Re:Creators CRT #1

[TokiNoOuja]

Our standards accept WoG as long as it does'nt contradict what the Canon material shown thats not to mention how most if not all of @RM97 questions are regarding stuff that already confirmed to be exist within the Canon material

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The rule says that you should not and it is frowned upon to bother authors about these topics, not that it is forbidden to ask them or that it is NEVER acceptable, go change the rule if that is what you want.

And there is a reason for the existence of the GoW, which are statements made by the authors derived from frequently asked or directed questions by the users, otherwise they would not exist in VSB.

We have in the past disqualified evidence on the grounds of pestering authors- the rule is stated as such to avoid applying rule violations to uninformed people. It's not something one might immediately assume is a rule in a wiki like ours. Regardless, WoG has always been considered tertiary evidence at best, and it also conflicting with our policy of non-intrusion makes these extremely dubious at best.

 

[Robo432343]

i dont think the author statements are necessary coz the series already show what the author is saying

 

[Mr. Bambu]

i dont think the author statements are necessary coz the series already show what the author is saying

May be so. May be not so. But Fujiwara is right in that we will often disregard such statements on the grounds of that rule, at least.

 

[StrymULTRA]

May be so. May be not so. But Fujiwara is right in that we will often disregard such statements on the grounds of that rule, at least.

Idrc about Re:C, but if the author simply clarifies/confirms something that was already hinted in the series, then it should be fine to use, right? It isn't the same as people going to ask Koyama if the DBZ Afterlife is a transcendent and higher dimensional universe or something like that, heck we have Yogiri who uses a WoG statement, which is used because it's a solidification of of something that already was hinted in the series.

 

[Executor_N0]

It's a complicated situation.

I do dislike the way some of the questions are worded, there was really no reason to say "infinite number of higher transcendental dimensions" That would be a textbook of what not to ask and just signals it's for blattleboard reasons. Whenever you ask an author, keep things as vague as possible only mentioning what is in the source material, when we ask something it's not meant to make the author create lore on the spot, but to reveal what was done in the time it was made (After all, it needs to be only supplementary to the source material by the rules of the forum).

And of course, if the tweets aren't necessary and the source material already says that... why ask? Confirmation is always nice, but you don't need to confirm everything that happens in a work by asking the author "Did X thing that happened in the anime really happen?". If it happened in the material, you already got your answer.

I'm fine with the general content considering it's only supplementary, but I would suggest not doing something similar in the future.

 

[Deagonx]

But like I said, it doesn't really matter considering the author statements are just confirmation for things already shown/explained/implied in the series. So whether they can be used or not is not an issue since they just happen to confirm what has been shown/explained/implied in the series

Okay. If this is indeed the case then there should be no issue removing them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay. If this is indeed the case then there should be no issue removing them.

What about the Yogiri thing though? It sounds just as bad.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What about the Yogiri thing though? It sounds just as bad.

Take that to another thread, it's derailing.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What about the Yogiri thing though? It sounds just as bad.

That also shouldn't be used.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That also shouldn't be used.

What @LephyrTheRevanchist says is true, someone should do a CRT about it.

 

[RM97]

Okay. If this is indeed the case then there should be no issue removing them.

I have no issues removing them if that is what site rules entail.
But we are derailing this thread (6 pages just for some minor stuff). If things have been accepted here in this CRT and no one has anything new to say, then we can conclude this thread after whatever timeframe is needed.

 

[Deagonx]

But we are derailing this thread (6 pages just for some minor stuff).

It's not really minor stuff though. Concept Manip Type 1 and 2-B AP and many of the other things are fairly important abilities.

If things have been accepted here in this CRT

The ones not objected to by myself and Bambu are fine.

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, I am fine with the update OP.

 

[Deagonx]

Id really rather we not hand out spacetime manip on the sole basis that she chants "I warp sanzensekai (3000 worlds/all layers of existence" to activate an ability that is essentially a BFR with perception manip.

Given that hachimon tonkou is described as such, I don't see how it's best to interpret "using the concept" of the ability as something more than her just... literally using the ability cause that's what she did? But even if we did consider it concept manip the assessment of "type 1" beggars belief.

Acausality is still bad here. There's really no indication of these characters having irregular causal natures aside from just being moved out of their native realm.

But given that this is at risk for being railroaded, I'll see if I can persuade a few more mods to assess this, since I know Ultima was largely opposed to the reasoning as well.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Question: Isn't the Creations being Acausal contradicted by the fact that they are bound by the cause and effect of the "real world"? Cause I remember Mamika saying that her attacks didn't cause any serious injury/damage when she used them in her world, but do so in the "real world". Also The Creators were able to give the Creations power-ups to use in the final battle by writing them and then having the audience accept them, which I don't think would have been possible if they were in fact Acausal

 

[RM97]

Cause I remember Mamika saying that her attacks didn't cause any serious injury/damage when she used them in her world, but do so in the "real world". Also The Creators were able to give the Creations power-ups to use in the final battle by writing them and then having the audience accept them, which I don't think would have been possible if they were in fact Acausal

That's because of the ability of the Real World to "make sense" of things via its Restorative Force. In the next two episodes, they elaborate how the Creations are not bound by the laws and rationality of the real world and are breaking it, which is causing more damage to the Real World instead. As for the creators one, that entirely hinges on the "Acceptance" of the audience, instead of writing something and instantly having it appear. But no issues, all of these will be addressed in my next CRT which will explain how stuff truly works.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Id really rather we not hand out spacetime manip on the sole basis that she chants "I warp sanzensekai (3000 worlds/all layers of existence" to activate an ability that is essentially a BFR with perception manip.

Given that hachimon tonkou is described as such, I don't see how it's best to interpret "using the concept" of the ability as something more than her just... literally using the ability cause that's what she did? But even if we did consider it concept manip the assessment of "type 1" beggars belief.

Acausality is still bad here. There's really no indication of these characters having irregular causal natures aside from just being moved out of their native realm.

But given that this is at risk for being railroaded, I'll see if I can persuade a few more mods to assess this, since I know Ultima was largely opposed to the reasoning as well.

:l

First, you're not even addressing other peoples' examples of space-time manipulation; outright ignoring scans. Wave Chant is already able to effect space-time by itself, only Ionion Aphoria was added later as an amplified ability by her creator. Do note that so long the spinoff story (which Matsubara wrote for Selesia) were not to be reasonable and within the verse, it would never gain enough 'acceptance' to be apart of Selesia's powerset. If you have doubts about 'Wave Chant's being apart of Selesia's OG movesets, I can also provide a guidebook source that refers Selesia's powerset to contain both.

Second, you're literally refusing to acknowledge how the "concept" term here is used in the literal meaning, and I don't even know how to argue against this kind of stonewalling.

Third, you're telling that characters, whom are brought into the 'Real World' where no supernatural power had even seeped into it prior to Altair's plan, still being able to use their strength as "not acausal"? Like, the 'Real World' itself literally attempts to restore things that make no sense to it's laws in real-time in an order to prevent all the worlds from collapsing. Ah, not to mention how 'yoke' of their world is depicted to be the Narrative Causality itself; which characters have become unbound by it, thus their actual personalities started to surge since they were no longer required to play a set role by the 'yoke'.

Lastly, you're speaking in regards of someone that has yet to comment here. Let them come and express their opinions instead, please.

 

[Deagonx]

Wave Chant is already able to effect space-time by itself,

This was not in the blog nor was it provided as justification in the OP. However, this could be Limited Spatial Manip since all she's really able to do with it here is create an energy ball to throw at someone, but that would be fine. It wouldn't be Time Manip in any way shape or form, though.

Second, you're literally refusing to acknowledge how the "concept" term here is used in the literal meaning, and I don't even know how to argue against this kind of stonewalling.

It's not stonewalling, you are assuming your own conclusion and saying that's how it's being used, but having looked at it myself it reads very naturally as her just activating the ability. But again, even if this were Concept Manip, how is it a Type 1? It's nature is not elaborated on in any way.

Third, you're telling that characters, whom are brought into the 'Real World' where no supernatural power had even seeped into it prior to Altair's plan, still being able to use their strength as "not acausal"? Like, the 'Real World' itself literally attempts to restore things that make no sense to it's laws in real-time in an order to prevent all the worlds from collapsing.

Literally none of this information is pertinent to Acausality.

Ah, not to mention how 'yoke' of their world is depicted to be the Narrative Causality itself; which characters have become unbound by it, thus their actual personalities started to surge since they were no longer required to play a set role by the 'yoke'.

Yes. Essentially they were being Plot Manip'd in their original worlds and now they are free from the Narrative. However, interactions with them in the real world still happen through typical cause and effect, so they shouldn't have acausality.

You aren't considering the actual practical meaning of the abilities you're attempting to assign these characters. I don't see any reason for these characters to be considered as having resistances to Fate Manip, Causality Manip, or Precognition.

Lastly, you're speaking in regards of someone that has yet to comment here. Let them come and express their opinions instead, please.

That's the idea, yes.

 

[MysticBrawler]

That's because of the ability of the Real World to "make sense" of things via its Restorative Force. In the next two episodes, they elaborate how the Creations are not bound by the laws and rationality of the real world and are breaking it, which is causing more damage to the Real World instead. As for the creators one, that entirely hinges on the "Acceptance" of the audience, instead of writing something and instantly having it appear. But no issues, all of these will be addressed in my next CRT which will explain how stuff truly works.

