Re Zero Discussion Thread: Season 3 is Real

[VortechsTG]

Upon rereading the chapter, actually, I think you're right. I misinterpreted this. I took the original ending of Madelyn's named chapter to be purposely misleading, as Tappei often is, but I no longer believe that.

The narration earlier in the phase 5 chapter makes it clear there are clouds in the sky before Balleroy ever starts ascending to the sky and before Madelyn starts stirring but I guess she just went back to gathering them up immediately after Garf dispelled them.

I don't exactly have visuals to work with for this...

I still stand by this though. We don't have perfect visuals but we have to work with what we've got and what we've got completely and totally contradicts the values used in the calculation.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I am of the opinion Garf did clear the clouds, but in terms of how to scale Vollachia itself, idk.

Not sure if we can use that world map from that one Re Zero game.

 

[VortechsTG]

I am of the opinion Garf did clear the clouds, but in terms of how to scale Vollachia itself, idk.

Not sure if we can use that world map from that one Re Zero game.

I think it's better than arbitrarily assigning Vollachia a value that would imply it is larger than all of the other countries combined.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

True, found the map on witch cult

 

[Zabazab]

I'll get a ratio from that weird mobile game map then, and readjust the clouds.

 

[Zabazab]

True, found the map on witch cult

The Tigracy river just stops halfway through the world

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This image is clearer.

 

[Epiccheev]

The Tigracy river just stops halfway through the world

What a Tisgrace.

 

[VortechsTG]

There's still a question of who even scales to this cause Mezo has bodied some of the strongest divine generals and has only lost to Garfiel with help and buffed Cecilus. Both of whom have no other showings against other opponents yet. It might literally just be Garf, Mezo, and the top tiers who already scale above this anyway.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

It doesn't scale to Mezo normal stats, which would be like 7-A, x (whatever this feat comes out to) at full power. Garfiel would have like Garou stats, 7-A, x with accelerated development.

Yea, kinda iffy who even scales, Garfiel being on the level on transcendents ie Halibel and Ceci, seems very iffy though.

 

[VortechsTG]

It doesn't scale to Mezo normal stats, which would be like 7-A, x (whatever this feat comes out to) at full power. Garfiel would have like Garou stats, 7-A, x with accelerated development.

Yea, kinda iffy who even scales, Garfiel being on the level on transcendents ie Halibel and Ceci, seems very iffy though.

I was thinking it would presumably scale to Mezo's normal stats since Garf punched it and it remained conscious but it's controlled remotely so I guess it's a matter of course it wouldn't get knocked out. It still couldn't move at all..

Halibel very blatantly doesn't scale to this imo. He struggled with Eugard and Valgren Cecilus is a bit less clear but there's no point of comparison so we can't say he does.

 

[VortechsTG]

Wait, hold on a second, why would Garfiel have multiple tier values? If we want to do battles for him in the state he was in at the start of this fight? I guess. I don't see why we wouldn't have a key for him at the end where he's already stronger.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Wait, hold on a second, why would Garfiel have multiple tier values? If we want to do battles for him in the state he was in at the start of this fight? I guess. I don't see why we wouldn't have a key for him at the end where he's already stronger.

Second this. Garfiel's power doesn't really jump around like Garou, so there wouldn't be an issue with making a new key for him, tbh.

It doesn't scale to Mezo normal stats, which would be like 7-A, x (whatever this feat comes out to) at full power. Garfiel would have like Garou stats, 7-A, x with accelerated development.

Yea, kinda iffy who even scales, Garfiel being on the level on transcendents ie Halibel and Ceci, seems very iffy though.

But the shield saint, tho. More seriously, tho. I kinda agree, but isn't Zab readjusting their calc so there is a calc the result may be lower.

 

[Zabazab]

New result using the mobile game ratio:

Garfiel Punches Clouds

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@FantaRin_The_First If we go off the idea Garf has Reinhard level potential and has now broken through his shell/limit, eventually, he will get to Reinhard levels, not saying it's anytime soon.

His fight with Kurgan, broke his limit, so now when he fought Kafma, he got stronger and stronger, then went up against Mezo, and got a fairy tail/shounen power up. Basically I think we need some way to say he can get stronger.

@Zabazab Literally the same tier lol.

