Question about dragon ball universe size

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

According to the opposing side's logic, infinite speed as a concept can't exist because the end/destination of infinity isn't there.

Obviously that's nonsense, since infinite series can technically end. Examples for this are Supertasks, in which infinite numbers of steps are completed in a finite time. Another example is the sets of ordinal numbers which contains infinite ordinals (or at the very least non-finite numbers)

 

[Jinsama]

your universe doenst have to be infinte for infinte speed & goku has some infinte speed speed

in 0 time a photon remains in the same place and what goku did there is only possible via infinte speed and he still scales to Jirens feat

im still neutral when it comes to infinte speed goku & dbs cosmology

 

[Antvasima]

We can't make a discussion rule almost every time a DB thread is made.

Well, if very long discussion threads about the same topic are repeated several times, it seems warranted at least.

 

[Antvasima]

That's another thing, an Infinite universe can still have an edge, even though you can't reach it

This is similar to how there are Infinite points (and uncountably many of them) between the numbers 0 and 1, and despite that you can have both an edge (0 and 1), and a center (0.5)

Obviously that's nonsense, since infinite series can technically end. Examples for this are Supertasks, in which infinite numbers of steps are completed in a finite time. Another example is the sets of ordinal numbers which contains infinite ordinals (or at the very least non-finite numbers)

Hmm. Maybe, but it seems rather farfetched for a rather straightforward show like Dragon Ball to introduce concepts such as an edge to infinity.

I think that the issue here is that we need rather self-evident evidence for an extreme change such as infinite speed, and here the evidence seems somewhat conflicted/uncertain. The DB universe might be infinite, with following infinite speed, or it might not be, and we usually try to go with the safer option in such cases.

 

[Antvasima]

When a new discussion rule is made literally every time there is a Dragon Ball CRT, then yeah, we got a good reason to worry. While I definitely understand that the staff are doing their job and I have a lot of respect to them, not everything can be solved with a discussion rule

I suppose that is a valid point, but again, it depends on to what degree our staff have been forced to argue about it, which takes time from other tasks.

 

[Antvasima]

Ain't that the point of this site tho, to argue topics? Somethings wrong if you are getting tired of what you were "hired" to do. It's like a basketball player not playing basketball because he's tired of facing good teams. Argument isn't you should have to sit there and debate several remade arguments but at least take them at face value. New arguments can be made of old material and if you're getting tired of that, I don't understand what this site is supposed to be. I can't even blame the mods tho, if this site continues to only accept the staffs word and many arguments are being made, this is bound to happen.

Our staff are volunteers. They are doing this in their free time to help out, not because they get paid for it, and there are always many tasks to take care of, and finite time and energy available.

 

[Antvasima]

Actually it is not that new, but AKM ignore them all time

Actually, only AKM pushing for DB discussion rule, i never saw other staffs member pushing for it. And with all due respect, i said many time before, discussion rule is really discouraging people to discuss and revise the series, and feel like our presence is not needed

Okay. I think that AKM is tired of constantly arguing about Dragon Ball to try to keep the statistics reliable though, and I cannot start to risk alienating the most valuable people helping me out to keep this site running by constantly arguing with them about issues that I have no strong opinions about.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Hmm. Maybe, but it seems rather farfetched for a rather straightforward show like Dragon Ball to introduce concepts such as an edge to infinity.

That is not the point. This is an answer to those who saying the universe is not infinite since it have a center and edges. As I showed several examples against this, this is false. You seems to misunderstand what I meant when I used the examples as I did not said Dragon Ball used them

I think that the issue here is that we need rather self-evident evidence for an extreme change such as infinite speed, and here the evidence seems somewhat conflicted/uncertain. The DB universe might be infinite, with following infinite speed, or it might not be, and we usually try to go with the safer option in such cases.

Infinite speed comes naturally if someone crosses the universe and it's inifinite. If the universe turns out to actually be infinite, then those who can cross it will become Infinite speed as well. However, this thread has nothing to do with scaling of the verse

 

[Antvasima]

That is not the point. This is an answer to those who saying the universe is not infinite since it have a center and edges. As I showed several examples against this, this is false. You seems to misunderstand what I meant when I used the examples as I did not said Dragon Ball used them.

