Question about dragon ball universe size

[Zamasu_Chan]

One more thing I'd like to add. Daizenshuu 4 is not even the complete deal. Daizenshuu 4 was released when Dragon Ball was probably still not finished iirc. And the smallest guidebook out of all iirc. And as we know, Akira Toriyama conjured up the story as he went along drawing the manga. So info in Daizenshuu 4 is subject to change. Daizenshuu 7 is the better and technically a complete version since it was released much after the end of DB canon. It is also advertised as The Dragon Ball Encyclopedia that contains all things Dragon Ball and we can say that since it is the latest, it technically retcons all previous versions in case there are discrepancies. This is also a reason why 7 is much more popular than any other previous version.

Also this isn’t true. I was released October 9, 1995 while Z ended in August 5, 1995. Two months.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Two canon statements. NESW galaxies aren’t actual galaxies.

AKM, if the NESW galaxies exist in canon and the countless galaxies we see in DBS are canon, then please give evidence why they’re regular galaxies and why they’re called areas in the first place.

I was gonna give a longer reply but Zamasu gave me the opportunity to shorten my comment.

The reply to this would be "B-but the Daizenshuu said that there are 4 galaxies".

That is also not true. Sorry if this sounds repetitive but it's important.

The Daizenshuu 7 itself states that the "NWES Galaxy/Galaxies" are just denominations of areas and not literal galaxies. This is also present in the raws.



The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies.

Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.

And about Herms :



Herms initially leaves space to the "4 galaxies" interpretation as in 4 galaxies in the literal sense. But he was already doubting this.

perhaps "Area" is the more accurate term that the Kaio use when talking among themselves (like with North and South Kaio), while "galaxy" is a more descriptive term they use when talking to the universe's inhabitants (like with North Kaio and the Great Elder)?

Herms here already brought up the possibility of the "NEWS Galaxies" being just denominations. Although he never confirmed anything. So this ain't evidence against the Daizenshuu. Rather it vaguely supports it.

But then, in his fan guide...

These 4 galaxies serve as the governing areas for the gods, and so each one is overseen by the corresponding Kaio and Kaioshin. In fact, Daizenshuu 7 says that the "galaxies" of DB are merely administrational units used by the gods, and so there's nothing stopping races from travelling from one galaxy to another, provided they have the technology to do so. So basically, these "galaxies" don't have much reality as physical divisions, and are sort of like the boarders between countries. It's not clear what significance the cardinal directions could have in space, but the map of the DB world shows what appear to be division lines between galaxies engraved into the living world's outer walls, so that might have something to do with it.

Herms brings up the Daizenshuu, and he himself admits that the "NEWS galaxies" are just denominations/units used by the gods to supervise the various areas of the universe, which is filled with actual galaxies.

Also I wanna bring up the fact that Herms mentions that Toriyama's map of the universe says that the universe is splitted along the 4 cardinal directions, and not in "4 galaxies".

So no, Herms never supported the "Daizenshuu said the universe is splitted into 4 literal galaxies". This was just the result of scans that have been taken out of context.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I was gonna give a longer reply but Zamasu gave me the opportunity to shorten my comment.

The reply to this would be "B-but the Daizenshuu said that there are 4 galaxies".

That is also not true. Sorry if this sounds repetitive but it's important.

The Daizenshuu 7 itself states that the "NWES Galaxy/Galaxies" are just denominations of areas and not literal galaxies. This is also present in the raws.



The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies.

Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.

And about Herms :



Herms initially leaves space to the "4 galaxies" interpretation as in 4 galaxies in the literal sense. But he was already doubting this.

perhaps "Area" is the more accurate term that the Kaio use when talking among themselves (like with North and South Kaio), while "galaxy" is a more descriptive term they use when talking to the universe's inhabitants (like with North Kaio and the Great Elder)?

Herms here already brought up the possibility of the "NEWS Galaxies" being just denominations. Although he never confirmed anything. So this ain't evidence against the Daizenshuu. Rather it vaguely supports it.

