Question about dragon ball universe size

[Vietthai96]

The hell does it always gotta be downplay? There was a legitimate reason we did not give Goku infinite speed.

Normally yes outlier. However like i said, Super Shenron's feat and Goku feat is consistent with infinite speed feat, there is two instances of infinite speed which support the idea of DB capable of infinite speed. You guys just talk like hey i don't see any infinite speed so no infinite universe. Here i gave two instances of infinite speed.

What next, Super Shenron feats is also outlier??

 

[Vietthai96]

Also, context, Goku said, due to Kaioken x10, he was beyond the time skip, implying it was through sheer power (much like Jiren), and it's illogical.

Do you even know that at the time of Goku using KKx10, Hit still can't stop time, he skip through time to attack not stop everyone in time. He only stop time when Goku SBBKKx10 fire the Kamehameha and Goku stop dead in one place. Also this kinda derail anyway

 

[Arthex]

Probably the only q&a thread with 7 pages of argument, almost seems like a crt don't ya all think?

 

[Vietthai96]

Probably the only q&a thread with 7 pages of argument, almost seems like a crt don't ya all think?

It was a CRT already, but i think we should stop this kind of comment, the thread is long enough, just focus on debating

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I pointed this out a while ago. Those are just dimensional walls.

I see, I looked again, there does seem to be dimensional walls around them. So I assume the logic your using is once you step through the barrier you enter the infinite space?

If I'm understanding the argument for infinite sized universe, it goes...

Dragon Ball has an observable universe filled with galaxies, in the guides it states that the universe has infinite darkness beyond the observable universe and to support this in verse, Yakon comes from a place in the universe that light has not reached meaning there is darkness beyond the normal universe in canon. Add in the other stuff from the guides talking about infinite stuff would support this.

So I'm not knowledgeable enough to say whether or not the what is stated in this thread regarding those scans are legitimate but I'll go off the assumption that they are. Then I "would" agree with infinite sized universes in Dragon Ball but only if the translations are legitimate.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I see, I looked again, there does seem to be dimensional walls around them. So I assume the logic your using is once you step through the barrier you enter the infinite space?

If I'm understanding the argument for infinite sized universe, it goes...

Dragon Ball has an observable universe filled with galaxies, in the guides it states that the universe has infinite darkness beyond the observable universe and to support this in verse, Yakon comes from a place in the universe that light has not reached meaning there is darkness beyond the normal universe in canon. Add in the other stuff from the guides talking about infinite stuff would support this.

So I'm not knowledgeable enough to say whether or not the what is stated in this thread regarding those scans are legitimate but I'll go off the assumption that they are. Then I "would" agree with infinite sized universes in Dragon Ball but only if the translations are legitimate.

Ok. Sounds fair.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Normally yes outlier. However like i said, Super Shenron's feat and Goku feat is consistent with infinite speed feat, there is two instances of infinite speed which support the idea of DB capable of infinite speed. You guys just talk like hey i don't see any infinite speed so no infinite universe. Here i gave two instances of infinite speed.

What next, Super Shenron feats is also outlier??

Goku does not scale to Super Shenron, nor does anyone besides arguably Zeno, ergo its feat does not support Goku’s.

For Super Shenron’s feat to be a supporting feat it actually needs to scale to the cast.

 

[Vietthai96]

Goku does not scale to Super Shenron, nor does anyone besides arguably Zeno, ergo its feat does not support Goku’s.

For Super Shenron’s feat to be a supporting feat it actually needs to scale to the cast.

1. I never said Goku scale to Super Shenron feat, his feat is intercepted Hit in the middle of timeskip, it is an infinite speed. But right now wiki treated it as resistance to timestop despite at that time Hit still skip time not stop time. But anyway we will talk about this in different topic.

2. I never mention Super Shenron speed and then scale him to everyone (abeit Gtand Priest could be scaled). The reason i mention Super Shenron's feat is because he has a legit infinite speed, it is a counter-argument for people who said: we never see any character demonstrated infinite speed visually in verse. That what i mean

Wrap this up, the reason i mention Goku vs Hit and Super Shenron's feat is because infinite speed actually explain how Goku capable of intercepting Hit in the middle of his timeskip, and Shenron feat is infinite speed which supported the fact that infinite speed is not impossible for the verse and there are characters capable of performing the speed

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Goku vs hit is an Immeasurable speed feat not infinite. He physically moved into the future.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Guys speed is irrelevant here.
Size of Universe may influence speed feats, but speed feats don't decide fate of how big the universe is. Speed feats have no bearing on size and scope of cosmology.