 

[Zabazab]

I think off the top of my head, until Arc 9, the folks that'd get a tier change from this are Garf, Mezoreia (downscaling), and then Cecilus and Halibel upscaling?

 

[VortechsTG]

@FantaRin_The_First If we go off the idea Garf has Reinhard level potential and has now broken through his shell/limit, eventually, he will get to Reinhard levels, not saying it's anytime soon.

His fight with Kurgan, broke his limit, so now when he fought Kafma, he got stronger and stronger, then went up against Mezo, and got a fairy tail/shounen power up. Basically I think we need some way to say he can get stronger.

@Zabazab Literally the same tier lol.

I think you just worded it confusingly. Garfiel shouldn't have two ap values but Garou doesn't have two in later keys either. He just has x value, varies with power mimicry, higher with RE. I think x value higher with Accelerated Development works for Garf.

 

[VortechsTG]

New result using the mobile game ratio:

Garfiel Punches Clouds

vsbattles.fandom.com

Maybe I'm nitpicking but I don't agree with using the center of Vollachia for the width when it stretches far furthur north there than at the sides. Maybe you could take the middle and average it with each side to get the average width for the left and tight half of the country.

Also the cloud type still needs to be changed.

 

[VortechsTG]

I think off the top of my head, until Arc 9, the folks that'd get a tier change from this are Garf, Mezoreia (downscaling), and then Cecilus and Halibel upscaling?

As I said before Cecilus and Halibel do not scale to this. There's no proof they do. It's implied they're stronger by the start of the fight but Garf is very clearly stronger than Halibel by now. Personally I believe Cecilus is still stronger than Garf but there's absolutely zero proof. It would be like saying Julius should scale to it as well just because I feel like he should.

 

[Fezzih_007]

New result using the mobile game ratio:

Garfiel Punches Clouds

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can you use that, like, i don't think this game is even canon. Or is it?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Can you use that, like, i don't think this game is even canon. Or is it?

Its fine.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Its fine.

 

[Zabazab]

Maybe I'm nitpicking but I don't agree with using the center of Vollachia for the width when it stretches far furthur north there than at the sides. Maybe you could take the middle and average it with each side to get the average width for the left and tight half of the country.

Adjusted an average, reduced the ratio by about 30%. New result is present.

Also the cloud type still needs to be changed.

The clouds are dark before they're manipulated, they're dark as a helix is being formed, and they're dark as a cone. The information reads as nimbostratus type clouds, I can't realy justify another type.

If you want an in-story justification for them being black, maybe it was the effect of Mezoreia's mana stored in the clouds being activated transforming them or something.

 

[VortechsTG]

The clouds are dark before they're manipulated, they're dark as a helix is being formed, and they're dark as a cone. The information reads as nimbostratus type clouds, I can't realy justify another type.

By nature of them even being above the capitol they have been manipulated. They are condensed into the sky above it and simply compressed furthur beyond that.

 

[Zabazab]

By nature of them even being above the capitol they are not dark before they are manipulated.

As a violent gale was spurred forth, Garfiel immediately crouched down as his hair intensely flapped; the Cloud Dragon, Mezoreia, ascended in one go, and flew up into the heavenly skies.

Thereupon existed thick, dark clouds that were covering the entirety of the Imperial Capital of Lupugana.

But, the destructive black clouds acted to entirely veil the heavens, and within them was concealed such excess power that Garfiel’s regeneration, and even the waning cityscape of the Imperial Capital that he had desperately protected, would all be reduced to naught.

Garfiel: [Them huge clouds, the whole ******’ lot of it’s made outta the Dragon’s Mana…!!!]

It was a concealed trick that had not been detected until Mezoreia stirred them about, causing them to change their nature.

The trump card of the Cloud Dragon that had been audaciously hidden, was currently baring its fangs against him like this; however, what was causing Garfiel’s heart to tremble was not the destruction that would be brought about by that cluster of mighty power, but rather the state of the Cloud Dragon controlling it.

 

[VortechsTG]

This proves literally nothing. What is this argument? All it takes it to look at almost any illustration in the the last dozen volumes to see the entire empire isn't constantly covered with storm clouds.

 

[Zabazab]

This proves literally nothing. What is this argument? All it takes it to look at almost any illustration in the the last dozen volumes to see the entire empire isn't constantly covered with storm clouds.

Otsuka being inconsistent isn't new. I'm not saying they're storm clouds— there's not enough evidence for them to be large cumulonimbus clouds. The littlest clouds that can be thick/dark are nimbostratus, normal precipitative clouds, which I used. The actual text says that dark clouds blanketed the Imperial Capital numerous times, including right before Madylzoreia actually flies into the sky to nuke Garfiel.

 

[VortechsTG]

Otsuka being inconsistent isn't new. I'm not saying they're storm clouds— there's not enough evidence for them to be large cumulonimbus clouds. The littlest clouds that can be thick/dark are nimbostratus, normal precipitative clouds, which I used. The actual text says that dark clouds blanketed the Imperial Capital numerous times, including right before Madylzoreia actually flies into the sky to nuke Garfiel.

Yes, and I'm not arguing that there aren't dark clouds over the Imperial Capitol, but they aren't over the entire empire. There's no evidence of any kind to what they could be and I highly highly doubt they would be consistent over such a large area anyway. We should be using the values for the most common type of clouds, which appear to be stratocumulus just based on a cursory search.

 

[Zabazab]

Yes, and I'm not arguing that there aren't dark clouds over the Imperial Capitol, but they aren't over the entire empire. There's no evidence of any kind to what they could be and I highly highly doubt they would be consistent over such a large area anyway.

It's 2/3rds of the Empire, not the whole thing.

We should be using the values for the most common type of clouds, which appear to be stratocumulus just based on a cursory search.

Again, only black clouds are described. Only thick clouds are described. Since it's actualy something that's mentioned, I can't just toss it out in favour of a looser assumption based on the IRL average. And then if I did decide to do that, it'd really be more accurate to research the average % of the surface covered by each cloud type at any given time, which would be so complicated and so varied between ENORMOUS cumulonibus clouds, to tiny stratus clouds, that the odds of it varying much from just using very average nimbostratus rain cloud values seems too small to be worth my time.

 

[VortechsTG]

It's 2/3rds of the Empire, not the whole thing.

I know that.

Again, only black clouds are described. Only thick clouds are described. Since it's actualy something that's mentioned, I can't just toss it out in favour of a looser assumption based on the IRL average.

But it's not something that is described. Not before they are condensed. They're only described like that after they're already condensed. Of course they're going to be dark at that point. They have to be. I don't understand what part of this is so hard to get.

And then if I did decide to do that, it'd really be more accurate to research the average % of the surface covered by each cloud type at any given time, which would be so complicated and so varied between ENORMOUS cumulonibus clouds, to tiny stratus clouds, that the odds of it varying much from just using very average nimbostratus rain cloud values seems too small to be worth my time.

Ok, then don't do that. It would technically be more accurate but I don't think it's necessary. I'm not telling you to.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Cecilus is absolutely above Garfiel in terms of AP, its narratively the correct answer and i think we should use our brains and understand the implications instead of taking things way too literally

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So guys apparently there is an Al name chapter, that wasn't even on the LN's table of contents....

Raises more questions as usual.

 

[Zabazab]

So guys apparently there is an Al name chapter, that wasn't even on the LN's table of contents....

Raises more questions as usual.

Ending it with Echidna comforting Al by telling him "The stars were bad", but the furigana actually meaning she said "Natsuki Subaru messed up" is.... I can't even theorycraft with this!!

Cecilus is absolutely above Garfiel in terms of AP, its narratively the correct answer and i think we should use our brains and understand the implications instead of taking things way too literally

Sphinx also fights Ceci, Hali, Eugard, and Garf, and then says:

But, in those mere five seconds, Sphinx, who had already been reduced to thirty-six bodies, was diminished by another seven, bringing her total count down to twenty-nine.

Moving with superhuman speed and combat ability, the Blue Lightning and the Admirer were far too powerful.

Even though she was supposed to be able to reproduce the capacity of her creator, the Witch of Greed, she could not hold her own in the slightest. She could not even get a solid hit in. These opponents were on a level such that she could not even overcome them by sheer force of numbers.

