- 31,457
- 34,316
I can approve this real quick before work. Looks good.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Re:Creators CRT #1
- Thread starter RM97
- Start date
- Status
- 7,887
- 14,932
There are a lot of issues with this CRT.
- 1,106
- 546
- Thread starter
- #44
The issue that you have pointed out is that we cannot use IRL Buddhist Concepts or Outside Sources to justify stuff. This is completely fair in itself as I too believe without sufficient and extensive evidence, IRL concepts and public domain works are not to be used 1-on-1.
However, here I am not doing that at all. In the case of "Sanzensekai", I have merely used the general meaning of it instead of using its literal translation given in the anime (a common mistake which can be seen even in series like Fate and Demonbane). In the case of "Hachimon Tonko", the guidebook already gave evidence that it manipulates direction and is not limited to the Geographical Dimension. To showcase that this direction is associated with both Space-Time, I showcased how in all different websites explaining Qi Men Dun Jia as well as Hachimon Tonko, direction refers to both aspects of Space and Time used for identifying good and bad fortune. In context, both of this thing fits with the plot event as Selesia used the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to create an inescapable space that sealed Altair and was beyond her range, aka create a 2-B sized realm that would trap Altair in it, denying her the possibility to escape.
Even if I were to go by the literal translation and only by what's given in canon materials, the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou is used to "warp 3000 Worlds" aka a 2-B Space-Time manipulation feat. So still the same thing lol.
- 7,887
- 14,932
It is odd that you describe Hachimon Tonko as "one of the core principles of Qimen Dunjia" when they are, in fact, literally the same thing? Hachimon Tonkou is just the Japanese pronounciation of the characters, Qimen Dunjia (or rather, Bamen Dunjia) is the Chinese pronounciation. Regardless, I don't know why there are so many outside sources here when the actual scans from the verse say so little.
It doesn't says that, though. Given that the guidebook describes this ability as warping one's sense of direction, it just seems like she was using it to disorient Altair so that she couldn't find the exit.
Again, without concrete information from the verse itself about what exactly this entails, we can't just assume it means probability manipulation. Especially since, as far as I can tell researching the term, the phrase "Sanzensekai" usually just means the universe.
Both of your outside links are for a different term "ichinen sanzen" not "sanzensekai."
Last edited:
- 1,106
- 546
- Thread starter
- #46
Hachimon Tonkou is the Eight Gates Formation with the kanji "八門遁甲" whereas Qi Men Dun Jia is a divination method with the Kanji "奇门遁甲", so no they are not the literal same thing, but rather The former is a part of the latter as one of the two core principles (the other being Nine Stars Allocation).
It doesn't say what? That she used the concept of Hachimon Tonko to create a Sealed Space? Seems like you are confused, but no worries. Here is the full video for context.
That's because Sanzen itself means "3000" and Sekai means "World" aka 3000 worlds which is even stated the same in the anime. However, you are not wrong in your research because the term is synonymous to "The Universe" but in a Buddhist sense. Matter of fact, the links I have given, where "Ichinen" means "Single Moment of Life" whereas "Sanzen" is short for Sanzensekai or "Three Thousand World", have the same definition: "The three thousand realms, or the entire phenomenal world, exist in a single moment of life."
But let's say that I do not use external sources for the meaning of both Hachimon Tonkou and Sanzensekai, and go solely by what is given in the series and canon materials, I still end up getting the fact that the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou is used by Selesia which has the power to warp 3000 worlds and can manipulate directions beyond geographical ones. Ergo, the ability still ends up getting Space-Time manipulation. As for Probability Manipulation, I will let others decide.
- 7,887
- 14,932
You're mistaken, you're using two separate languages on the same characters. The characters in the Japanese "Hachimon Tonkou" are pronounced "Ba Men Dun Jia" in Chinese. This refers to the Eight Gates.
More importantly, you seem to be contradicting yourself? You said twice:
You literally linked to a Chinese wikipedia disambiguation page for "Ba Men Dun Jia" which says "this can refer to Qi Men Dun Jia or the Eight Gates ability in Naruto."
Do you notice how your scan stops at the phrase "Hachimon Tonkou" and does not say the phrase "Sealed Space?" It seems like you are confused, but no worries. I read all of the scans in that section on your blog and none of them support your claim. If you believe a phrase in the video supports your claim tell me what it is.
Indeed, you linked two pages that define "Ichinen Sanzen" but the term "Ichinen" was not used. On both the Japanese and Chinese wikipedia pages, the phrase "Sanzensekai" links to a page about Buddhist cosmology, so indeed the term appears to be simply used as "universe" in a Buddhist sense. There is no evidence it refers to probability manip in any fashion, so you should retract that claim.
