Re:Creators CRT #1

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That is literally sealing because if Altair had not been able to found the exit she would have been trapped there forever which clearly suits the ability.

She is listed as having dimensional travel, so if she needed to find an exit instead of simply going out through her own power, I would also say she got sealed, yeah.

 

[Dereck03]

She is listed as having dimensional travel, so if she needed to find an exit instead of simply going out through her own power, I would also say she got sealed, yeah.

Yeah, and the way she said that doesn't implied she used a dimensional travel to get out of that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That is literally sealing because if Altair had not been able to found the exit she would have been trapped there forever which clearly suits the ability.

No it isn't lol?

If I deposit you into a labyrinth, and you get lost, I'm not Sealing you in. You have a clear misunderstanding of what the ability constitutes, one thinks.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

She is listed as having dimensional travel, so if she needed to find an exit instead of simply going out through her own power, I would also say she got sealed, yeah.

Okay, see this is something. Just being trapped in something isn't fundamentally Sealing, lest we begin awarding humanity Sealing for the capacity to make corn mazes.

The page doesn't elaborate on her Dimensional Travel, but depending on what it is specifically, yeah, Sealing might work.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Okay, see this is something. Just being trapped in something isn't fundamentally Sealing, lest we begin awarding humanity Sealing for the capacity to make corn mazes.

The page doesn't elaborate on her Dimensional Travel, but depending on what it is specifically, yeah, Sealing might work.

Agreed, would need an example of her using this ability to travel to other realms or something.

 

[Dereck03]

No it isn't lol?

If I deposit you into a labyrinth, and you get lost, I'm not Sealing you in. You have a clear misunderstanding of what the ability constitutes, one thinks.

That is literally a false equivalence, an infinite space is not equivalent to a labyrinth, besides if your example were given to justify a sealing it would be completely rejected as the context and elaboration matters more here and the supportive evidence.

Anyway, reading the to comments below of this then sealing might work so not debating this anymore. I would like to move to this.

Yes, this is correct, Physical attacks don't work against Altair, she can only be damaged if the attack attacks her very concept itself. So the use of a a Conceptual Attack (The Concept of Hachimon Tonkou) to attack another Concept (Altair's Concept) cannot be used as "vague mention of the word concept that does not automatically give Cm" so as not to warrant Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That is literally a false equivalence, an infinite space is not equivalent to a labyrinth, besides if your example were given to justify a sealing it would be completely rejected as the context and elaboration matters more here and the supportive evidence.

The infinite space is irrelevant. If his example would be rejected, this one would to. The saving grace is her dimensional travel capability, of which the profile doesn't elaborate and I would certainly prefer to see it in action.

 

[Dereck03]

The infinite space is irrelevant. If his example would be rejected, this one would to. The saving grace is her dimensional travel capability, of which the profile doesn't elaborate and I would certainly prefer to see it in action.

Isn't it enough to have shown that Altair can go to all the story worlds and bring the other creations into the real world? Also bringing people from the real world into the story worlds.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Does this specifically hinge on them being stories?

If not, yeah, Sealing is probably fine.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Isn't it enough to have shown that Altair can go to all the story worlds and bring the other creations into the real world? Also bringing people from the real world into the story worlds.

Is this infinite space part of the story worlds? Or beyond their range?

If it's the second, then their dimensional travel can't help her escape anyways (unless she does have enough range proven in some other way) since they would lack range, thus the only thing pointing to sealing is gone

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Is this infinite space part of the story worlds? Or beyond their range?

If it's the second, then their dimensional travel can't help her escape anyways (unless she does have enough range proven in some other way) since they would lack range, thus the only thing pointing to sealing is gone

The "Infinite Space" part would be one* of the story worlds, yes. Since Selesia was recently amped (by her creator) to have that ability.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The "Infinite Space" part would be of the story worlds, yes. Since Selesia was recently amped (by her creator) to have that ability.

Then yes, I agree with sealing. For someone like me that's not knowledgeable on this series, is there a scan anywhere showing this? So we can add this to the profile for further justification (particularly her dimensional travel)

 

[Deagonx]

That is literally sealing because if Altair had not been able to found the exit she would have been trapped there forever which clearly suits the ability.

That's like saying putting someone in a corn maze is sealing if they're too dumb to find their way out.

Edit: Bambu beat me to the corn maze comparison.

 

[Dereck03]

Is this infinite space part if the story worlds? Or beyond their range?

If it's the second, then their dimensional travel can't help her escape anyways since they would lack range, thus the only thing pointing to sealing is gone

I wouldn't know the since infinite space was only shown when Selesia used her Ionion Aphoria and it was only used in the real world which is not part of the story worlds but it was an ability given by the author so yeah could be and although these are considered alternate realities/universes the real world is where they originated. Perhaps @RM97 can give a better details of this.

And also the lack of range would be a correct approach. For example, she has the range to travel to the story worlds and cross the dimensional gap that exists between them and the real world, but she specified the need to seek for an exit in the infinite space, she does not have enough power to escape from the bird cage of meteora and the blog shows that it is not a simple space, but that will be left for some future CRT based on cosmology.

And furthermore, after absorbing sirius and becoming a god she could even reach the abyss which is a place that transcends the world of the gods and where the imaginative force originates and she wasn't capable of that in this current state.

So yeah, lacking range is the best approach.

 

[Deagonx]

Though I will say I am not especially pressed about the "sealing" ability as long as Selesia's AP upgrade and the various manips (aside from perception manip) are removed, and per Bambu's note we replace the resistances with something more fitting.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I wouldn't know the since infinite space was only shown when Selesia used her Ionion Aphoria and it was only used in the real world which is not part of the story worlds but it was an ability given by the author so yeah could be and although these are considered alternate realities/universes the real world is where they originated. Perhaps @RM97 can give a better details of this.

And also the lack of range would be a correct approach. For example, she has the range to travel to the story worlds and cross the dimensional gap that exists between them and the real world, but she specified the need to seek for an exit in the infinite space, she does not have enough power to escape from the bird cage of meteora and the blog shows that it is not a simple space, but that will be left for some future CRT based on cosmology.

And furthermore, after absorbing sirius and becoming a god she could even reach the abyss which is a place that transcends the world of the gods and where the imaginative force originates and she wasn't capable of that in this current state.

So yeah, lacking range is the best approach.

Well, according to Nothing, the infinite space is part of the story worlds. I would be willing to wait for his scans.

If not, then yeah, I would take it that she simply lacked the range to escape, instead of actual sealing.

 

[Dereck03]

Well, according to Nothing, the infinite space is part of the story worlds. I would be willing to wait for his scans.

If not, then yeah, I would take it that she simply lacked the range to escape, instead of actual sealing.

Oh, I didn't take that option into account but I highlighted it.

ut it was an ability given by the author so yeah could be

She was amped by her author with the approval of the audience and she is a fictitious existence in a fictitious scenario created by meteora with the acceptance of the audience so is part of the story worlds so yeah, i retrain with the lack of range. She couldn't use her Dimensional travel to get out of the infinte space and to get out of Meteora's bird cage.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As long as we get the proper scans to support her dimensional travel, it's fine with me.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I wouldn't know the since infinite space was only shown when Selesia used her Ionion Aphoria and it was only used in the real world which is not part of the story worlds but it was an ability given by the author so yeah could be and although these are considered alternate realities/universes the real world is where they originated. Perhaps @RM97 can give a better details of this.

And also the lack of range would be a correct approach. For example, she has the range to travel to the story worlds and cross the dimensional gap that exists between them and the real world, but she specified the need to seek for an exit in the infinite space, she does not have enough power to escape from the bird cage of meteora and the blog shows that it is not a simple space, but that will be left for some future CRT based on cosmology.

And furthermore, after absorbing sirius and becoming a god she could even reach the abyss which is a place that transcends the world of the gods and where the imaginative force originates and she wasn't capable of that in this current state.

So yeah, lacking range is the best approach.

It was used in the birdcage, my g, not exactly the real world.
Also, you might want to not refer to the wiki, I know the whole blog is there but they kindly asked you not to do so before, so... ._.

 

[Dereck03]

As long as we get the proper scans to support her dimensional travel, it's fine with me.

She was the one that brought the creations to the real world so there is no room for speculation, besides the scans that show this are on the blog and I am transferring the blog to VSB so there is no complaint, I just ask for a little time to finish uploading all the images, there are thousands of images.