Okay.

What other examples?

Infinite speed comes naturally if someone crosses the universe and it's inifinite. If the universe turns out to actually be infinite, then those who can cross it will become Infinite speed as well. However, this thread has nothing to do with scaling of the verse

Not directly, but that is what logically follows from it.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Hmm. Maybe, but it seems rather farfetched for a rather straightforward show like Dragon Ball to introduce concepts such as an edge to infinity.

I think that the issue here is that we need rather self-evident evidence for an extreme change such as infinite speed, and here the evidence seems somewhat conflicted/uncertain. The DB universe might be infinite, with following infinite speed, or it might not be, and we usually try to go with the safer option in such cases.

Lol this is the same show that introduced time travel, alternate realities, alternate timelines and different dimensions.
Also, the cosmology is independant from the ratings it will grant, we first examine the evidence and if it's infinite or not. Then after we determine it, we see how it will affect the rating.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Hmm. Maybe, but it seems rather farfetched for a rather straightforward show like Dragon Ball to introduce concepts such as an edge to infinity.

I think that the issue here is that we need rather self-evident evidence for an extreme change such as infinite speed, and here the evidence seems somewhat conflicted/uncertain. The DB universe might be infinite, with following infinite speed, or it might not be, and we usually try to go with the safer option in such cases.

Technically speaking, it's not an extreme change or a change at all to infinite speed. It's merely just the very basisi of it. If a character can finish crossing an infinite distance, not only does it have an end but it also has a starting point/beginning.

 

[Vietthai96]

Okay. I think that AKM is tired of constantly arguing about Dragon Ball to try to keep the statistics reliable though

To be blunt, more like his own preferred statistics. But anyway, this is derail enough, we should focus on the thread. just please focus on the content of the discussion rather than bring up rule here and there, discussion rule lead to nothing

 

[God900]

just please focus on the content of the discussion rather than bring up rule here and there, discussion rule lead to nothing

I mean, the discussion rule is not delearing, AKM already threatened to create one, and is releated to topic that is being discussed, anyways

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What other examples?

As I said before, between the point 1 and 0 there are inifinitely many points, in fact uncountably infinitely many of them, but there are still the edges of the series of points (0 and 1), as well as a center to this segment (0.5), even though the number of points is infinite

Also, in Cartesian coordinate system, all the axes (that can be in any number of dimensions, including higher dimensions) meet at a central point known as the origin, even though all axes go off to infinity in either sides. That once again proves that something Infinite can certainly have a center

As I said, Supertasks are examples of Infinite series of events that can be completed in a finite time, thus technically "ending" despite being infinite. In fact, Supertasks are applications of Infinite series from math. For example: Imagine you walk one kilometer, and each time you walk half of the remaining distance, you complete a step. As you cross, you'll complete more and more stages in a faster rate, but as we know (and was proven by mathmaticians) that 1/2 + 1/4+ 1/8 +... = 1, meaning you complete infinite steps in a finite time

 

[Antvasima]

As I said before, between the point 1 and 0 there are inifinitely many points, in fact uncountably infinitely many of them, but there are still the edges of the series of points (0 and 1), as well as a center to this segment (0.5), even though the number of points is infinite

Also, in Cartesian coordinate system, all the axes (that can be in any number of dimensions, including higher dimensions) meet at a central point known as the origin, even though all axes go off to infinity in either sides. That once again proves that something Infinite can certainly have a center

As I said, Supertasks are examples of Infinite series of events that can be completed in a finite time, thus technically "ending" despite being infinite. In fact, Supertasks are applications of Infinite series from math. For example: Imagine you walk one kilometer, and each time you walk half of the remaining distance, you complete a step. As you cross, you'll complete more and more stages in a faster rate, but as we know (and was proven by mathmaticians) that 1/2 + 1/4+ 1/8 +... = 1, meaning you complete infinite steps in a finite time

Hmm. Interesting.

So can somebody explain all of the evidence for and against an infinite DB universe in an easy to understand manner please?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

So we directly contacted Herms, and here's what we got :



Basically, in the manga, there's no mention of "4 galaxies", but only of 4 Areas.