That is true for the first point, but wasn't that only referring to them using their powers? Cause there didn't seem to be any issue when they were just moving around normally. About the second point, them requiring the audiences "Acceptance" to receive their power-ups doesn't really change the fact that it was shown to us that the Creations can be affected by the changes in their narrative so I'd say that my point for this one still stands. With that said if you do have more supporting evidence for Acausality in your next CRT then it would probably be better to include it there instead. Also regarding Ionian Aphoria, i don't see how you could give it any AP when it's only meant to be a trapping move.

 

[RM97]

That is true for the first point, but wasn't that only referring to them using their powers? Cause there didn't seem to be any issue when they were just moving around normally.

Not really no. This is explicitly about their entire existence as superpowered beings with different physiologies and powers. There's also a statement from Meteora about how the World's Yoke will not be able to hold any more creations and that they would need to take actions soon by eliminating Altair who was bringing the creations.

About the second point, them requiring the audiences "Acceptance" to receive their power-ups doesn't really change the fact that it was shown to us that the Creations can be affected by the changes in their narrative so I'd say that my point for this one still stands.

Your point doesn't stand considering it's not a direct effect of Narrative Rewriting, but rather the effects of a collective belief from the people (whether there are changes in the narrative or not, as seen in Selesia's fiery form powerup which was temporary and not part of any story) that brings changes to not only the story worlds but also the real world. Not to mention, there have been 3 direct showcasing of narrative rewrites to change characters or stories in the verse but they all did not work as there was no collective support by the audience.

Also regarding Ionian Aphoria, i don't see how you could give it any AP when it's only meant to be a trapping move.

Yeah, there is no evidence of Selesia creating the realm, so I chalked out the AP part in op.

This was not in the blog nor was it provided as justification in the OP. However, this could be Limited Spatial Manip since all she's really able to do with it here is create an energy ball to throw at someone, but that would be fine. It wouldn't be Time Manip in any way shape or form, though.

Already explained this a dozen times already but it's fine, I already put you up as disagree.

Yes. Essentially they were being Plot Manip'd in their original worlds and now they are free from the Narrative. However, interactions with them in the real world still happen through typical cause and effect, so they shouldn't have acausality.

That argument would have been valid if we were proposing Type 5 Acausality. Fortunately, Type 4 Acausality does not require such conditions as they can be outside Causality/Laws but can still be interacted with normally. Out of the 1428 Acausal Characters on the site, here are some examples of characters with Type 4 Acausality that can normally interact with the world and everyone around them:

• Castlevania Dracula
• Anos Voldigoad
• God Kratos
• Sephiroth
• Demons from DMC
• Arata Kasuga
• Rimuru Tempest
• Toji Fushiguro
• Crystalized Magical Girl Homura
• Space Ishtar
• Oryx, the Taken King
• Bill Cipher

So yes, type 4 Acausals can interact freely with others and the world around them. Creations are stated to be unbound by the narrative causality of their world and they do not even follow the laws of the real world which has been trying to make sense of everything but failing, and this is causing the Real World to crumble down slowly. If you disagree with it, then it's fine, I can put you up as disagree.

 

[Deagonx]

here are some examples of characters with Type 4 Acausality that can normally interact with the world and everyone around them:

There are many many many profiles on the site with abilities they shouldn't have. The fact that other profiles have it isn't a good justification for this profile having it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There are many many many profiles on the site with abilities they shouldn't have. The fact that other profiles have it isn't a good justification for this profile having it.

Many Many profiles that shouldn't have an ability is not an argument when over 1000 profiles have those lol.

 

[KLOL506]

There are many many many profiles on the site with abilities they shouldn't have. The fact that other profiles have it isn't a good justification for this profile having it.

Then either make a CRT to change them or don't complain.

 

[Deagonx]

Then either make a CRT to change them or don't complain.

They are being brought up in the middle of a discussion as a justification. Am I suppose to start 20 CRTs before I respond to it with "those profiles are simply also wrong?"

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not to mention that Acausality Type 4 does never require to be unable to be interacted, that's a standard you made up just now. Only Type 5 needs to be uninteractable.

 

[Hasty12345]

They are being brought up in the middle of a discussion as a justification. Am I suppose to start 20 CRTs before I respond to it with "those profiles are simply also wrong?"

no, but it would be badass

 

[StrymULTRA]

Am I suppose to start 20 CRTs before I respond to it with "those profiles are simply also wrong?"

Yes.

 

[Deagonx]

require to be unable to be interacted, that's a standard you made up just now.