The only thing I'm getting from the actual canon materials is that Selesia BFR'd Altair and used an ability that confuses her sense of direction to prevent her from finding the exit, the dozen-odd links to pages about Chinese mysticism notwithstanding.
- 3,220
- 3,085
As I often say, sometimes it matters more to say the meaning itself than the general translation.
Why 3 thousand worlds? Because it's a reference to the 10 worlds, with the 10 inside themselves (100), but there are 10 factors of existence making it 1000 and finally the 3 levels of existence (Which varies in understanding depending on the methodology) giving the number of 3000. It symbolizes all of existence at all levels and all factors as a single thing. So, it makes sense that it would be called universe, but it's also universe in a context that isn't automatically applied here.
Like, if someone makes a big bang and brings forth matter into an empty void, we don't automatically think it also create all rules in that space, time, fate, and all interactions to a minimum detail. If you use a word that means universe that specifies it includes literally everything down to all aspects of existence, I think it brings more to it than what is normally accepted here.
Of course, this all still depends on the context of the work, but I guess real world studies can help get the general meaning, but it seems to be against the rules.
- 1,106
- 546
- Thread starter
- #49
Uh No. You or anyone in here can translate both the Kanjis in both Japanese and Chinese and they will still be different. But the fact that Qi Men Dun Jia is different than Hachimon Tonkou is evident in their definition. Qi Men Dun Jia is a Chinese Divination technique that has both Eight Gates as well as a Nine Gate technique. So no, they are not the same.
I am pretty sure I have made a clarification comment to explain everything from scratch on that matter.
And?
I am not confused and I am sure the rest of the people here including an admin, 2 mods and 6 regular members have not been confused with what I have posted either. But you definitely seem to be, so let me break it down. Selesia uses the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to power up Ionion Aphoria which apparently has the capability to warp Sanzensekai. Selesia creates a dimension/realm of nothingness but only Infinite gates using the said concept. Selesia collapses the gates and Altair vanishes along with the gates thus implying Selesia successfully BFR'd Altair into the dimension. But Altair comes back and Selesia asks Altair how she could come back from that. Altair explains that if there is a gate, then there will be an exit and somehow she pointed out one single exit amongst an infinite gates. A basic deduction tells you that the space itself was supposed to be a sealed realm to prevent Altair from escaping, but she could somehow escape it by finding an exit gate amongst an infinite gates (which was not supposed to happen).
Ichinen outright means "Single Moment of Life". It being present or not is irrelevant, otherwise I would have said something along the lines of "Every possibilities for every moment in life". But it seems probability manip would not be appropriate here as how @ExecutorN0 explains it. So I will say all of Creation or essentially, the scale of the Cosmology itself? Even then it would be "Space-Time" manipulation + the cosmology tier (Which again fits my argument against Fuji on creating a space so big, Altair could not escape from it via Dimensional Travel).
Even if I were to remove the Chinese Mysticm stuff, given what @ExecutorN0 explained (And essentially what I said earlier), only Probability Manipulation will go.
- 7,887
- 14,932
As I said, "Hachimon Tonkou" is how the characters are pronounced if translated in Japanese. If they are translated in Chinese those same Kanji are translated to "Ba Men Dun Jia." You listed a wikipedia page which says "Ba Men Dun Jia" is just a different way to refer to "Qi Men Dun Jia."
So, yes, they are the same. And I really am not concerned with the real-world description of it being a divination technique since I've seen it used in two anime now, neither of which used it as a divination technique. This is why we don't use real world descriptions to determine how traditional concepts are used in anime.
You certainly are confused, and people agreeing with you does not change that.
For instance: "She pointed out one single exit amongst infinite gates." Except, there weren't an infinite amount of gates, the scan doesn't say infinite gates, it says "a single exit in an infinite space." Now, I call this "confusion" because I think it is the more generous assumption than outright deception on your part, but this is a habit of yours where your descriptions contradict your own evidence, such as when you claimed Qi Men Dun Jia involves manipulating space when it does not.
"ancient mysticism to manipulate the very concept of “Hachimon Tonko” aka “Qi Men Dun Jia” which governs and controls Direction as well as Space-Time to bring good and bad fortune."
It doesn't bring good or bad fortune, and it doesn't govern or control direction or space and time. It is a divination technique, it discerns/detects good luck and bad luck in relation to space and time. This is another instance where confusion has led you to describe a source in a way that contradicts your own evidence.
You also inserted information into your description of that scene, because the actual dialogue doesn't say that the manner in which Selesia used Hachimon Tonkou was "to power up Ionion Aphoria" or that it "creates a dimension/realm out of nothing" et cetera. I want evidence, not ad-hoc assumptions you're making to wank the verse.
I'm fine with Spacetime Manip, although in the absence of evidence that this power can be used offensively it wouldn't increase AP.