But then, in his fan guide...

These 4 galaxies serve as the governing areas for the gods, and so each one is overseen by the corresponding Kaio and Kaioshin. In fact, Daizenshuu 7 says that the "galaxies" of DB are merely administrational units used by the gods, and so there's nothing stopping races from travelling from one galaxy to another, provided they have the technology to do so. So basically, these "galaxies" don't have much reality as physical divisions, and are sort of like the boarders between countries. It's not clear what significance the cardinal directions could have in space, but the map of the DB world shows what appear to be division lines between galaxies engraved into the living world's outer walls, so that might have something to do with it.

Herms brings up the Daizenshuu, and he himself admits that the "NEWS galaxies" are just denominations/units used by the gods to supervise the various areas of the universe, which is filled with actual galaxies.

Also I wanna bring up the fact that Herms mentions that Toriyama's map of the universe says that the universe is splitted along the 4 cardinal directions, and not in "4 galaxies".

So no, Herms never supported the "Daizenshuu said the universe is splitted into 4 literal galaxies". This was just the result of scans that have been taken out of context.

Herms said that? Wonder why AKM didn’t bring it up.

 

[AKM sama]

Bro. Herms brought up possibilities. And later said that the Daizenshuu goes with one of those possibilities. That being of 4 galaxies. The cardinal directions is referring to North, East, West, and South since that's the basis of division.

"So basically, the series itself establishes the each Kaio rules the galaxy/galaxies of a cardinal direction, and that there are also “Areas” corresponding to the cardinal directions involved somehow. Toriyama’s map of the DB world labels the universe as being divided up along the 4 cardinal directions, but says nothing of galaxies or "Areas". Essentially there are two possibilities: that there are 4 galaxies (NSEW) that are also called “Areas”, or there are 4 Areas (NSEW), that contain many galaxies. The guidebooks all go with the first option (when they don’t just leave the whole thing as vague as the manga, that is): Daizenshuu 7 twice says that there are 4 galaxies. DBZ Son Goku Densetsu and the Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume both say so too. "

He blatantly says that the guidebooks go with the interpretation that there are 4 galaxies, which are also the 4 areas, named after directions. What is so hard to understand. This requires basic comprehension.

 

[AKM sama]

Two canon statements. NESW galaxies aren’t actual galaxies.

Where is it stated? I don't see such a statement anywhere. If you're saying the original manga implied there being only 4 galaxies based on King Kai's statement, then that just means DBS retconned it. And the statements in Daizenshuu about there being 4 galaxies are also in support of that, while the other ones are contradictory. You just ended the debate. Thank you.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Where is it stated? I don't see such a statement anywhere. If you're saying the original manga implied there being only 4 galaxies based on King Kai's statement, then that just means DBS retconned it. And the statements in Daizenshuu about there being 4 galaxies are also in support of that, while the other ones are contradictory. You just ended the debate. Thank you.

“Northern worlds” is still a term they use in DBS. Where’s the retcon?

You also completely ignore what Otto wrote about Herms:

perhaps "Area" is the more accurate term that the Kaio use when talking among themselves (like with North and South Kaio), while "galaxy" is a more descriptive term they use when talking to the universe's inhabitants (like with North Kaio and the Great Elder)?

 

[AKM sama]

"Northern Lord" of "worlds in U10".

Not northern worlds.

Worlds in this context is probably referring to planets/celestial bodies.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Literally ignored most of my comment, but oh well.

 

[AKM sama]

You also completely ignore what Otto wrote about Herms:

perhaps "Area" is the more accurate term that the Kaio use when talking among themselves (like with North and South Kaio), while "galaxy" is a more descriptive term they use when talking to the universe's inhabitants (like with North Kaio and the Great Elder)?

This tells us nothing except that the 4 galaxies can also be called 4 areas. A galaxy being referred to as an area in a universe is the same as calling a country an area on our planet.