Universe maybe finite or infinite but it doesn't give rat's ass about speed of creatures living inside itself.

This is derailing now.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I concur with Gilver.

 

[Vietthai96]

I also concur with Gilver, we should stop using the logic that character visually is not infinite speed as a counter-argument against the size of the universe

 

[Antvasima]

At this point i'm convinced that peoples watching Dragon Ball to downplay it

Given that everybody here like Dragon Ball as far as I am aware, that seems very unlikely.

The issue is that more staff members have sufficient knowledge about Dragon Ball to give proper evaluations of the information in content revision threads.

 

[Vietthai96]

Given that everybody here like Dragon Ball as far as I am aware, that seems very unlikely.

The issue is that more staff members have sufficient knowledge about Dragon Ball to give proper evaluations of the information in content revision threads.

1. Well it is a kind of joke anyway. However i'm terribly sorry if that offended anyone, i have no intent to do that

2. This is actually a wrong assessment. You can't say somehow staffs is better than all normal user. You trust staffs, i understand, however you can't just dismiss normal user and automatically place all assessment from staffs above everyone else. No offend to you Ant

Anyway we should go back to the topic

 

[Antvasima]

1) No problem.

2) Given that I usually don't have the time or competence to properly evaluate content revision threads, I have to rely on the judgements of other staff members, who usually got their positions by being rational and reliable.

 

[Arthex]

Bump?

 

[Vietthai96]

Given that I usually don't have the time or competence to properly evaluate content revision threads, I have to rely on the judgements of other staff members, who usually got their positions by being rational and reliable.

Again no offend, but i feel the need to reply to this statement. Being staffs doesn't mean somehow they are perfect being, everyone have their own bias even staffs themselves. I know and respect what staffs already done and currently doing, however you can't just always relying on staffs while dismissing normal member. This lead to the situation where heavily knowledgable and contributed normal members leaving due to them feeling unwanted and unneeded, their effort is is nothing. One of those example is SSJRyu1, he leaving the wiki is a heavy lost. To be honest i don't want another case like that

 

[Damage3245]

Again no offend, but i feel the need to reply to this statement. Being staffs doesn't mean somehow they are perfect being, everyone have their own bias even staffs themselves. I know and respect what staffs already done and currently doing, however you can't just always relying on staffs while dismissing normal member. This lead to the situation where heavily knowledgable and contributed normal members leaving due to them feeling unwanted and unneeded, their effort is is nothing. One of those example is SSJRyu1, he leaving the wiki is a heavy lost. To be honest i don't want another case like that

Nobody ever claimed that staff were perfect.

Heavily knowledgeable ordinary members can be heavily biased as well sometimes. Hence why we have staff and don't leave decisions up to the people who claim to know the most.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Nobody ever claimed that staff were perfect.

Heavily knowledgeable ordinary members can be heavily biased as well sometimes. Hence why we have staff and don't leave decisions up to the people who claim to know the most.

I think Vietthai96 is referring to real and perceived bias towards staff members based on nothing but the position and how that can cause trouble if I understand him right.

 

[Antvasima]

Again no offend, but i feel the need to reply to this statement. Being staffs doesn't mean somehow they are perfect being, everyone have their own bias even staffs themselves. I know and respect what staffs already done and currently doing, however you can't just always relying on staffs while dismissing normal member. This lead to the situation where heavily knowledgable and contributed normal members leaving due to them feeling unwanted and unneeded, their effort is is nothing. One of those example is SSJRyu1, he leaving the wiki is a heavy lost. To be honest i don't want another case like that

I don't claim that anybody here is perfect, and I definitely am far from it myself, but I have to delegate most evaluations for practical reasons that I mentioned earlier, and we need quality control buffers. Even if they are not always right, having some of our most reliable and rational members evaluate threads is our only realistic option in that regard, and I am not able to handle the organisation of this community in any other way.

Also, I do listen to regular members a lot. I just have to mostly rely on the rest of our staff regarding subjects that I am not very knowledgeable about, as I trust their judgements more than my own in these areas and I cannot constantly potentially start fights with and alienate them regarding topics that I have no strong opinions about.

 

[Vietthai96]

Oke, i understand you (a lot), just want to point out something

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Okay. No problem.

If I were to give you a REALLY abridged version of AKM, and Zamasu's points.