Concept Manip, Time Manip, Chaos Manip, Void Manip, Vector Manip, and Probability Manip would need evidence.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
To be fair to RM, there is evidence for most of these. Void manip and chaos manip are covered by how the space is an endless void that reduces all reason to chaos, and vector manip is covered by how it distorts physical directions as well as perceived directions.
- 1,106
- 546
- Thread starter
- #52
You realize that just because I listed a page that is named "Ba Men Dun Jia" which references "Qi Men Dun Jia" does not mean they are the same. Especially, when I have explained how they are not the same but Hachimon Tonkou is just a part of it. Also, if they do not even mention any similarity, then your entire point is moot. It is just aa passing reference then, similar to how Big Bang for Vegeta in DBZ which has no relation to the actual IRL big bang.
I know you did not check my blog because the infinite gate is mentioned here (which is also present in the video if you have checked it too ya know) as well as in the Guidebook too, and no, it is not talking about size or anything. Anyone can clearly see the gates replicating endlessly. So maybe try harder to read and think critically?
Crazy how you still cherry-picking and fixated on something I wrote early on and later rectified it in a new comment.
At this point I am spoonfeeding but this scan or this scan directly states Selesia is using the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to create Infinite Gates, or how this scan outright states that the realm made by Selesia is a place where reason returns to chaos and where no form or even shadow, or even meaning itself cannot exist while Altair can sense the energy and power coming off Selesia's magic circles, or how about this scan that I have used multiple times in this thread that states Hachimon Tonkou is the art of manipulating direction. Also funny how you did not even think once before asking for evidence for even though you agreed to spacetime manip and how I agreed to let probability manipulation go.
Also, creation feats are tierable, and hence why I said 2-B via Ionion Aphoria, though it will be Creation feat.
Last edited:
- 7,887
- 14,932
Yeah I just struggle to see it being concrete enough to say this character can actually manipulate Chaos.
Also I find it really funny because this scan literally uses "Sanzensekai" but translates it as "all of creation."
- 32,835
- 38,108
Correct. Creation Feats are indeed tierable as AP, but it scales solely to Creation and not Striking Strength, unless you can prove you're using the same quantity of energy for both striking strength and creation feats, or that your striking strength has a higher energy expenditure.
- 12,822
- 2,599
@RM97 Your Second and Fourth link has this listed as it (I'm assuming it's a mistake)
- 1,106
- 546
- Thread starter
- #56
My bad, this is the link, replaced it.
- 7,887
- 14,932
The page named Ba Men Dun Jia doesn't "reference" Qi Men Dun Jia. It literally says that Ba Men Dun Jia is another name for Qi Men Dun Jia.
However, let me ask this: Is there anything in the verse that actually says Qi Men Dun Jia instead of Ba Men Dun Jia? Like, do we have literally any reason to even be discussing Qi Men Dun Jia, now that you are claiming they are different things?
I did read the blog. Do you understand the difference between "infinite gate" and "infinite gates?"
Moreover, in the actual scan you are referencing, it doesn't say Gate, it says space:
So maybe try harder to read and think critically?
Crazy, yet another scan that doesn't say what you claim it does.
The first scan says "It looks like you've used the concept of Hachimon Tonkou"
The second scan, according to DeepL, says: "A wave chant that makes the infinite gate appear using the concept of Hachimon Tonkou"
It doesn't even say create, and it's only a single gate.
Moreover, the translation I'm getting for the Hachimon Tonkou description in the guidebook reads as follows:
The art of manipulating direction. It distorts the direction of perception, not just geographical direction. For example, when you think you are moving in a straight line, you end up going around in circles in the same place.
So I wouldn't consider this sufficient evidence for "vector manipulation."
You listed it as AP in your original post.
- 3,220
- 3,085
To be fair, it's something very easy to get wrong in Japanese, especially when it's a language that basically lacks the generic plural that is commonly used because in writing it deals more with the concept of something. So, of course, 無限の門 can both be translated as infinite gate/gate of infinite or infinite gates. Considering there was a very clear pattern of multiple gates appearing, I wonder why it was translated as infinite gate instead of infinite gates.
- 7,887
- 14,932
Given the rate of progression, the total amount seems to not have been infinite when the ability is activated. Later Altair says "where theres a gate, theres an exit" and "finding a single exit in an infinite space." So whatever realm she's being sent to appears to be an infinite gate, not a realm with an infinite amount of gates.
Georredannea15
He/Him- 4,726
- 3,122
Personally, I agree with the OP.
- 7,887
- 14,932
Have you read the counter-arguments? Several elements of this are pretty clearly unsupported by the evidence.
- 9,881
- 12,887
I read them. I saw the counter-counter-arguments. I agreed with them
Again, I agree with the OP
- 7,887
- 14,932
It's kind of hard not to when several elements of the OP are unarguably unsupported by the evidence?
Perhaps you can explain why exactly Selesia is getting "void manipulation" for instance? The word void is not present in any of the scans, nor is the word "abyss" or "nothingness." RM97 characterizes it as a "Chaos Realm of Nothingness/Non-Existence" in his blog but I've gone over all of the scans and there is absolutely no reference to this space having such a quality, it's just called an infinite space. The section of the blog where Altair erases the universe uses the word abyss, not Selesia's feat.
So, how exactly is that being determined? The blog post doesn't even explain why it's being called that. The closest thing I can tell is that the novelization adds the following line to Selesia's chant:
But, one: This translation is wrong, it only says "Not even a shadow exists there." So serious scrutiny should be applied to the fact that the OP inserted the word "can" where it didn't exist in the raws, and
Two: This doesn't make it a void nor does it make this void manip.
- 18,624
- 18,681
They're unarguably unsupported..... to you.
Power to you if you disagree fine, but I'd expect you to be more mature than thinking that "throughout threads and posts, I alone am the sentient one".
- 9,881
- 12,887
If you disagree, you disagree. But I have a different opinion. I'm doing what I'm supposed to as a thread mod and giving my honest input
- 7,887
- 14,932
Right, but this is what I mean. You ask me to place faith that mindless agreement is not occurring, but even when I give you the opportunity to explain your own stance you retreat to a platitude like "well that's just your opinion and my opinion is different"
Okay, sure, I'm fine if you disagree with me Planck, but if your personal opinion is that Selesia should have void manip, then you should be capable of articulating why you believe that. I suspect that the reason you are avoiding doing so, and will continue to avoid doing so, is because you quite literally cannot because even the blog does not explain this claim. In which case, why are you agreeing?
- 18,624
- 18,681
I genuinely can't be bothered nor do I have to explain my leanings to you. Neither does any other staff.
Nor do I or Lonkitt or DDM need your "faith in us".
But eh, sure. If it helps you sleep at night. I've been held at gunpoint to agree.
- 7,887
- 14,932
Right, but this is exactly what I mean. Sure, you get to deliver your "clap back" and feel as though you've dunked on me, but the actual reason is that you literally can't and it's incredibly transparent. And you'll always have the option of relying on something like this to avoid taking responsibility for what's pretty clearly a bad vote, but in the same vein: I expect you to be more mature than that.
If we want to FRA train this thread despite the very clear issues with some of these additions, I quite literally can't stand in the way of that, but it's pretty disappointing altogether. The blog does not even make a case for void manipulation, and several of these translations are blatantly edited. But you can't be bothered, so, vote away.
- 663
- 551
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
VS Battles
Joke Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 22,784
- 22,312
Generally speaking it is a good thing if a staff member is capable and willing to defend in the slightest what their position is. On that front, I think it would be good if you could explain why you think this character has Void Manip, because as staff there is a certain level of expectation to be able to do that sort of thing: your vote is only valuable if it holds up to scrutiny and can be confirmed as such. So, would you mind clarifying the justifications, insofar as you see them, @Planck69?
- 7,887
- 14,932
One further note I want to make, how is it possible for Selesia to be granted Spatial Manip, Time Manip, and Void Manip, all for the same realm? If the realm is a void, it can't be spacetime. Our standards are clear on this:
The realm can't be spacetime and and literally non-existence.
- 18,624
- 18,681
Talking solely of the Void Manipulation (since that seems to be the core point of contention), this scan and its translation from the blog itself seem clear enough to me.
Also, respectfully, it's one thing to defend judgement or decisions on a post. It's another for Deagonx to pester other staff about their votes on a thread. Me not wanting to deal with him isn't "not meeting expectations".
I'm doing this cause I want to get back to my evening. I do hope this nonsense of hyper analysing every single agreement cause one staff can't handle a majority doesn't become common.
- 7,887
- 14,932
First: Not even from a perspective of disagreement, I literally do not know what about that scan, in your view, is meant to indicate that it is a void. And as I said, the translation is wrong, the word "can" is not in the original Japanese. You can check this yourself.
Second: If it's a void then she can't get spatial manip and time manip for the exact same feat, as I explained above. So are you fine with removing those abilities, then?
- 1,106
- 546
- Thread starter
- #78
Space-Time Manipulation comes from this aspect as explained by ExecutorN0 above in his comment where Sanzensekai is in reference to all worlds. Matter of fact even Deagonx agreed with it.
As for void and chaos Manipulation, It is exactly as Planck69 pointed out and so did everyone else including Fujiwara too here:
- 10,343
- 11,894
Don't do this shit again. This is a warning.
- 18,618
- 12,898
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