At this point I will just wait for LordGriffin to say what he wanted to say.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Daizenshuu says there are 4 galaxies, thus it's contradictory

The daizenshuu actually says those "North/West/South/East Galaxies" are just denominations to supervise the various areas of the universe.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

"Northern Lord" of "worlds in U10".

Not northern worlds.

Worlds in this context is probably referring to planets/celestial bodies.

My fault OG. Titles like the north are still shown to be relevant.

This tells us nothing except that the 4 galaxies can also be called 4 areas. A galaxy being referred to as an area in a universe is the same as calling a country an area on our planet.

Then you’re asserting that for all of Z they meant 4 galaxies. Like I said nothing contradictory at all. If the manga calls them galaxies, whatever. The daizenshuu also calls them galaxies but explains they’re infinitely expanding and hundreds of millions of light years.

Describing the characteristics of a galaxy that don’t match with real galaxies isn’t a contradiction.

That’s like saying King Kai calling his planet a “planet” is a contradiction because it’s so small. Do stop the name fallacy.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Sorry it took me so long but I had some other stuff to do but before I had some stuff to do.

Anyway, does anyone remember where the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 tournament took place? Was it near the edges of both universes?

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry it took me so long but I had some other stuff to do but before I had some stuff to do.

Anyway, does anyone remember where the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 tournament took place? Was it near the edges of both universes?

In the manga it says that the tournament will be held in the neutral zone.

And it takes 2 hours and 10 minutes flying there from Beerus' planet. (It takes 35 minutes to fly between Earth and Beerus' planet)

So if it really is in between their Universes, then it is definitely not an infinite distance away.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Sorry it took me so long but I had some other stuff to do but before I had some stuff to do.

Anyway, does anyone remember where the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 tournament took place? Was it near the edges of both universes?

In the neutral space between universes. An area not belonging to either u6 nor u7.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Nah anime doesn't have anti feats, manga does because of gas.

Both Beerus and Whis takes ample time to reach finite distance (nebulas, his planet to Earth, etc)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Beerus’s planet is farther away than the realm of the Kai.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So in the scene of Super Shenron's summoning (1:20). Is that his light expanding between both universes, or are those just two galaxies? Because if those are the universes 6 and 7 from the outside look they aren't infinite.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Both Beerus and Whis takes ample time to reach finite distance (nebulas, his planet to Earth, etc)

Every single time that whis went traveled, he never went full speed. The only ever time he did go full speed was when he traveled the fastest he's ever gone from beerus' place to earth which is a greater distance than the realm of kai like zamasu said (which should be infinite).

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Beerus' planet is only across the universe from Earth, no?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Beerus' planet is only across the universe from Earth, no?

No it location in the macrocosm is never confirmed and Goku can't teleport from it to earth easily but he can do it from the earth to the supreme kai realm which is outside the living world.

 

[Damage3245]

No it location in the macrocosm is never confirmed and Goku can't teleport from it to earth easily but he can do it from the earth to the supreme kai realm which is outside the living world.

Apparently it is in the living world, not the Other World, but the exact location is unknown. At least according to the Chouzenshuu 1 it seems.

It's really looking like the Dragon Ball universe is not infinite.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

People are talking as if the fate of the thread has already been decided. How ironic.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Beerus' planet is only across the universe from Earth, no?

Narration once described Beerus’ world as “across the universe” relative to a point in the living world

 

[Nullflowerblush]

ブルマ、トランクスと一緒にリゾート地へ家族旅行に出かけるベジータ！かつてトランクスとした遊園地へ連れて行く約束を守ろうというのだ。それにしてもベジータらしからぬ家族サービスにブルマとトランクスは大満足！しかし、ベジータは、こうしている間も修業しているであろう悟空のことがどうしても気になる……

Vegeta goes on a family vacation to a resort with Bulma and Trunks! He is trying to keep a promise he made to Trunks to take him to an amusement park. Nevertheless, Bulma and Trunks are very satisfied with the family service, which is not typical of Vegeta! However, Vegeta is inevitably concerned about Goku, who is probably still training during these events...

一方、宇宙の彼方では39年ぶりに目覚めた破壊神ビルスが、予知夢で見た自分のライバルになり得るであろう何者かの名前を思い出すべく奮闘していた。果たしてその者の名前は！？

Meanwhile, on the other side of the universe, Beerus, the God of Destruction, who has awakened for the first time in 39 years, is struggling to remember the name of someone he saw in a prophetic dream who could be his rival. What is that person's name?

(Source)

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Apparently it is in the living world, not the Other World, but the exact location is unknown. At least according to the Chouzenshuu 1 it seems.

It's really looking like the Dragon Ball universe is not infinite.

Scan me. I find that a contradiction as the offical manga has Goku claiming in the most recent chapter that he's lucky that whis is "in this realm" who was in the living world implying that beerus' world is in another dimension.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So in the scene of Super Shenron's summoning (1:20). Is that his light expanding between both universes, or are those just two galaxies? Because if those are the universes 6 and 7 from the outside look they aren't infinite.

I pointed this out a while ago. Those are just dimensional walls.

Apparently it is in the living world, not the Other World, but the exact location is unknown. At least according to the Chouzenshuu 1 it seems.

It's really looking like the Dragon Ball universe is not infinite.

Narration once described Beerus’ world as “across the universe” relative to a point in the living world

(Source)

Other side of the universe isn’t a contradiction when the universe is infinite .

 

[Damage3245]

Scan me.

I don't have the scans of that databook. I was going off of the DB Wiki which attributes a reference to that databook.

I find that a contradiction as the offical manga has Goku claiming in the most recent chapter that he's lucky that whis is "in this realm" who was in the living world implying that beerus' world is in another dimension.

Possible, but Whis goes to other places besides Beerus' planet. Goku could just be grateful that he's in the Universe and not off at Angel's place, or another Universe.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

So in the scene of Super Shenron's summoning (1:20). Is that his light expanding between both universes, or are those just two galaxies? Because if those are the universes 6 and 7 from the outside look they aren't infinite.

The Super Dragon Balls are stated to be found between universe 6 and 7....

Both are in the "border" of the Universe.

So yeah, it should

I pointed this out a while ago. Those are just dimensional walls.



Other side of the universe isn’t a contradiction when the universe is infinite .

It shouldn't have other "side" of the Universe if it's truly Infinite, no?

I mean, something infinite shouldn't have one side, becouse it's eternal and never ending.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I don't have the scans of that databook. I was going off of the DB Wiki which attributes a reference to that databook.



Possible, but Whis goes to other places besides Beerus' planet. Goku could just be grateful that he's in the Universe and not off at Angel's place, or another Universe.

I know, but I've never actually seen a scan about that.
He never goes anywhere else except beerus planet and other planets in the living world for food. That's the only places he actually visits and the other universes and zeno's place are only destinations he goes with beerus for specific goals that are not relevant in this example.

The Super Dragon Balls are stated to be found between universe 6 and 7....

Both are in the "border" of the Universe.

So yeah, it should

It shouldn't have other "side" of the Universe if it's truly Infinite, no?

I mean, something infinite shouldn't have one side, becouse it's eternal and never ending.

It can have a border if it's sealed by dimenional walls which are 4D.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It shouldn't have other "side" of the Universe if it's truly Infinite, no?

I mean, something infinite shouldn't have one side, becouse it's eternal and never ending.

Y’all confuse infinity in real life and infinity in fiction a lot and it shows.

If a character covers an infinite distance than they reached the end of their infinite journey. How else do you expect characters to reach their destination with infinite distance?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

It can have a border if it's sealed by dimenional walls which

That's a heavy speculation you know?

I don't think that assuming that those are "dimensional walls" is the safest assumption. I mean, given how universes in DBS are represented as spherical things with a big galaxy showing up iirc. And yellowish light between those were the Super Dragon Ball's shine

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That's a heavy speculation you know?