Even if she wanted to do something about that, it was not only those two fighting against the Witch. —Arc 8, Chapter 73, "Fated Foes"

 

[VortechsTG]

Sphinx also fights Ceci, Hali, Eugard, and Garf, and then says:

Halibel is constantly hyped up only to consistently not live up to it at all. The same was true for Cecilus at one point but at least now he's stronger. We shouldn't be using untrustworthy statements like this. I don't know why we're ignoring the fact that Garf knocked Mezoreia out with one punch and dispered its trump card attack and that Halibel has consistently struggled with far far far weaker opponents. Cecilus "obviously having greater ap," even if it weren't impossible to prove, can easily just be explained away with hax.

 

[Zabazab]

Who does Halibel struggle with that is way weaker?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Eugard, and Valgren, I am assuming.

Valgren feels pretty underwhelming in arc 8 imo, really doesn't give the impression of being something which went up against Peak Wilhelm.

Anyway, have no stake in ap scaling right now, who scales to this 6-A feat is ultimately going to be a very small number, speed is much more glaring issue, so ap, probably will be the last thing I get to.

 

[VortechsTG]

Who does Halibel struggle with that is way weaker?

Eugard, Valgren. The only fights he's had against anyone in the main series besides the offscreen fights with a highly variable character like Sphinx.

Eugard barely beat Groovy, the current weakest divine general, but also nearly beat Halibel later. If Groovy hadn't passed him the fiend sword he would have lost. We can look at Balleroy and Rowan to see that the zombies don't really grow an absurd amount stronger. Not enough to suddenly jump from the level of the weakest, albeit still very strong, divine general to the level of someone supposedly far beyond any of the others.

As for Valgren, Wilhelm in base form was enough to give it a good fight and he implies that if he were able to use his full power he would easily be able to beat it. Kurgan also tossed it around pretty casually early in the story. Valgren looks even more like a jobber after the last time he showed up but you're free to ignore that one if you want.

Meanwhile, Mezoreia has consistently bodied some of the strongest divine generals. Olbart was sent to simply keep it busy and seemingly wasn't able to really harm it. Balleroy was beat up while not even trying to fight it, just get past it. And don't even get me started on how badly Mogro was mutilated This is the same Mogro who tanked Balleroy's attacks with no issue and, after a brief scuffle, eventually managed to hit him despite how fast he is.

All this just to bolster the fact that Garf one-shot Mezo when he reached his full power and stopped a cataclismic city destroying attack like Mezo's storm with the same narrative weight as Al Shario. The only reason it didn't work is because Mezo could perform the same attack again.

I think we need to consider that Cecilus and Halibel probably aren't going to play too much of a role going forward. Tappei has given Garf a chapter of focus here and there but he's clearly taken a backseat this arc. Tappei wants to give Cecilus and Halibel the spotlight while he can.

 

[Zabazab]

Peak Wilhelm

I actually had an epiphany during a reread of BB;

When Wilhelm awakens to placing a foot upon the steps to the Heavenly Sword & defeats Kurgan in one exchange, he claims it "may have rivaled his swordsmanship from when he defeated Theresia". After this, while fighting Valgren, he calls his swordsmanship sloppy and says he needs to reach the level he showed when he defeated Theresia or when he defeated Kurgan.

Basically, it is a possibility that "Peak Wilhelm" isn't his normal state of being after Ex2, and is instead an Awakened State he can reach, although I haven't completely put my thoughts together.

 

[VortechsTG]

I actually had an epiphany during a reread of BB;

When Wilhelm awakens to placing a foot upon the steps to the Heavenly Sword & defeats Kurgan in one exchange, he claims it "may have rivaled his swordsmanship from when he defeated Theresia". After this, while fighting Valgren, he calls his swordsmanship sloppy and says he needs to reach the level he showed when he defeated Theresia or when he defeated Kurgan.

Basically, it is a possibility that "Peak Wilhelm" isn't his normal state of being after Ex2, and is instead an Awakened State he can reach, although I haven't completely put my thoughts together.

I thought this was a known fact already. I actually just referenced it

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Pretty much been meaning to fix that for a while now too, Peak isn't Wilhelm's normal state, it's something he awakens to, thus scaling others to his Peak state excluding people like Kurgan and Theresia is dubious.

As for the other topic, the Eugard vs Groovy fight is a big point against Halibel, even when I was reading through it, I remember thinking it would cause issues for scaling, even like speed, the idea Halibel is lightning speed like Ceci, but can be kept up with by Eugard, who Groovy, not exactly among the strongest of the Divine Generals, can keep up with, yea....