Zamasu:

• Daizenshuu has 4 statements saying space is infinite, some which refers to the darkness beyond the observable universe, meaning there are finite planets and stars, but infinite space.
• Yakon's planet proves there is Darkness beyond the observable universe.

AKM:

• Daizenshuu is self-contradictory, therefore it should not be relied on.
  • Examples of self-contradiction would be how the Daizenshuu states there are 4 galaxies in the universe (North, East, South and West, or NESW), while also stating there are countless in other pages, or calling the same NESW Galaxies "areas", official material shows countless galaxies. This was confirmed to be the case by herms, yada yada. Daizenshuu is too unreliable to change the cosmology to infinite due to that.

Zamasu's rebuttal:

• That's out of context, and likely a mistranslation.
  • Some of the "4 galaxy" statements are actually inaccurate, and say "4 areas"
  • Even the ones that keep the 4 galaxy statement, it isn't self contradictory. Because the Daizenshuu itself contextualized the Cardinal 4 Galaxies as being just a name for the areas and sections the Kais rule, they are not literally Galaxies, and have been stated to be expanding and be millions of light-years long, which is bigger than actual galaxies. Basically, the "NESW" Galaxies are just nomenclatures for cardinal directions commanded by the Kais, not literal galaxies. The DB universe has these 4 Cardinal Galaxies, and countless galaxies at the same time, as they represent different things. Cardinal Galaxies being sections, and the "countless galaxies" beinh literally just galaxies.

AKM's rebuttal:

• Then, it is self contradictory, the Daizenshuu states galaxy is both a "gathering of local planets" and exists infinitely, and also states a galaxy is one the four sections of the universe, expanding, and millions of light-years wide? It literally uses two definitions for one thing, that's self-contradictory.

And done. Everyone provided their bit of evidence for what was said above, and the back and forth was about how the two definitions of galaxies are not contradictions, because one represent A, and other represents B.

This is a VERY abridged version of the debate, and if @AKM sama or @Zamasu_Chan feel like I misrepresented their point, please forgive me, and correct me.

 

[Vietthai96]

Zamasu's rebuttal:

• That's out of context, and look and likely a mistranslation

adding more point to this, AKM's scan is a cropped scan, not a full scan. Thus leading to the taken everything out of context

 

[Jinsama]

tbh i dont want canon dragonball to become this powerful but im neutral.

ihmo super shenron should get "possibly multiversal" because of all the statements from games to anime and manga "no wish is beyond super shenrons power" which means he has infinte power/reality warping

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Bruh

 

[thetechmaster36]

ihmo super shenron should get "possibly multiversal" because of all the statements from games to anime and manga "no wish is beyond super shenrons power" which means he has infinte power/reality warping

Bruhus Momentus

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

This is Madness!!!

 

[Jinsama]

thats why i said "possibly multiversal" via ton of statements and no anti feats

 

[thetechmaster36]

thats why i said "possibly multiversal" via ton of statements and no anti feats

1. You can't cross-scale the statements from the anime, manga, or games. The anime and manga are different from each other, and the games are not even canon to either of them.
2. Completely derailing and off-topic from this thread, so keep it out of here.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

so keep it out of here.

Damn your savage

 

[Jinsama]

1. You can't cross-scale the statements from the anime, manga, or games. The anime and manga are different from each other, and the games are not even canon to either of them.
2. Completely derailing and off-topic from this thread, so keep it out of here.

1. i know ... ?
2. oh ok sorry

 

[Vietthai96]

I.............................................................i'm................................................speechless

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Honestly canon dragon ball should be easily low complex multiversal, there's way more evidence than you think. Zeno and super shenron should be outright low outerversal given so many boundless statements.

 

[Vietthai96]

please stop, we not going into that territory lmao

 

[KLOL506]

Can't even tell if it's sarcasm anymore

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Bruh. Can we stop with the derailment, please?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Then, it is self contradictory, the Daizenshuu states galaxy is both a "gathering of local planets" and exists infinitely, and also states a galaxy is one the four sections of the universe, expanding, and millions of light-years wide? It literally uses two definitions for one thing, that's self-contradictory.

It's not using two definitions for one thing, it's using the same terminology for two different things. I thought the guide made that abundantly clear. It isn't a contradiction.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It's not using two definitions for one thing, it's using the same terminology for two different things. I thought the guide made that abundantly clear. It isn't a contradiction.

why are you telling me that?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

why are you telling me that?

I am not, I just responding to the argument.