I don't think that assuming that those are "dimensional walls" is the safest assumption. I mean, given how universes in DBS are represented as spherical things with a big galaxy showing up iirc. And yellowish light between those were the Super Dragon Ball's shine

It's literally stated in the guide books that the marcocosm realms are hermetically sealed from each other and different dimensions fillet mignon.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Y’all confuse infinity in real life and infinity in fiction a lot and it shows.

If a character covers an infinite distance than they reached the end of their infinite journey. How else do you expect characters to reach their destination with infinite distance?

I mean, I know Verses break the laws of physics.

But I don't think that applying the word "fiction" is the solution for the argument.
For example: In DB there is no oxygen in outer space, the same as ours, Gravity exists and works like in our world too iirc, etc...

Also, knowing that DB universe is "based" on ours.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I mean, I know Verses break the laws of physics.

But I don't think that applying the word "fiction" is the solution for the argument.
For example: In DB there is no oxygen in outer space, the same as ours, Gravity exists and works like in our world too iirc, etc...

Also, knowing that DB universe is "based" on ours.

Nah this is a basic concept. You just don’t seem to understand it. Infinite speed characters are that fast because they reached the end of infinity.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Nah this is a basic concept. You just don’t seem to understand it. Infinite speed characters are that fast because they reached the end of infinity.

I mean, yeah I understand it, but you said that we are confusing infinity in real life and in fiction, although our ratings are based in real life physcs iirc, or at least that's what they told me.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I mean, yeah I understand it, but you said that we are confusing infinity in real life and in fiction, although our ratings are based in real life physcs iirc, or at least that's what they told me.

Ok. I see your particular misunderstanding. My point still stands tho.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Is the Universe diagram the same in DBZ as it is in DBS? Yes or No?



It does when you're trying to use Yukon's planet, which was introduced in the series in 1994, to prove the existence of something that was introduced out almost two decades later. You are retroactively applying a new cosmology.

Why is that a point? In what universe does the order which an information is delivered has any weight on how valid said information is? It doesn't.

Yakon proves there is darkness beyond the observable universe.

Daizenshuu adds to that, stating the said darkness, which was already presented in the show, does in fact exist, and is infinite in size.

Chouzenshuu doubles down on that information in 2013.

Dragon Ball Super says there are other universe beyond U7 macrocosm.

NOTHING contradicts Yakon, or retcons it. The fact the darkness was proven to exists before it was actually stated to be infinite is NOT AN ARGUMENT to say it's invalid. The order of factors does not change the product.

Arceus, I've been catching up with this thread for the past hour, and this particular point drove me nuts.

 

[Vietthai96]

People talking about infinite speed already. Actually there are two instances of infinite speed, Goku SSBKKx10 intercepted Hit in the middle of his timeskip which somehow deemed as outlier, and then Super Shenron feat in the last episode where he appeared in 11 universes at the same time.

At this point i'm convinced that peoples watching Dragon Ball to downplay it

 

[GodlyCharmander]

People talking about infinite speed already. Actually there are two instances of infinite speed, Goku SSBKKx10 intercepted Hit in the middle of his timeskip which somehow deemed as outlier,

"somehow"? At the time, it made sense.
A character constantly shown to be MFTL+ is suddenly "infinite"? It is an outlier, it is INFINITELY an outlier. I'm pretty sure we have a filter for outliers, with a set of questions, and at the time, Goku's infinite feat checked all the marks.

Also, context, Goku said, due to Kaioken x10, he was beyond the time skip, implying it was through sheer power (much like Jiren), and it's illogical.
"x10 my speed = infinite speed"
That'd mean Blue Goku has infinite speed and should just go through the timeskip with sheer speed, the multiplier blantantly creates circular scaling.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

People talking about infinite speed already. Actually there are two instances of infinite speed, Goku SSBKKx10 intercepted Hit in the middle of his timeskip which somehow deemed as outlier, and then Super Shenron feat in the last episode where he appeared in 11 universes at the same time.

At this point i'm convinced that peoples watching Dragon Ball to downplay it

The hell does it always gotta be downplay? There was a legitimate reason we did not give Goku infinite speed.