The only reason why Daizenshuu mentions both "Areas" and "Galaxies" it's because the last terminology is used in the anime, and the guidebook covers both continuities.

Although I wanna point out that the anime uses "NEWS Area" and "NEWS Galaxy" as interchangeable terms, which further supports the fact that they're only names/denominations used for the various areas of the universe and not actual galaxies, as some people are claiming. Here :




At the end of the day, Herms's statement is actually consistent with the Daizenshuu, which, again, states that the "North/West/East/South Galaxy/Area" are just denominations used by Gods to supervise the infinitely many (actual) galaxies that exist in outer space.

 

[KLOL506]

So we directly contacted Herms, and here's what we got :



Basically, in the manga, there's no mention of "4 galaxies", but only of 4 Areas.

The only reason why Daizenshuu mentions both "Areas" and "Galaxies" it's because the last terminology is used in the anime, and the guidebook covers both continuities.

Although I wanna point out that the anime uses "NEWS Area" and "NEWS Galaxy" as interchangeable terms, which further supports the fact that they're only names/denominations used for the various areas of the universe and not actual galaxies, as some people are claiming. Here :



At the end of the day, Herms's statement is actually consistent with the Daizenshuu, which, again, states that the "North/West/East/South Galaxy/Area" are just denominations used by Gods to supervise the infinitely many galaxies that exist in outer space.

Somebody archive this in case shit goes wrong.

 

[Vietthai96]

i'm going to sleep due to different timezone, well......................will return later

 

[Antvasima]

So we directly contacted Herms, and here's what we got :



Basically, in the manga, there's no mention of "4 galaxies", but only of 4 Areas.

The only reason why Daizenshuu mentions both "Areas" and "Galaxies" it's because the last terminology is used in the anime, and the guidebook covers both continuities.

Although I wanna point out that the anime uses "NEWS Area" and "NEWS Galaxy" as interchangeable terms, which further supports the fact that they're only names/denominations used for the various areas of the universe and not actual galaxies, as some people are claiming. Here :




At the end of the day, Herms's statement is actually consistent with the Daizenshuu, which, again, states that the "North/West/East/South Galaxy/Area" are just denominations used by Gods to supervise the infinitely many galaxies that exist in outer space.

Thank you for helping out. I have deactivated my Twitter access though, so I cannot see his comments. Can somebody copy-paste the questions and answers please?

Also, what logical conclusions can we make from this?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Thank you for helping out. I have deactivated my Twitter access though, so I cannot see his comments. Can somebody copy-paste the questions and answers please?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help.

If the Daizenshuu wildly mixes the anime and manga continuities, perhaps it is unreliable to use then?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Also, what logical conclusions can we make from this?

To sum it up, the Daizenshuu is not a self contradictory source.

The argument was "It states that the universe is divided into 4 galaxies but then it says there's an infinite amount of them, which is contradictory"

Howevee the post above proves that those "4 galaxies" aren't Galaxies in the astronomical sense, but are rather Denominations used by the gods to define 4 different sections of the universe (based on the 4 cardinal directions) , which contains infinitely many galaxies.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to ignore the issue that we do not know for certain when the information within the guidebook applies to the manga or Toei anime continuity though.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Okay. That seems to ignore the issue that we do not know for certain when the information within the guidebook applies to the manga or Toei anime continuity though.

The terminology "NWES Galaxies" is not something that is used in the original manga, which uses "NEWS Areas" , but it's anime (filler) only.

However, As stated by Herms, the Daizenshuu covers both continuities, hence why both terminologies appear (the two terms are interchangeable).

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but again, if, as Herms said, the guidebook uses information from these two continuities interchangeably, how do we know when to apply what to which continuity based on the information within it? It seems rather unreliable to me.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Yes, but again, if, as Herms said, the guidebook uses information from these two continuities interchangeably, how do we know when to apply what to which continuity based on the information within it? It seems rather unreliable to me.

It is pretty easy in most cases to apply. The movies like Broly for example are pretty clearly established as different continuities in the Daizenshuu. Also anime-only stuff like Buuhan's feat is can obviously be only applied to the anime. It's simply a large DB encyclopedia as satted by Toriyama himself

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. What about the information that you used to scale the DB universe to be infinitely large then? How do we know that applies to the DB Super/DB Chou continuities?

 

[thetechmaster36]

If the terms are interchangeable, that sorta doesn't matter whether it's applied to the manga or the anime, no? Regardless of what's used, the context behind both of them are going to mean the same thing.

So whether we use "NSEW Galaxies" or "NSEW Areas", neither one of them are going to mean anything different from each other.

 

[AKM sama]

This is not new information but it is being presented as something new for some reason. Basically, one statement is being looked at in isolation and the context is made to revolve around it. I'll clarify in a bit.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Okay. Noted. What about the information that you used to scale the DB universe to be infinitely large then? How do we know that applies to the DB Super/DB Chou continuities?

The DBZ manga and the DBZ anime share the same cosmology/medium. The Macrocosm map for example, Toriyama made explicitly for the anime at the anime people's request, which then later appeared in DB Chou.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The context was already being twisted when people claimed that the Daizenshuu said "There are literally "4 galaxies"

Which is a straight up lie. Trying to pass such claims as true is dishonest and goes against basic reading and comprehension.

This been pointed out multiple times and yet it has always been ignored.


So if there's someone who's twisting the context, it's definitely not the "pro" side.

 

[AKM sama]

Basically, in the manga, there's no mention of "4 galaxies", but only of 4 Areas.

Herms in that tweet is only talking about the afterlife tournament/buu saga. Not the entire manga. This is just reposting what Zamasu posted about Cipher's twitter thread. The four galaxy comes from King Kai's statement about him being the lord of Northern Galaxy (singular). And the four areas comes from the Buu saga. Nothing new there.

 

[AKM sama]

Have nothing to do with the later sentence where Daizenshuu definitely said that galaxy is just a term for area, zone which used by Kaios for their administrative role.

That's not what the Daizenshuu said. That's Herms interpreting that "galaxy" and "area" are also signifying Kaio's administrative locations. It just means that each galaxy is each Kai's administrative zone. North Galaxy is the administrative zone of North Kai, and so on.

Galaxy is never defined as being an administrative zone for any kai. Galaxy is only defined as a collection of planets and nebula. So wherever you encounter the term galaxy in Daizenshuu, it is going to mean what it is defined as. Not some headcanon definition that is not there.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Herms blatantly says that the words "galaxy" and "area" are used interchangably. There's no denying that

He literally said that the NSEW "galaxies" are not literal galaxies and are basically used as areas for the Kais to govern over

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Herms blatantly says that the words "galaxy" and "area" are used interchangably. There's no denying that

On top of that, The Daizenshuu makes it pretty clear that "Galaxy" In the astronomical sense and "NWES galaxies" are separated terminologies.

The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies.

Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.

The first "Galaxies" is the astronomical term, while the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations of various sections of the universe. It's blatantly stated.

 

[AKM sama]

On top of that, The Daizenshuu makes it pretty clear that "Galaxy" In the astronomical sense and "NWES galaxies" are separated terminologies.

Where? I only see one definition of galaxy.

The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies.

Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.

And this would just mean that there are 4 galaxies, which are also called areas/sections, which are also denominations governed by each Kai. Nothing states that these denominations/areas/sections/galaxies house more galaxies within them. It's just headcanon interpretation.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Where? I only see one definition of galaxy.

It's pretty easy to understand when, because when he talks about the NSEW galaxies, he specifically calls them that, as well as using the word "area" for them. This isn't that hard to understand

And this would just mean that there are 4 galaxies, which are also called areas/sections, which are also denominations governed by each Kai. Nothing states that these denominations/areas/sections/galaxies house more galaxies within them. It's just headcanon interpretation.

No. He literally said that these "galaxies", are actually more like "areas" that the kais govern over, and inside them there are the infinite regular galaxies mentioned in the Daizenshuu. When talking about the NSEW "galaxies" he explicably clarified that the term "galaxy" is used interchangably with "area"

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

A "denomination" is literally just a name.