It was used in the birdcage, my g, not exactly the real world.
Also, you might want to not refer to the wiki, I know the whole blog is there but they kindly asked you not to do so before, so... ._.

Yeah, check my last comment.

Oh, I didn't take that option into account but I highlighted it.

She was amped by her author with the approval of the audience and she is a fictitious existence in a fictitious scenario created by meteora with the acceptance of the audience so is part of the story worlds so yeah, i retrain with the lack of range. She couldn't use her Dimensional travel to get out of the infinte space and to get out of Meteora's bird cage.

So yeah, is part of the story words.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fair enough

we may proceed with the next topic of discussion, if the others are still interested in that

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair enough

we may proceed with the next topic of discussion, if the others are still interested in that

Interested is a very strong term for what I have been, on this thread, Lephyr.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It is what it is

 

[Dereck03]

we may proceed with the next topic of discussion

More pain?

snip

This ig.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes, this is correct, Physical attacks don't work against Altair, she can only be damaged if the attack attacks her very concept itself. So the use of a a Conceptual Attack (The Concept of Hachimon Tonkou) to attack another Concept (Altair's Concept) cannot be used as "vague mention of the word concept that does not automatically give Cm" so as not to warrant Conceptual Manipulation.

Well, to me at least, that seems straight forward

though admittedly, I am more liberal with these things, so I can understand if other staff require more proof

 

[Deagonx]

In the guidebook Hachimon Tonkou is just an ability that warps someone's sense of direction. I don't think using the "concept" of an ability is best understood in terms of Concept Manip. She's almost certainly just using the ability itself and it's being phrased as "using the concept" like if a fighter "used the concept of head movement" to win the fight.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, this is correct, Physical attacks don't work against Altair, she can only be damaged if the attack attacks her very concept itself. So the use of a a Conceptual Attack (The Concept of Hachimon Tonkou) to attack another Concept (Altair's Concept) cannot be used as "vague mention of the word concept that does not automatically give Cm" so as not to warrant Conceptual Manipulation.

This looks good to me then.

 

[RM97]

It seems most of the confusion is cleared by Dereck03 and NothingToDebateWith. Also, yes I already have a CRT planned for the cosmology (and other important aspects) next, so it will clear up everything.

But lets move on and address this point:

In the guidebook Hachimon Tonkou is just an ability that warps someone's sense of direction. I don't think using the "concept" of an ability is best understood in terms of Concept Manip. She's almost certainly just using the ability itself and it's being phrased as "using the concept" like if a fighter "used the concept of head movement" to win the fight.

I WOULD HAVE (keyword WOULD HAVE) agreed with you on this matter IF (again, keyword IF) there was no context given and it was just a random passing mention of the word "Concept". However, Context already shows that the characters are unable to fight against her normally as her physical form's damage is no consequence to her and that they have to attack her "concept" just to make it work. Hence why they specifically stated "Maximum Power is not enough. Physical Attack Spells don't work on her. It won't work unless we attack her concept itself." As such, Selesia whips out Ionion Aphoria which uses the "Concept" of Hachimon Tonkou to attack Altair. As Dereck03 explained above:

Yes, this is correct, Physical attacks don't work against Altair, she can only be damaged if the attack attacks her very concept itself. So the use of a a Conceptual Attack (The Concept of Hachimon Tonkou) to attack another Concept (Altair's Concept) cannot be used as "vague mention of the word concept that does not automatically give Cm" so as not to warrant Conceptual Manipulation.

Selesia used a "Concept" to attack Altair's "Concept", i.e. a Conceptual Attack. There was no other way to affect Altair other than attacking her Concept.
Think about it critically. Why would the series need to explain about Physical-Magical attacks not working and needing to attack Altair's concept to work and how Selesia is using the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to attack her? The series would have simply said they are using Hachimon Tonkou (with or without mentioning "Concept of Hachimon Tonkou") instead and be done with it instead of giving the context that Physical-Magical attacks do not work and attacking her Concept does.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

It seems most of the confusion is cleared by Dereck03 and NothingToDebateWith. Also, yes I already have a CRT planned for the cosmology (and other important aspects) next, so it will clear up everything.

But lets move on and address this point:


I WOULD HAVE (keyword WOULD HAVE) agreed with you on this matter IF (again, keyword IF) there was no context given and it was just a random passing mention of the word "Concept". However, Context already shows that the characters are unable to fight against her normally as her physical form's damage is no consequence to her and that they have to attack her "concept" just to make it work. Hence why they specifically stated "Maximum Power is not enough. Physical Attack Spells don't work on her. It won't work unless we attack her concept itself." As such, Selesia whips out Ionion Aphoria which uses the "Concept" of Hachimon Tonkou to attack Altair. As Dereck03 explained above:

Selesia used a "Concept" to attack Altair's "Concept", i.e. a Conceptual Attack. There was no other way to affect Altair other than attacking her Concept.
Think about it critically. Why would the series need to explain about Physical-Magical attacks not working and needing to attack Altair's concept to work and how Selesia is using the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to attack her? The series would have simply said they are using Hachimon Tonkou (with or without mentioning "Concept of Hachimon Tonkou") instead and be done with it instead of giving the context that Physical-Magical attacks do not work and attacking her Concept does.

Yeah the context is pretty damn straight foward,the Altair that we saw all the time are nothing but just a physical hologram that she used to interact with the surrounding thats not to mention how Altair also described as a characters that only exist as a Sketch in the first place.

When fighting her within the Birdcage,we saw none of the characters abilities able to harm her in any meaningful way as it just affecting the physical hologram,then they figured out that in order to harm Altair,you need to direct harm her Concept itself and guess what??only after Selesia realized that fact she use Ionion Aphoria which Altair herself immediately said she utilized the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to attack her and it proved to affecting Altair and eventually she need to manually escaped the Realm instead which confirms it being a Conceptual Manipulation based ability

 

[Dereck03]

I've finished the long ass blog.... I literally uploaded more than or almost 1K images in this days, so @RM97 you can copy the source code it and create yourself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I've finished the long ass blog.... I literally uploaded more than or almost 1K images in this days, so @RM97 you can copy the source code it and create yourself.

I'd recommend removing the WoG tweets though, as they explicitly break one of the site rules and aren't allowed to be used lmao

 

[Dereck03]

I'd recommend removing the WoG tweets though, as they explicitly break one of the site rules and aren't allowed to be used lmao

Which one? Link the rule here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Which one? Link the rule here.

Under the "Offsite Rules" section of our site rules. RM97 has repeatedly bothered the author over various powerscaling questions (I can give examples if needed), which I would hope we don't accept here.

Site Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is a community with a large number of active users, most of whom are dedicated to discussing and indexing statistics of characters from a variety of fictional franchises. However, maintaining proper conduct and behavior among the large and active user base of this community...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Dereck03]

Under the "Offsite Rules" section of our site rules. RM97 has repeatedly bothered the author over various powerscaling questions (I can give examples if needed), which I would hope we don't accept here.

Site Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is a community with a large number of active users, most of whom are dedicated to discussing and indexing statistics of characters from a variety of fictional franchises. However, maintaining proper conduct and behavior among the large and active user base of this community...

vsbattles.fandom.com

2 in 2019, 1 in 2020 and 1 in 2023 and the last one is not even a powerscaling question, but one where he found a curiosity that Re:Creators shares universe with another work of the author, so 3 questions, literally 3 and 4 years ago, that is not pester or harass at all, it would be understandable if there were dozens of questions about powerscaling or more over the years but there is not.

And heck, he didn't even scaled re:creators in this wiki but on his wiki.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2 in 2019, 1 in 2020 and 1 in 2023 and the last one is not even a powerscaling question, but one where he found a curiosity that Re:Creators shares universe with another work of the author, so 3 questions, literally 3 and 4 years ago, that is not pester or harass at all, it would be understandable if there were dozens of questions about powerscaling or more over the years but there is not.

That's not what the rule means and you know it. We are not allowed to ask authors leading questions about how strong their characters are, end of story. Doesn't matter how many or how few of those questions are asked, it's NEVER acceptable.

 

[Dereck03]

The rule says that you should not and it is frowned upon to bother authors about these topics, not that it is forbidden to ask them or that it is NEVER acceptable, go change the rule if that is what you want.

And there is a reason for the existence of the GoW, which are statements made by the authors derived from frequently asked or directed questions by the users, otherwise they would not exist in VSB.