When did I say that

Yes.

That's really dumb.

 

[KLOL506]

They are being brought up in the middle of a discussion as a justification. Am I suppose to start 20 CRTs before I respond to it with "those profiles are simply also wrong?"

Yes, that is how things work on this wiki. If you don't like it, then maybe this wiki is not for you.

 

[StrymULTRA]

When did I say that

Yes. Essentially they were being Plot Manip'd in their original worlds and now they are free from the Narrative. However, interactions with them in the real world still happen through typical cause and effect, so they shouldn't have acausality.

That's really dumb.

That's how I do things to strengten my point though.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, that is how things work on this wiki. If you don't like it, then maybe this wiki is not for you.

Yeah, that's utterly ridiculous. OP shouldn't even be bringing up unrelated profiles as a justification in the first place, and I don't need to make a CRT to point out a profile is bad.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah, that's utterly ridiculous. OP shouldn't even be bringing up unrelated profiles as a justification in the first place, and I don't need to make a CRT to point out a profile is bad.

Regardless of what OP brings up, you still need to make CRTs for profiles that you think shouldn't have stuff if they're mentioned like that. If you don't like how we do things (Making CRTs for every individual verse you think has a problem), then that's not our problem.

Also, from what I can see, the issue is with Acausality Type 5, not Type 4. So I ask you and RM97 both, to focus on the Type 5 aspect instead of the Type 4 aspect as that would be derailing.

 

[Armorchompy]

You might need to make a CRT to change profiles but by no means are you beholden to fixing every profile that has a situation you disagree with- this is a big website with a lot of people who have very different views on things, something having a precedent means nothing on its own, unless it's in actual written rules.

 

[Deagonx]

Regardless of what OP brings up, you still need to make CRTs for profiles that you think shouldn't have stuff if they're mentioned like that.

No, I don't. I'm not beholden to fixing every bad profile on the site.

If you don't like how we do things (Making CRTs for every individual verse you think has a problem), then that's not our problem.

This is a complete and total non-sequitur. Nothing I said suggested I had a problem with this.

Also, from what I can see, the issue is with Acausality Type 5, not Type 4. So I ask you and RM97 both, to focus on the Type 5 aspect instead of the Type 4 aspect as that would be derailing.

Well apparently "what you can see" does not include the OP, which is arguing for Type 4, and if your concern is derailing you probably shouldn't have interjected to suggest I make a dozen CRTs about unrelated characters.

 

[KLOL506]

No, I don't. I'm not beholden to fixing every bad profile on the site.

Tough shit then.

This is a complete and total non-sequitur. Nothing I said suggested I had a problem with this.

Then what is it?

Well apparently "what you can see" does not include the OP, which is arguing for Type 4, and if your concern is derailing you probably shouldn't have interjected to suggest I make a dozen CRTs about unrelated characters.

Yes. Essentially they were being Plot Manip'd in their original worlds and now they are free from the Narrative. However, interactions with them in the real world still happen through typical cause and effect, so they shouldn't have acausality.

Also Strym is right. Complete uninteractibility is for Type 5. None of what you mentioned is remotely a requirement for Type 4.

Now if you want to make it so, that's another story different from this thread.

 

[Deagonx]

Tough shit then.

Exactly! Glad you understand. Those profiles are bad and not a justification for this CRT, but I'm not obligated to fix them for me to point that out.

Also Strym is right. Complete uninteractibility is for Type 5. None of what you mentioned is remotely a requirement for Type 4.

My comment that you quoted does not say "they are capable of being interacted with therefore its not type 4."

The requirement for Type 4 is operating on an irregular system of cause and effect, which these characters do not.

 

[KLOL506]

My comment that you quoted does not say "they are capable of being interacted with therefore its not type 4."

Then would you mind explaining this?

Yes. Essentially they were being Plot Manip'd in their original worlds and now they are free from the Narrative. However, interactions with them in the real world still happen through typical cause and effect, so they shouldn't have acausality.

This is not a requirement to obtain Acausality Type 4 ATM.

 

[Deagonx]

This is not a requirement to obtain Acausality Type 4 ATM.

Yes, it is. Good god.

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality.

However, interactions with them in the real world still happen through typical cause and effect

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, it is. Good god.

There is nothing about the term interaction here.

This term in its entirety:

However, interactions with them in the real world still happen through typical cause and effect

Is not mentioned here at all, so IDK how you came to that conclusion based on the description we have now.

Acausality Type 5 however, is a different story.

"Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible. Though the character is completely independent of causality to the point of being unaffected by any outside change, this only extends to as far as evidence shows and not to things beyond its feats. While true acausality such that one is completely unbounded by and independent from cause and effect in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction."