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Real Life Big Animals CRT

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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
I've downgraded big dogs. However I'm seeing some conflicting answers on different online discussion forums on whether a human can beat a wolf with their bare hands. Having some doubts on the appropriate rating for wolves and kangal dogs. And hyenas since they're far heavier built than wild dogs.

Do they have grounds for being 9-C or is 10-A better?
Click to expand...
I personally think that 10-A seems better, but I am not a very good person to ask.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
I've downgraded big dogs. However I'm seeing some conflicting answers on different online discussion forums on whether a human can beat a wolf with their bare hands. Having some doubts on the appropriate rating for wolves and kangal dogs. And hyenas since they're far heavier built than wild dogs.

Do they have grounds for being 9-C or is 10-A better?
Click to expand...
If you ask me, 10-A for the wolf is better since it's strikes are usually with it's bite, though I like to see contrary or if one can fight without it's sharp stuff. I'll try & look up if there's evidence for the wolf's raw strength, I may make a blog on it. There's a list on wolf attacks on wikipedia & I read the list from 1300s to the 2000s & 2010s in a reading session.

I'll read up on the other dogs & hyenas tomorrow.

What do we make of the KE feats of black bears?
A black bear is stated to bust through a wall "like the kool-aid man" to escape a house. 2 black bears ran & crashed into each other with their heads in the lake tahoe basin.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
I think 9-B durability seems to be justifiable since they're much more robustly built than big cats too. Idk about their paw swipes though.
Click to expand...
One source says 520 lbf, though you can find feats & statements on black bear's swipe strength. My sandbox on the black bear is below the calculation sections on the same blog & it’s striking feats are causing wilts, & punching through a windshield while it's stated that they can one hit kill deer.
 
Hyenas are likely to be 10-A since they're adapted to running & has historically prevented humans from crossing Beringia, the latter having a lifestyle comparable to modern athletes.

Dingos typically strike with their bite & have been known to kill & injure human children, sheep, & hunt kangaroos & wallabies. They pursue small game. Although they've eaten animals bigger than themselves, they're pack animals that can chase kangaroos & has neck bites as one of their tactics, they don't really hunt adult cattle or buffalo. They're quite small & light compared to an average man. I'm not sure about the 10-A rating, but I'm more inclined to say 10-B.

Kangals seem to be comparable weight to humans, reach superhuman speeds, & can fend off wolves. No wonder they're guard dogs against wolves. 10-A

African Wild Dogs can run 41 mph or 44 mph, & is lighter & smaller in length compared to the average human. They hunt in packs cooperatively to take down animals larger than themselves like sheep & avoid+lose against lions. Sounds comparable to the other dogs of similar weight/size. I've read this instance of a boy dying from a pack, & that's it... 10-B for being heavier than the Dingo.
 
We have to review the real world versus fights on which ones to keep and which ones to remove too, because it's not as simple as "stronger = stomp" as the real world is more nuanced than that.

Komodo Dragon vs Pit Bull (dragon won): I removed this fight because it feels like a stomp to me. The dragon is much larger, stronger, and has venom. I don't see under what conditions can the pit bull harm the dragon at all.

African Wild Dog vs Wolf (wolf won): Wolves are larger than African Wild Dogs, however the strength gap is small enough for it not to be a stomp. African Wild Dogs are indeed capable of taking down prey far larger than itself, but a wolf is a carnivore capable of defending itself as well. I'm not sure how the wild dog will be able to compete with the wolf though since they seem to be similar animals but the latter has all the advantages. Not a stomp, but I'm not sure if this is a fair fight.

Komodo Dragon vs Wolf (wolf won): I think this one is fine to keep. The thread acknowledged the dragon's superior strength, but wolves can win this fight through their superior skill/speed and can kill the dragon by a quick bite to the neck. The dragon's wincons would probably be to land a heavy hit with its tail or bite it with venom.

Wolf vs Chimpanzee (wolf won): I think this is fine. They have both been downgraded to 10-A and strong men have fought wolves to varying results in real life.

Tiger vs Lion (tiger won): Happened in real life, definitely fine.

Tiger vs Grizzly Bear (bear won): Same.

Leopard vs Jaguar (jaguar won): Shouldn't be a stomp, but jaguars are pretty clearly stronger.

4 Chimps vs 1 Gorilla (chimps won): Pretty interesting matchup, probably fine.

Bull vs Draft Horse (bull won): As said in the thread, a good ram by the bull will probably kill the horse as they can kill tigers and bears. Horse has a bit better manoeuvrability and can harm the bull with its kicks, so I guess it's not a stomp.

Cow vs Central European Boar (boar won): Cow's advantages are superior strength and accuracy, boar's advantages are agility and piercing damage, I think it's a good fight.

White Rhinoceras vs American Bison (rhino won): Rhino is larger and has a sharp horn. Might not be a stomp, but I'm not sure how the bison would even harm the rhino? A smaller rhino would probably be a fairer fight with the bison.

Grizzly Bear vs Hippopotamus (hippo won): I don't think the bear stands a chance at all against the hippo. Might be a stomp.

Grizzly Bear vs Polar Bear (polar bear won): Fine

Elephant vs Rhinoceras (elephant won): Happens in real life and the elephant is definitely the one with the advantage, but the rhino has wincons via being faster and having a sharp horn so I think it's fine to keep.
 
Agree with all of your statements, though the hippo v bear one is more close to Hippo since their thick skin can casually take lion claws, I can link the vids if you request. Though unless if I can compare the skin thickness to length of the claws of bear to hippo teeth length, I'll say that the bear’s wincon is to outlast the hippo by making it suffer more cut & bite wounds. A speed equalized match I'd argue would be more unfair due to the weight advantage of the hippo & would make the bear’s wincon less likely despite it's intelligence. I don't think the grizzlies or any bear has fought & won against a hippo, which makes this match more one-sided.

Pit-bull is fairly small, equalizing speed just makes the match even more one-sided due to the komodo dragon's strength.

That's all I have to say for now, I read the threads & edit my 3 bear sandboxes accordingly.

Being slightly faster than a stronger opponent is more optimal & fair, so I presume equalizing speed isn't everything.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Yeah I meant the hippo would pretty easily beat the bear, I was more so questioning can the bear win at all
Click to expand...
Hit a weak spot that would be lethal, out last the hippo by cutting it hard & deep enough to exhaust it, incapacitate then kill it via swipes to the legs & then carefully to the head & neck.

These are wincons an intelligent & creative person can think of. Knowing the bear's tactics, hippo’s dura & current speed, the match seems one-sided.

TL;DR Hippo wins by virtue of fatness & thiccness too easily. Bear has a very rare chance of winning no that its no longer swift
 
Looking at Wikipedia, it seems that while in the earlier linked article the bull beat the bear, there have been cases historically where bears snap the necks of bulls through raw strength and not teeth, and one case where a bear apparently threw a bull, paw swiped it into submission and buried it to death. Saw someone claim on Quora that bears can smash bull skulls but I can't find any source on that.

Might support a 9-B rating.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Looking at Wikipedia, it seems that while in the earlier linked article the bull beat the bear, there have been cases historically where bears snap the necks of bulls through raw strength and not teeth, and one case where a bear apparently threw a bull, paw swiped it into submission and buried it to death. Saw someone claim on Quora that bears can smash bull skulls but I can't find any source on that.

Might support a 9-B rating.
Click to expand...
Yee. That's the same article where I found how bears can hurt bulls with their strikes. Usually some of this will go into LS but ok.
 
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I trust your sense of judgement here. Thank you for helping out.

However, please remember that giving + signs after statistics (Street level+ for example) require accepted calculations to scale from.
 
Antvasima said:
I trust your sense of judgement here. Thank you for helping out.

However, please remember that giving + signs after statistics (Street level+ for example) require accepted calculations to scale from.
Click to expand...
I've been planning to do a calculation on the the tiger, gray wolf & lion's GPE due to them having feats of leaping a distance into the air, I could do them today.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
African Wild Dog vs Wolf (wolf won): Wolves are larger than African Wild Dogs, however the strength gap is small enough for it not to be a stomp. African Wild Dogs are indeed capable of taking down prey far larger than itself, but a wolf is a carnivore capable of defending itself as well. I'm not sure how the wild dog will be able to compete with the wolf though since they seem to be similar animals but the latter has all the advantages. Not a stomp, but I'm not sure if this is a fair fight.

Leopard vs Jaguar (jaguar won): Shouldn't be a stomp, but jaguars are pretty clearly stronger.

White Rhinoceras vs American Bison (rhino won): Rhino is larger and has a sharp horn. Might not be a stomp, but I'm not sure how the bison would even harm the rhino? A smaller rhino would probably be a fairer fight with the bison.

Grizzly Bear vs Hippopotamus (hippo won): I don't think the bear stands a chance at all against the hippo. Might be a stomp.
Click to expand...
So should any of these 4 fights be removed?

And for the wild boar we currently have 3 keys of different species. What ratings should each be changed to?
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
So should any of these 4 fights be removed?
Click to expand...
For me the definition of a stomp on a thread depends on the people & the power gap between 2 characters. The big question is how big? A fight where strength solely matters & one opponent can one-shot is most definitely a stomp. Speed-blitzing & hax also stomps. In 3 of these cases the other opponent has no chance of winning & barely has a chance to defend themselves, basically an insta-win or overwhelming advantage over the other opponent to an unknown degree to where the opponent has no chance of winning. There's wincons based off of chance, intelligence &/or striking/exploiting weaknesses rather than a character winning absolutely.

In real life things are different though some of the intuitions still apply. There have been people that survived attacks from 9-B animals & hits from trains, so there's not always a one-shot.

The first 2 fights don't have that big of a stomp gap. The 3rd match's wincon for the Bison is out last the rhino, hit/cut something vital, or topple the rhino & incap it but I'm not sure how in character it would be for the bison to do any of these things. The Bear v. Hippo match isn't completely one-sided, Grizzlies can be high-balled into Class 5 LS. Knowing their tactics, their wincon of out lasting the hippo & scratching it is more likely, though their thicc skin makes them hard to do notable piercing damage unless you have the teeth & bite of a hippo.

Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
And for the wild boar we currently have 3 keys of different species. What ratings should each be changed to?
Click to expand...
For the ones that have horns, they should keep their KE, I haven't read too much on them.
 
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Slowly going through prehistoric animals, many statistics seem to be overexaggerated. I downgraded the obvious ones, but a few ones I want to bring up:

Gigantopithecus: Any source for the statement that they can kill tigers and leopards and hence their 9-B rating? I'm not the most knowledgeable on this era of prehistoric animals but most people on online debate forums seem to think modern bears and big cats can defeat this giant ape.

Dire Wolf (Epicyon scales): I question the claim that they could have directly competed with sabre-tooth tigers given their significantly smaller stature. They do compete for food but wouldn't it be more akin to a lion-hyena relationship?

Haast's eagle: I have doubts on it being 9-C given how it's not very heavy and its claws play an important role in its hunting.

Moa: 9-B kinetic energy but definitely not 9-B physical durability. Any ideas on it?

Dinosaurs in general: I downgraded Velociraptor, but in general I'm honestly not sure how to give them non-KE ratings. Given how bears are 9-B, I suppose all dinosaurs over a tonne should reliably be 9-B (not the best comparison, but just an approximation), so I guess it's just the lighter dinosaurs that need revising.
 
Here is a new page that may need to be inspected:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tiger Shark (Real World)

Tiger sharks are among the most dangerous sharks to humans. They rank second in shark attacks, only behind the great white shark. Tiger sharks typically reach lengths of 3.25 to 4.25 meters (10 ft 8 in to 13 ft 11 in) and weigh around 175 to 635 kg (386 to 1400 lb), although some females...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Slowly going through prehistoric animals, many statistics seem to be overexaggerated. I downgraded the obvious ones, but a few ones I want to bring up:

Gigantopithecus: Any source for the statement that they can kill tigers and leopards and hence their 9-B rating? I'm not the most knowledgeable on this era of prehistoric animals but most people on online debate forums seem to think modern bears and big cats can defeat this giant ape.

Dire Wolf (Epicyon scales): I question the claim that they could have directly competed with sabre-tooth tigers given their significantly smaller stature. They do compete for food but wouldn't it be more akin to a lion-hyena relationship?

Haast's eagle: I have doubts on it being 9-C given how it's not very heavy and its claws play an important role in its hunting.

Moa: 9-B kinetic energy but definitely not 9-B physical durability. Any ideas on it?

Dinosaurs in general: I downgraded Velociraptor, but in general I'm honestly not sure how to give them non-KE ratings. Given how bears are 9-B, I suppose all dinosaurs over a tonne should reliably be 9-B (not the best comparison, but just an approximation), so I guess it's just the lighter dinosaurs that need revising.
Click to expand...
I trust your sense of judgement, but am not a good person to ask. Are there other knowledgeable members that somebody knows of that we can summon here?
 
Antvasima said:
Here is a new page that may need to be inspected:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tiger Shark (Real World)

Tiger sharks are among the most dangerous sharks to humans. They rank second in shark attacks, only behind the great white shark. Tiger sharks typically reach lengths of 3.25 to 4.25 meters (10 ft 8 in to 13 ft 11 in) and weigh around 175 to 635 kg (386 to 1400 lb), although some females...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
As the guy who made the page, I had a hard time trying to find a good statistic for its bite force. I even ran into a statistic that was just a straight rip from an article's statistic on the Bull Shark's bite force and was like "Nope! Not pulling the grenade on that one..!" I can remove that part if need be.
 
I was more thinking that it seems odd for the tiger shark to have a lower durability than striking strength. The page seems fine otherwise.
 
I do not think so, but do not remember well.
 
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I tried to look up on their physical strength, & what I got is that their tail is used like a propeller in the water. At their weight, the crocodile's tail can generate force at least in class 1, by up to class 5 LS range. Alligators generates force in peak human LS range. Their tails have been known to propell them out of the water & alligators can knock people over.

An alligator casually swam fine even with a knife to it’s head.

Though with all the feats out of the way, would an alligator still be able to kill a boar or black bear without it's teeth? Would a crocodile still be able to take down a 9-B animal without it's teeth?
 
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