Okay, but it'd be better if -- instead of quoting users -- you quoted evidence. Fuji is mistaken, this realm isn't an endless void. Or at the very least there are no scans in the blog calling it that.
Also respectfully, Deagon seeing replies that are vague isn't pestering. Concern ought to be had, especially on upgrades where one finds issues themselves. I don't mean to interrupt your evening- this website will, of course, be here tomorrow if you wished to wait. But I'm trying to say that scrutiny, even sometimes to the point of extremes, is a good thing. It is, in fact, a great thing- perhaps the only thing our wiki may use to survive.Talking solely of the Void Manipulation (since that seems to be the core point of contention), this scan and its translation from the blog itself seem clear enough to me.
Also, respectfully, it's one thing to defend judgement or decisions on a post. It's another for Deagonx to pester other staff about their votes on a thread. Me not wanting to deal with him isn't "not meeting expectations".
I'm doing this cause I want to get back to my evening. I do hope this nonsense of hyper analysing every single agreement cause one staff can't handle a majority doesn't become common.
Fuji is not mistaken and neither is Planck69 and others in pointing out the fact that a realm where nothing can exist (including forms, meaning, shadows, etc) and where reason returns to chaos implies that the realm itself is a Void realm of Chaos.
All well and good. Questioning Lonkitt's, and by extent the rest of the staff that evaluated here, judgement on these threads, less so. That was my core issue. That we're somehow avoiding judgement of the posts when it's really just that we're not beholden to getting another staff's approval for our own decisions.
That's fine. My agreement (to space-time manipulation) is largely in part to Executor's comment on the matter. That part I can see how one would have an issue with it though, so I suppose a response from OP about it would be good. All the same, my vote for it isn't really changed.
The scan does not say "nothing can exist." It says: “There is no figure, no meaning. Not even a shadow exists.”
The reference to "sanzensekai" is literally part of the chant for the same ability. In other words, the evidence for spacetime manip and void manip are different sentences in the same activation chant of an ability which BFRs someone to an empty infinite space. So, no, if the realm is a void it can't be spacetime manip, and if it's a spacetime it can't be void manip.
He stated that he agreed with Space-Time Manip, yeah. He doesn't agree with Void Manip, is the thing.
You aren't beholden to another mod, no. I spoke to another administrator about a similar matter on calculations, however, as I had asked an unnamed calc group member to talk to me about a calc and what their positions on it actually meant (there was some vagueness in their evaluation), and I was simply told no. In the face of vagueness, we came to the conclusion, the evaluation may as well not even exist, and can't really be justifiably used. On a calc, if you refuse to elaborate, it may as well be that you didn't evaluate to begin with. Now, that matter solved itself, but I find myself seeing this philosophy in thread evaluations as well- I do strongly believe that elaboration is and can only be a good thing, presuming both parties act in good faith. So I think it is essentially always a good thing to talk about why you think the way you do, when you have the time of course.
I respect that. I won't pretend to understand Buddhist teachings, so perhaps my disagreement on the matter of space-time and void manip is compromised- as I said, I'll try to take a deeper look later. Your evaluation is fine, I feel that your explanation was satisfactory.
Oh, also. I meant to get to this. This isn't acausality. They were bound by narrative constraints in the lower reality that don't exist in the real world. These are the descriptions of the abilities you're assigning:
There is not much evidence to say that they only exist in the present only, at most in the past and not in the future, because their entire plot and future narrative depends on their creators and the acceptance of the audience, so I would limit their existence to only past and present, although I doubt that affecting the past would work because they are already free from the narrative of their world and are only influenced by the power of the audience aka Imaginative Force.
Well, moreover, I don't think we have good reason to believe that their causality in the real world is atypical.
I think this is a stretch. Altair may not have a pre-written backstory (and thus, her narrative needn't adhere to preset guidelines of characterization) but I don't believe this is a sufficient to say, for instance, that if a week passes by her actions for the past week no longer "exist in the past" or that she doesn't exist in the future.
Can I see the scan for this? It isn't in the blog.
Right, that's my point in saying that. The only manner in which they have changed, relative to causality, is that they are no longer bound to the narrative. Their existence in the real world shouldn't be thought of as having irregular causality. Or at least, I haven't seen a good reason for thinking that.
I don't see in what way they have atypical causality. In the lower world they were essentially being subjected to Plot Manip, and now they aren't, but their causality isn't different.
You do realize that Colloquial Translations and Literal Translations are not the same, yes? If I had to make literal translations, I would have simply used online translators instead of using the help of a (former) translation helper of the wiki offsite to translate them. Because if I did, I would obviously end up with literal translations that are faulty as shown here, here, and here, where "Sanzensekai" is translated Literally as "Three Thousand Worlds" instead of "All of Creation" as it states in my blog, which is what context entails as explained twice in this thread by ExecutorN0. So that was a bold move on your part accusing me of adding stuff when it's up to the best of the knowledge of the translators to translate the text as they seem fit with the context. Furthermore, I asked both ExecutorN0 and Chasekillen offsite regarding the correctness of my translation and they agreed it is fine. Though you are welcome to bring either of them or a knowledgeable Japanese translator on this matter. But I digress with the nitpicking and let's get to the meat of the issue. If a realm has "No figure/form, no meaning, and no shadow" and "where reason reduces to chaos", then as per Occam's Razor, the realm is a chaotic void realm. Whether you need more information or elaboration on this matter to get the ability is entirely your own perspective, just like most of the people here including Planck69, Lonkitt, Dereck03, Fujiwara, etc think it is sufficient to give the ability. In which case, I can obviously put you up for disagree for that part, same as how I put them all up as agree.
Not only is this a Non-Sequitur, but also an Association Fallacy. How did you exactly come to the conclusion that just because a power source is able to warp "Sanzensekai"/"All of Creation" and can create an infinite void realm to trap someone, it automatically means that the realm created is either a space-time or a void? I hope you do realize that Power Sources in fiction are capable of manipulating powers that are contradictory to each other but do not necessarily use them simultaneously. Very much like how Selesia uses the Concept of Hachimon Tonko to warp "Sanzensekai"/"All of Creation" and create a realm is not related to the nature of the realm. They are two different things.
There you go again with the accusations. I know you are using machine translations, but if you actually knew Japanese, you would have found that the Kanji for "Appear" which is "出現" is actually synonymous with "Coming to Existence". So in context, it translates to Selesia's power of using the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou, allowed her to create the Infinite Gates realm. So your point is moot here.
It's not Time Manipulation as an isolated ability. Its Space-Time manipulation as a whole because of "Warping Sanzensekai" as well as using the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou which states to "Manipulate Directions" where directions is associated with both Space-Time as a whole as explained by both me and ExecutorN0 multiple times in this thread.
That is fine and I can obviously take into account the disagreements. However, I do not like his condescending attitude towards me and multiple staff members here as well as his petty accusations when he is corrected by others in this thread.
For Type 2, I can see your viewpoint and I can lean towards removing it as both Fuji and Dereck03 have explained the reasons. However, Type 4 is pretty much given as Dereck explains it.
We don't need to assume that it is, simply the fact that they are no longer bound by the very narrative causality of their world should be enough.
It is not a strech, as she doesn't have a creator due to being an indepedent existence normal methods of creation can't affect her. She even clarified it here and she is completely free and although she does not belong to any place, her existence is supported by an infinite number of creators, since she takes the powers of people's imagination. But as said, they cannot alter Altair's history in any way nor can they create a future where she would lose, so they simply decided to try to create a narrative where Meteora would be stronger than Altair, which failed.
Here. Even long before Meteora planned the use of the bird cage and the creation of Sirius by Magane and Souta, Altair had already predicted all their action and even Aliceteria's betrayal plan but could not deduce the creation plan or the existence of Sirius. And this is contemplated by Altair's total amazement and the realizations she has at that moment, she who always knew everything at the end did not know about that moment.
Well, they should, since they are not bound to follow the narrative of the gods' world, but are forced to follow it because the restorative force is trying to eliminate the irregularity of the real world. And it should be noted that it is not just a normal narrative, but a narrative causality or narrative yoke.
Here you are saying it yourself, they were bound by the causal narrative in their world, but they broke that narrative in the real world, if it were not for the restorative force they would be an atypical existence that would not be governed by the laws of the world.
You're overcomplicating this. Either the word "can" is in it or not. It's not the kind of thing that will vary from translator to translator like specific phrasing or word choice.
If you're attempting to assign the abilities based purely on interpreting her chant literally, that's extremely specious. But yes, definitionally the realm cannot be both spatial and a void at the same time, so whichever one is being given for her opening a gate to that realm, the other is impossible.
Okay, so this is back to all the stuff pulled from real world mysticism websites? In which case strongly disagree. Selesia has never demonstrated such a power and its not acceptable to judge such a thing based on real world religion any more than it'd be acceptable to give Rock Lee spatial manip because his eight gates is also called Hachimon Tonkou or Zoro some ability because he has a sword attack called Sanzensekai.
It isn't. All that really happened is they went to a realm that wasn't being actively plot manip'd. That doesn't grant any form of acausality.
It isn't. Anyone that goes to a different universe wouldn't be bound by the causality of their original universe. That isn't an ability of the character.
Your logic does not work here, because in this case they clearly mention breaking the bound of the narrative causality of their own universe, it is the same for any other character in the wiki, they have Aca 4 for existing in an irregular form of the causality presented by their respective verses/universes and that they may be subject to a higher law of causality it's not an excuse to trying to invalidate the feat.
But they don't "clearly mention breaking the bound of the narrative causality of their own universe." They are pulled out of the narrative of their original universe, i.e. "freed from the narrative yoke" and are brought to the real world. This isn't irregular causality in any way, I confirmed such with Ultima. This is not a power on any of these characters' parts, and we shouldn't treat it as such incorrectly.
This doesn't mean she does not exist in the past or present. I would characterize this as resistance to plot manip, perhaps, but since it seems as though what's actually happening is the plot manip of the creators is being overridden by the fact that the plot manip being applied to her by the audience is stronger, which isn't a power of Altair's, specifically. So, again, this is very blatantly not acausality and we should stop trying to mischaracterize it as such.
I just checked through the blog again and there's nothing suggesting the real world has a narrative yoke. So, again, the only thing that the evidence suggests is that they are no longer being subjected to the inherent plot manip that affects the Storyworlds. This is not acausality.
No, they didn't break the narrative in the real world, it just doesn't exist there. That's not a resistance nor is it acausality.
beating around the bush isnt discussion. the op is within their rights to close it once grace is passed. dont like it? create a follow up. the fact that ultima needed to be called here as a result of your outbursts is asinine.
Yes. He said he would comment later today.
Also, I find this sentiment absurd. You should absolutely address counter arguments in an ongoing discussion instead of just rushing to apply changes.
Aight, fair enough then.
characters are still affected by a narrative.
characters get altered by the audience/ writers are gain new abilities in the real world
I don't understand what within that quote is meant to prove this. This is referring to a situation that occurred within a storyworld. And if they are still affected by their narrative then that means the basic premise through which acausality is being argued for is bunk. I think you're mistaken, but the point is that even if you are correct it doesn't actually help the argument. So I'd prefer if you let Dereck or RM speak for themselves on it.
the point is writers and audience members cause characters to gain new abilities that they did not originally have. Also,no it occurs the the real world.
from what i know, he didn't scale IRL Buddhist concepts 1-on-1, he just use it as analogy and apply what actually show in verse, cause if he truly scale 1-on-1 with real life Buddhist there will be a lot more
Here are the abilities I removed, and a brief explanation of what the argument was for them, and why those arguments are unsound.
Acausality: These characters were pulled from their fictional narratives, and thus were freed from the narrative constraints they were once under. However, this does not suggest they have irregular causality in any way. I thought maybe it could be resistance to plot manip, but when discussing it with Ultima he said he wouldn't consider this situation to grant any ability at all, so both should be removed.
Several problems with this, I'll break each out by ability.
Attack Potency: So, this wouldn't be an AP feat even if this ability created the realm, but none of the scans say that she created it, only that she made the gate to it appear, and an infinite sized space would simply be 3-A in any case. She's only able to use this ability to BFR somebody, there's no evidence this is fungible to her direct attack power or durability and we shouldn't treat it as such.
Resistance to Matter Manip & Biological Manip: Per Bambu: I wouldn't give these resistances for this, unless it is also shown that they cannot be harmed or changed in any way. This is too vague, and really if we took it to the logical extremes, it would mean they cannot be physically harmed. It's nonsensical to then presume that this contradiction is fine while still allowing them to resist these two abilities. If I had to make it something, probably Body Control.
I wouldn't give these resistances for this, unless it is also shown that they cannot be harmed or changed in any way. This is too vague, and really if we took it to the logical extremes, it would mean they cannot be physically harmed. It's nonsensical to then presume that this contradiction is fine while still allowing them to resist these two abilities. If I had to make it something, probably Body Control.
This doesn't seem to actually be Sealing. It's BFR to an infinite space that has one exit and messes with perception to prevent you from finding it. Nothing implies Sealing.
Your assessment matches my own. I also don't think removing a character from their story is an ability of their own at all.
Simply using the word "Concept" is never and will never be enough to justify Conceptual Manipulation. The word means many things, rarely does it mean the thing we use it to mean here on the wiki. I also can't really grasp why Concept Manip Type 1 is being argued for here- I don't understand it at all. Me personally, I would not take references to Buddhism as literal either- which seems to negate Space-Time as an argument.
Yeah.
I cannot offer a proper translation, but as a primer, the notion that she created it appears to be based on a section of the guidebook describing the ability she is activating, which the blog translates as:
However, no machine translator I've used have rendered the verb as "create." They all use the word "make appear" and the root word is "appearance" or "arrival."
Which seems to fit much more neatly with what actually happens on screen and what Selesia is actually demonstrated as being able to do. The anime also translates it as "infinite gate."
Dereck03 is copying the blog here, so no worries.
They can't be physically changed by any physical means (Such as bloating due to eating), but it is true that they can be physically harmed when attacked. So I have no issues changing this to Resistance to Body Control if it fits the bill, though I'll prefer more input on this from others.
Its sealing because the realm was made to trap Altair inside it with no chance of escape. And no, it has no "One Exit" in it and neither it is stated that the space has one exit. The "One Exit" is in regards to the fact that amongst an Infinite Gates, if there are gates, there will be an exit, which Altair can find out. So yes, it was intended to Seal Altair but she used her ability to find out a single exit amongst infinite gates to escape the realm.
That is fine and I can put you up for disagree on this, but I talked to Ultima regarding this and showed him additional context and evidence, so he'll be coming here shortly to address everything.
Context for this is simple. Physical attacks and spells were not doing jack to Altair and thus, to harm Altair, they decided to attack Altair's concept. So yes, they used a concept to attack someone's concept. As for why it's "Type 1", its because the power existed and was created by Matsubara before the realm even spawned. So obviously, the concept is independent of the object.
If you read my comment, I pointed out how contextually, the translation made by Qlipoth_Bacikal is accurate. The translation is in the blog section I linked.
Its in Rakuten Kobo. I have already linked my sources at the start of the blog.
Sealing involves placing a character into another object. Sending them to an empty space isn't sealing.
The nature of what the statement about Altair's "concept" refers to requires a separate discussion, since it's not in the OP and is a whole can of worms unto itself, but they don't say Hachimon Tonkou was used to "attack" Altair's concept, and there's nothing saying the realm didn't already exist. In all likelihood Matsubara was responsible for creating the realm.
It is not. I may not speak Japanese, but I am a professional translator. The word "can" is not something that would depend on context. At best I could see a sentence like "is it possible for him to [verb] or "is he able to [verb]" could be turned into "can" but these two sentences:
