comic also implying the metaphysicality of it all? Those suns could also be 1-A suns, again it really just seems to be where true form world forger lives and where his forge is located I guess.

Oh btw Nia also told me that the multiverse WF created contained their own New Gods... which is currently applied on his page, as such if we accept the Superman destroying the multiverse feat as valid it would be an at least low 1-C feat.

Also the amount of timelines would still be infinite in the multiverse so Post-Crisis till present the multiverse has always been infinite in DC.
 
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