 

[RM97]

Regarding the WoG statements, I have explicitly asked Antvasima about it last year, and this is what he had to say.

But I am pretty sure there are not any WOG statements regarding the strength of a character, but rather clarifications on some stuffs in the setting accompanied by scans with elaborate answers. If there are any such questions that violates the rules for WoG in this wiki, then feel free to remove them as they are only secondary sources for confirmation of already proven stuff.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The rule says that you should not and it is frowned upon to bother authors about these topics, not that it is forbidden to ask them or that it is NEVER acceptable, go change the rule if that is what you want.

Damn it's crazy how this isn't true

Regarding the WoG statements, I have explicitly asked Antvasima about it last year, and this is what he had to say.

But I am pretty sure there are not any WOG statements regarding the strength of a character, but rather clarifications on some stuffs in the setting accompanied by scans with elaborate answers. If there are any such questions that violates the rules for WoG in this wiki, then feel free to remove them as they are only secondary sources for confirmation of already proven stuff.

Yeah I'm not gonna take Ant's word on this when you excluded the obvious context of you being a powerscaler asking powerscaling-centric questions to the author, which I've already been told is not allowed. I mean, "infinite hyperdimensions out of infinite possibilities", "create the concept of dimensions", and "conceptual transcendent force" are, in no uncertain terms, powerscaling bait. I've seen this exact same shit with the fake DBH and PoC scans - Don't try and deny the fact that you asked these for the explicit purpose of upgrading Re:Creators beyond what is reasonable.

 

[Dereck03]

Damn it's crazy how this isn't true

There is nothing here to prove, and furthermore that means nothing unless they change the rule itself. And yes, you would have told him not to bother the author, but that would have been better in 2019 and 20, not literally 4 years later.

Yeah I'm not gonna take Ant's word on this when you excluded the obvious context of you being a powerscaler asking powerscaling-centric questions to the author, which I've already been told is not allowed. I mean, "infinite hyperdimensions out of infinite possibilities", "create the concept of dimensions", and "conceptual transcendent force" are, in no uncertain terms, powerscaling bait. I've seen this exact same shit with the fake DBH and PoC scans - Don't try and deny the fact that you asked these for the explicit purpose of upgrading Re:Creators beyond what is reasonable.

If you actually read the blog you would know that RM97 asks these questions based on the context of the series.
"infinite hyperdimensions out of infinite possibilities" (Exist within the Hounds of Tindalos section and the Angled space explanations)
create the concept of dimensions" (By existing in the storyworlds already exist by default and is created by the imaginative force, and what the author does is to emphasize what he himself said in the guidebook)
conceptual transcendent force (Is shown in the section that explains that abyss is something that exists beyond the world of god along with the imaginative force)

So as he said, they are literally questions based on what is shown in the series and the guidebooks, nothing made up. So based on this, then we will remove any use of GoW from all verses, nice.

But for me, i don't care if they are removed or not. So your excuse of using it to justify upgrading Re:Creators beyond what is reasonable is invalid because it is all in the series, novelization and guidebook and because this is at best they are just supportive evidence of already existing feats.

 

[RM97]

Yeah I'm not gonna take Ant's word on this when you excluded the obvious context of you being a powerscaler asking powerscaling-centric questions to the author, which I've already been told is not allowed. I mean, "infinite hyperdimensions out of infinite possibilities", "create the concept of dimensions", and "conceptual transcendent force" are, in no uncertain terms, powerscaling bait. I've seen this exact same shit with the fake DBH and PoC scans - Don't try and deny the fact that you asked these for the explicit purpose of upgrading Re:Creators beyond what is reasonable.

How is it powerscaling-centric questions when half of it is already in the series?
The first statement is done long ago and shouldn't be used given the rule, however, its how Angled Space was formed in the series, via possibilities. The second and third are something that ties with how every aspect of creation is created on a conceptual level? Not to mention, the author never answers what I said but explains the second one as a dimension originally existing (Angled Space in Lovecraft) but he created it as part of the storyworlds for the anime, and third one as "A force that created everything but doesn't govern them" which is whats implied in series and explained in guidebook.
But like I said, it doesn't really matter considering the author statements are just confirmation for things already shown/explained/implied in the series. So whether they can be used or not is not an issue since they just happen to confirm what has been shown/explained/implied in the series.